A word on individual skill

[Acorn1021]

[QUOTE=Jess Alon;355744]HAHAHAHAHA! Lets see you get better marks then someone shooting an AR15 by using a flintlock.

If you’re saying it’s harder to use a mouse at first you’re a retard. My wife could beat me using a mouse in Brink if I was on a control pad. And she get’s confused as to what’s up and down on the controller. But with a mouse you drag the cross hair to where you want to shoot and you click.

The mouse being intuitive by nature means it’s easier to learn how to use.

Maybe the mechanics of learning all the buttons on the keyboard is slightly harder. But the fact that you are using a mouse and pointing and clicking kind of alleviates that difficulty.

Using a mouse is like shooting a rifle or handgun that has a dialed in laser sight. Fast reflexes and hand eye coordination will win the day for you. It’s intuitive and you point and shoot.

A controller is like trying to learn how to shoot clay pigeons with a shotgun. Until you have that battlesense about it and when and where to shoot then you’re going to get killed alot.[/QUOTE]

And to offset the pownage of a mouse CS makes it ridiculously hard to learn the spreads, ranges, tactics, everything. And quake live has you moving like a sonic the rabbit (you jump so much).

[Aza]

First i think most console users don’t really see our point of of view of things when it comes to this whole controller vs mouse. It’s like…and i really hate to use this analogy, pc gamers are like nascar drivers and we see consolers as people in civics racing around touting they’re the fastest in the world. They’re not. It’s just a fact that both has different skill-caps. You may make the argument that using a mouse is easier to aim, but guess what, the skill cap is much higher now and you’re dealing with everyone having a better aim…play quake 3 where EVERYONE has 50+% accuracy, the metagame kicks in big time and not only does aim matter now everything else comes into play. That’s not to say theres some good people on controllers but as a person who plays fps on pc’s playing on the console isn’t ideal, it always feels like I’m sandbagging myself.

[Apples]

Never seen 3 tanks on refinery anywhere near as effective as 2 on ark. ETQW vehicle spawn design sadly neglects that they could easily enable the later heavy spawns and disable early ones as the map progresses. It’s good that most players are oblivious to the amount heavies/fliers available on maps like outskirts and arc.

QFT

People allways moan that gdf get stomped in first obj of quarry, just bring the tank and the two anansies there plus decent turrets and engies and the generator is almost impossible to destroy…

Peace

[NIDCLXVI]

[QUOTE=Verticae;355079]You realise that its predecessor, ETQW, had even more tactical options than Brink, right?

Allow me to demonstrate with an example; 6v6, Volcano. Attacking team spawn and are faced with a choice: Trickjump East/West/Main, teleport wall, blow seawall, blow main, go through the hills. After the initial push; do you aim to recap the forward spawn, delaying the defenders, or push through to the objective hoping to get a hold around it? What class mix would you use for either tactic? Would you sacrifice 2-3 players to try and hold their spawn? You could also try and lemming your way to the objective; rushing to get a little touch in on it before defenders get you.

And that’s just the metagame. What if during a push on East bunker, two of your teammates get fragged and gibbed? You could try and push on for a little tap on the objective/forward spawn, or selfkill to join in on the spawn so you can attack with full numbers again?

In Brink, you look at a teammate and press F.

gg.[/QUOTE]

QFT. read it and got excited replaying those choices in my head… :stroggbanana: ET:QW the king of games… :oppressor:

[thesuzukimethod]

[QUOTE=Acorn1021;355814]Yes, because we want reality in our games. Stop reaching out for excuses because you are running out of them, and soon you are going to have even stupider excuses.

The only legit one is that you can adjust how fast/slow you aim move with sticks.[/QUOTE]

dude. tone it down a notch. did you read the whole thread? see the whole part where burawura and i hashed it out over diffs? productively?

my comment was more about the psychological orientation to the game and where you perceive your own presence in the game (sorta like the Y invert issue - are you the gun? - normal Y, or are you the vision of the head - invert Y)

on console, the mechanism “feels” as though you are moving the gun and the gun sight (crosshair) that moves around is an extension of the gun.
on pc, the mechanism “feels” as though you are moving the crosshair around and the gun is dragged along with these actions.

This alone helps explain why the spread/accuracy is an issue for pc folks - the feel as though where they are pointed has already taken the randomness out of the equation, and want to see (perhaps quite reasonably, but certainly cognitively) the place where they click receive the bullets. For console, if the metaphor/mechanism/cognitive-orientation is one of setting up the trajectory (rather than pointing to where the bullet will hit), the spread/randomness is 1) less dissonant (cognitively) and 2) reflects what anyone who has aimed a (real) gun knows, they aren’t perfect, have a spread, etc.

