A word on individual skill

[Apoc]

I believe the post is this one.

see my edit on prev post

[NthLegion]

The degree of PC elitist douchebaggery in this thread is staggering. Sorry I ever entered the discussion.

[Smoochy]

[QUOTE=MoonOnAStick;356112]Haha, snap*. I still use those keys to this day on games like Super Meat Boy or VVVVVV
It wasn’t until Quake that I realised mouse-look was the way forward for FPS.

*I always had a hell of a job playing on friends’ ZX Spectrums with their default QAOP-Space layout.[/QUOTE]

same, them bloody rubber key speccies eh?

i did like some of their games, attic attack and cauldron and who can forget spy hunter

[Apoc]

The degree of PC elitist douchebaggery in this thread is staggering. Sorry I ever entered the discussion.

Cya!

[Cep]

Been away a day or so, so this is a little late…

I never said that using vehicles doesn’t require skill; it requires skill, but using unlimited vehicles doesn’t because you end up with situations like the above but only multiplied by however many heavies are on the map. On that particular map the defense has 3 hogs, 4~6 icari, 1 flyer, and at least 1 desecrator (I think there’s 2, one at the initial first obj spawn for Strogg and one at the last spawn, but can’t really remember as I always hated playing Island). How would that be fair or even require the least bit of skill? You’d just take everything and camp them at their spawn point.

Well I am glad you agree that it takes skill, that’s all I was getting at. The OP originally dismisses vehicle use as skill less and that’s just not true, which is what my original post said.

Your original post however made out that by having 3 heavy’s in comp it meant no skill, well to be honest I have yet to see a comp rule list that has ever allowed more than 1 heavy, some don’t even allow any flyers which is why I dismissed your post originally, it seemed more sarcastic then constructive.

How does that video not prove that you can camp objectives easily? You said “I find it really difficult to believe anyone could camp an objective with them easily,” and I showed you a video of someone camping without that much effort on their part. The ride up there doesn’t really matter as mL was probably able to camp the entire team the whole way up there with the tank, anyways.

What I said is that it “cannot be done easily”, I never said it was impossible. Your video is misleading since mainLine are/were one of the best comp teams but to actually drive a tank into that area, let alone under fire is not as easy as your video makes out.

Don’t get me wrong I know it can be done but it requires skill to get their in the first place and that’s what I am hitting at with my post. To say vehicles ruin comp or require no skill is the key statement I am trying to dismiss but I guess if your playing some rule set that allows all vehicles like in pubs then well… I guess rapeorama is on but I personally have never seen those kind of rule sets.

“A vehicle on its own” isn’t really specific enough for me to really comment on, so I’ll comment on both ways I took the comment; a vehicle out in the open with no support will most likely get stomped, yes, but 1 vehicle with some teammates near by won’t.

So again your supporting my original comment, it takes skill to use them or requires coordinated teamwork for them to be effective.

Think of Area 22 2nd obj where you have to construct the laser; the cyclops can easily dominate that whole objective area because it can come up the road and have a clear line of sight down the way (plus he’ll have shields on his legs most likely as long as they’re placed low enough he can shoot over when in the crouched position). The tank will have more maneuverability because of his position up on the hill (and the fact he’s a tank lol), but there’s those silos in his way from getting a hit on the cyclops + the angle at which he’s trying to aim will be difficult to hit depending on exactly where he’s placed. Again, the cyclops easily dominated the objective if the driver of it was competent.

Well I must concede that you are right about some of these situations here but you still seem to be supporting what I was originally saying, that it takes skill and its not just a matter of jumping in a vehicle, driving up to an objective and sitting there since you say…

“Again, the cyclops easily dominated the objective if the driver of it was competent”

So you do agree it requires skill and is not just a case of if vehicles are in play then comp/pro goes out the window?

Medium vehicles is where you take out wheels and there’s no issue with those; you can’t do that with heavies. The only really easy map I can think of to take out the other teams’ heavy is 1st objective on Sewer where you have the ability to get up on that roof and emp + throw a vampire on him. But even on that map the GDF tank is able to get up on the hill and just reign fire down on the other team; it doesn’t matter whether the tank driver is good or not, because you’re bound to hit someone as they’re all in that general area.

That’s true but their are two counters to the tank in that situation (without using a violator) that I can think of off the bat. The first is place a dessi inside the first building, siege mode and just return fire. The cover the building provides the dessi is effective enough to protect it from the tank but is vulnerable to infantry round the back to prevent strogg doing what you suggest the tank is doing.

The second is to sit around the corner behind the big block in front of EMP to avoid incoming tank fire although for this to work you have to hold the roof, which can be done by placing support in the building (again protected from tank fire).

[QUOTE=Thundermuffin;355460]I don’t mind vehicles at all in games where they actually fit.

All I played was promod + TGL/STA, by the way, and all the vehicles did was detract from the game. It wasn’t that we couldn’t take them down (We could), it’s just no one on our team or the teams we would scrim really liked the vehicles. They’re cool in Battlefield, because it’s played at a different pace and the whole style of gameplay is different, but these types of games don’t require mannable vehicles. ET games are about the gunplay, not the vehicle play.[/quote]

I agree it depends on what your playing, so for example a 4v4 Pro scrimm, vehicles are not really adding anything and then it comes down to gunplay. In battles or pubs vehicle skill and counter skill is undeniable.

My main point though is that the OP suggesting vehicle use is non-skilled, is incorrect. Dependant on what rule set your playing I can accept your argument that too many vehicles just become a sit fest but then you have to ask, is the rule set appropriate for pro/comp play?

[Thundermuffin]

[QUOTE=Cep;356487]Been away a day or so, so this is a little late…

Well I am glad you agree that it takes skill, that’s all I was getting at. The OP originally dismisses vehicle use as skill less and that’s just not true, which is what my original post said.

Your original post however made out that by having 3 heavy’s in comp it meant no skill, well to be honest I have yet to see a comp rule list that has ever allowed more than 1 heavy, some don’t even allow any flyers which is why I dismissed your post originally, it seemed more sarcastic then constructive.[/QUOTE]
He didn’t dismiss all vehicles in his original post; he dismissed fliers, which let’s be honest shouldn’t be allowed in competitive play. All they did was dominate at QUAKECon (or so I’ve heard), because even with the ability to lock on and shoot them down, it would take 2 rocket launchers as they had flares + the entire map to run around and lose the missile or build up another flare.

There wasn’t a comp rule set that did that, but your post made it sound as if competitive players aren’t able to deal with vehicles; we are, we just don’t like them because it takes away from the gunplay which is what ET games are about. The only thing I’m glad CoD4+ did for the mainstream gaming is they removed vehicles, because hopefully more developers will follow suit and realize they aren’t the greatest thing in the world.

[QUOTE=Cep;356487]
So again your supporting my original comment, it takes skill to use them or requires coordinated teamwork for them to be effective.[/QUOTE]
Never said it didn’t, but you implied comp players can’t deal with more than 1 vehicle. It isn’t that we can’t, it’s just that RtCW and WE:T didn’t have them, and there was no need for them. They slow the pace of games down because instead of just going for the objectives, you have to go for the vehicles then the objectives.

[QUOTE=Cep;356487]
So you do agree it requires skill and is not just a case of if vehicles are in play then comp/pro goes out the window?[/QUOTE]
It really depends on your opinion about vehicles. I hate them so any game that really uses them kind of irks me now after having to deal with them in ET:QW comp. ET:QW did vehicles the best out of the games I’ve played, but look at BC2’s vehicles. You’re pretty screwed if you happen upon a tank in that game and that really, really sucks, because even if you’re the best player in the game you will always die to a tank. That irks me, if I’m playing vs a better player he should always win no matter what, unless I have the upper hand by catching him off guard or landing lucky shots (not lucky as in “lotto spread gave me 3 headshots and only gave him 2”).

That’s true but their are two counters to the tank in that situation (without using a violator) that I can think of off the bat. The first is place a dessi inside the first building, siege mode and just return fire. The cover the building provides the dessi is effective enough to protect it from the tank but is vulnerable to infantry round the back to prevent strogg doing what you suggest the tank is doing.

But see that’s the thing, the Strogg team loses 2 players to vehicles and that makes it so the GDF have to lose 2 or 3 (at least 1 rocket launcher, 1 field ops, and 1 sniper for emp) at least to stop them. See how that would slow the pace down?

[Verticae]

My main point though is that the OP suggesting vehicle use is non-skilled, is incorrect. Dependant on what rule set your playing I can accept your argument that too many vehicles just become a sit fest but then you have to ask, is the rule set appropriate for pro/comp play?

Yeah, thanks for countering what definitely was the bullet point of my argument. For the record; I was talking about flyers only, and I probably should’ve specified that I was referring to the pre-1.5 ones.

[BMXer]

I personally think the vehicles in ETQW comp were awesome. But thats after they were restricted to a point that skilled vehicle play could actually shine.

ETQW was/is an amazing game on so many levels. I personally think the community just needed, and still does, a new infantry game. However awesome the vehicles where in ETQW, they will always get dismissed because everyone has such a huge desire to play a new game that has great gun play… like W:ET and RTCW.
If ETQW had come after W:ET2 and/or RTCW2 and maybe even after a properly done Brink, the community might be ready to accept really well implemented vehicles along with the amazing gun play from their first games. But no, they jumped pasted what everyone really wanted/needed and overcomplicated everything to a point of fail.

But tbh, the only real hope is that id does RTCW2 and doesn’t let SD, Raven or Endrant anywhere near it!

Bottom line, we need more GOOD infantry only games to saturate the market so that people will accept stuff like vehicles.

[Humate]

Played every single comp ruleset for etqw, and personally the no titan/desie/cyclops/flyers ruleset was perfect. Light vehicles provided transport, without being a major factor. The large maps still provided a great scope of tactics, deployables still had their place. It was a more intense experience with this ruleset, because when you have a beast tanker on your team - you have the luxury to pretty much do whatever you like as an infantry player. It attracts all the attention of the opposing team, leaving you as the infantry player with ‘open shots’ on the enemy. To put it bluntly - its too easy.

[Thundermuffin]

[QUOTE=BMXer;356599]

But tbh, the only real hope is that id does RTCW2 and doesn’t let SD, Raven or Endrant anywhere near it![/QUOTE]

No worries about Endrant as they’re gone now, lol.

I kinda wish it would be an in-house id multiplayer only game with Nerve (or whatever studio the people from RtCW times are at) helping them do some of the stuff, just because they did the original RtCW MP. Release it for 15$ or 20$ with an SDK on day 1 and you’d end up selling tons of copies.

[burawura]

Well, RO2 has vehicles and is “realism-based” but I think it has the best chance to be a decent competitive FPS this year (it’s PC only and mods are already in the works). Hope you guys check it out