The reality is the mouse is a more effective way to quickly click in different locations on your screen, but this “skill”, is highly abstracted, and somehow, the best and the brightest at quickly clicking on the screen (fuq, it could be a set of checkboxes randomly spread around on the screen or an FPS for this particular skill) think they are the MJ (or Kobe, or LBJ, depending on your age) of gaming.

all the metaphors (guns, trikes, nascar?) are a bit (just a bit?) overblown b/c they overemphasize the difference in outcome as somehow reflecting a skill cap (that ignores most of the contextual issues that shape gameplay, OR they use something like QL to prove their point, which is basically a rhythm game/FPS hybrid). how bout programming languages? tools to accomplish an end, some tools are much more effective at accomplishing a particular task, but many different languages can get at a given end, some would just be clunkier than others. all programming languages take some skill to master

anyway

[Verticae]

I could’ve sworn I put it in huge bold letters that this was oriented at the PC crowd. Must be me.

[Apples]

I could’ve sworn I put it in huge bold letters that this was oriented at the PC crowd. Must be me.

Sorry I read “Verticae” and “skill” in the same line and I just stopped reading

[Smoochy]

[QUOTE=RabidAnubis;355740]YOU PLAYED 2142!

THEY HAVE TO DO A REMAKE OF THAT!

I do agree with you. The singleshot weapons take a lot of skill, but most of automatics really depend on reaction time.[/QUOTE]

2 of the bigwigs at dice say its their fave game and many on the bf3 forums want it to. i hope we get it. maybe in 2 years?

imagine titans now with these super graphics

of course they will dumb it down like everything else!

i always mix up my guns in brink. gets boring with the same thing. thats why i have 4 level 20s all with different abilities and classes.

[Smoochy]

[QUOTE=Jess Alon;355741]I play with aim assist off because the cross hairs jitter and it’s actually HARDER to aim at the ones you want to aim at.

But aim assist is minimal compared to some other shooters.[/QUOTE]

all consoles still have aim assist even after the one they let you turn off. the fact is that console pads arent good for aiming. they are great for platform games and stuff like FIFA.

they tend to snap towards heads and even out (smooth) the movement.

the only console game ive found that has none (even built in) was killzone3 which i played with the sharpshooter rifle and ps move. i was kicking pad users butts with that and its still much harder to use than a mouse.

mice are just much more precise. they are designed for pointing (hence the P in WIMP -windows, icons, menus, pointer).

[thesuzukimethod]

There’s been quite a bit of discussion here on personal skill; both when it comes to tactical aspects, as well as to aim. I figured I’d throw in my two cents. Mind you, this is oriented towards PC players. If you want to chip in as a console player, by all means do, but mechanics can be different.

i wanted to chip in b/c thought i had some interesting observations, specifically about the mechanical differences and how this affects player perception. i wont bother you again.

[Smoochy]

[QUOTE=RabidAnubis;355742]I think the mouse is TOO accurate personally.

I do understand where you are coming from, but the issue with the mouse for me is that people become WAY more accurate than in real life. The controller has it’s falls, but I think it is better overall, with quicker access buttons. (Switching weapons, nades)

I do think they should have made Brink on either the consoles or Mac/Pc. Doing both was too much for them.[/QUOTE]

not quicker at button switching. say you are using both thumbsticks, its not easy to access the X O [] buttons very well.

with a keyboard i can even type while running and have 100 keys available i also have a mouse with DPI switches on to adjust sensitivity on the fly and 2 thumb buttons which i have sprint and crouch on, so that takes away from my left hand being over-used

i think its down to how dexterous you are. i work as a developer so i can touch type and can type almost as fast as any secretary.

[Smoochy]

[QUOTE=Jess Alon;355744]HAHAHAHAHA! Lets see you get better marks then someone shooting an AR15 by using a flintlock.

If you’re saying it’s harder to use a mouse at first you’re a retard. My wife could beat me using a mouse in Brink if I was on a control pad. And she get’s confused as to what’s up and down on the controller. But with a mouse you drag the cross hair to where you want to shoot and you click.

The mouse being intuitive by nature means it’s easier to learn how to use.

Maybe the mechanics of learning all the buttons on the keyboard is slightly harder. But the fact that you are using a mouse and pointing and clicking kind of alleviates that difficulty.

Using a mouse is like shooting a rifle or handgun that has a dialed in laser sight. Fast reflexes and hand eye coordination will win the day for you. It’s intuitive and you point and shoot.

A controller is like trying to learn how to shoot clay pigeons with a shotgun. Until you have that battlesense about it and when and where to shoot then you’re going to get killed alot.[/QUOTE]

my first pc FPS was return to castle wolfenstein (not the one SD did - the one before) and me and a mate both played it, one on mouse and one on keys took us a few days to get into the keys. and i was brough up playing games on a BBC back in the 80s, before joysticks came out!

usual keys:

z=left
x=right
;=up
.=down
space to jump

[wolfnemesis75]

Once any conversation becomes about PC vs THE WORLD, the entire thread spins off into oblivion… just step out of the VOID and plant the dang HE charge and blow that “individual’s” face off if he tries to disarm it.

[Tandem]

[QUOTE=RabidAnubis;355742]I think the mouse is TOO accurate personally.
I do understand where you are coming from,
but the issue with the mouse for me is that people
become WAY more accurate than in real life.[/QUOTE]

Weird thing to say.

The only realistic factor in games is the art.
If you honestly think any video-game now or in the future
could ever simulate running around with a gun and shooting at people, then GLHF.

It can be said;
“it’s too easy to aim, in real life it’s difficult, so I like controller, because I like realism.”
Well, why stop there? Do you continue to play in a round after you died once?
Unless your on a 1life server, the answer is no, why? because it’s a video game.

[QUOTE=RabidAnubis;355742]
The controller has it’s falls, but I think it is better overall,
with quicker access buttons. (Switching weapons, nades)[/QUOTE]

It fails the most crucial part of first person shooters.

[QUOTE=RabidAnubis;355742]
I do think they should have made Brink on either the consoles or Mac/Pc.
Doing both was too much for them.[/QUOTE]
A premature release, that’s all.

[Thundermuffin]

[QUOTE=RabidAnubis;355742]I think the mouse is TOO accurate personally.

I do understand where you are coming from, but the issue with the mouse for me is that people become WAY more accurate than in real life. The controller has it’s falls, but I think it is better overall, with quicker access buttons. (Switching weapons, nades)

I do think they should have made Brink on either the consoles or Mac/Pc. Doing both was too much for them.[/QUOTE]

Just so you know our mice actually have buttons built on the sides and near the scroll wheel that makes it even easier to hit. It’s way more comfortable, at least to me, than a controller. It may just be how my hand is use to holding a mouse, but after playing 360 for an hour or two my hand starts to cramp from holding such an awkward controller. That’s the only thing I miss about the PlayStation is their controller; it just worked so much better for me back when I played the PS2.

Take BRINK for example.

mouse1 = shoot
mouse2 = jump
mouse3 = ironsights
mouse4 = switch weapons
mouse5 = reload

The only thing my keyboard does is movement related things (and melee is on spacebar and Ventrilo/TeamSpeak/Mumble is bound to C in their options) and they’re all mapped close together. My abilities sadly have to be on 1 ~ 3 just because the stupid game won’t let me bind abilities to scrollup/scrolldown.

[AmishWarMachine]

One of these days I need to plug in my (PS3) SplitFish controller and see if it does any better in Brink, than the standard controller.

In CoD and BF:BC2 I didn’t see much improvement, but Brink might just be different enough to do well.

[I]EDIT: If you’re unfamiliar w/ the SplitFish controller, you can check it out here: http://www.splitfish.com/index.php/en/products

They apparently now make it for 360, it was PS3 only, previously.[/I]

[MoonOnAStick]

[QUOTE=Smoochy;355952]i was brough up playing games on a BBC back in the 80s, before joysticks came out!

usual keys:

z=left
x=right
;=up
.=down
space to jump

:)[/QUOTE]

Haha, snap*. I still use those keys to this day on games like Super Meat Boy or VVVVVV
It wasn’t until Quake that I realised mouse-look was the way forward for FPS.

*I always had a hell of a job playing on friends’ ZX Spectrums with their default QAOP-Space layout.

[wolfnemesis75]

The controller/keyboard is just a tool.
The mind is the real weapon.
Get Brink.

[Apoc]

Someone in a previous thread summed it up for me, included an analogy about clown shoes and football…anyone remember where it was?

Edit - Found it

Relating to the consoles being harder and therefor requiring more skill argument:

Full post found here by Teoh

[quote=TeoH;346684]
You’re confusing the performance of 2 different control methods with the degree to which they reward player ability. If you made the shotgun do half as much damage on the PC, would it mean that the shotgun took ‘more skill to use’ on the PC? No it would just mean the gun was weaker and took longer to kill anything. See the footballers in clown shoes example, it is ‘harder’ to deliver a fast, accurate cross into the box while wearing 3 foot clown shoes… but that doesn’t mean it would promote ‘skillful play’ if we made clown shoes mandatory footwear for the world cup.[/quote]

[gooey79]

I believe the post is this one.

If you’re playing on a joypad, on a console with autoaim, this discussion doesn’t concern you, it’s literally meaningless to you, the issue of combat skill barely even enters the equation. It’s like putting a football team in 3 foot clown shoes and then discussing the merits of the exact weighting of the competition ball. It doesn’t matter to you and you don’t need to argue with us about it.