A word on individual skill

(Cep) #41

There is no way on earth you have played ET:QW with three tanks and since vehicles in the game are very weak to sustained ground fire or a single rocket I find it really difficult to believe anyone could camp an objective with them easily.

(thesuzukimethod) #42

word.

well…

(burawura) #43

[QUOTE=thesuzukimethod;355351]
well…[/QUOTE]
Well…at least I am trying to make it more focused :stuck_out_tongue:
People are confusing tactics with skill (execution of those tactics), and it’s bogging down the thread.

(thesuzukimethod) #44

upon further reflection, there is an embedded subjectivity within this discussion. indeed a hypothetical situation, but sans control groups or even organized method/design… more observation (accumulated anecdotal evidence counts, but it’s hard to sep from subjective opinion - especially if the opinion shapes the way you experience the “hypothetical”).

i skew empiricist myself, and what would be interesting to know (PC Stats site…argh!) is how players/teams have matched up against each other in repeated iterations looking for evidence of either stochasticity or bias… more specifically - if you ran multiple matches between two players/teams that were evenly matched, and compared this to a series of matches between two players/teams that were unevenly matched (matched refers to player/team skill), at what skill difference (or lack thereof) does the randomness of the game take over player/team skill. i.e. if we assume there is a low skill cap - how low?

anyway - far more interested in this sort of thing than i should be. back to work.

(thesuzukimethod) #45

[QUOTE=burawura;355356]Well…at least I am trying to make it more focused :stuck_out_tongue:
People are confusing tactics with skill (execution of those tactics), and it’s bogging down the thread.[/QUOTE]

i hope my “well” comment was taken as friendly and not too snarky (i’m a sarcastic bastard, but the tone of voice HTML tags are poorly developed as of yet) lol

also wanted to add: I’m not trying to undermine/disagree with the ‘randomness’ or the low skill cap idea, although I do think the context matters (or at least it affects the way people perceive the game). . Lately have played 8v8 with FF off, and 2-3 v 2-3 with FF on, and the perceived level of skill to succeed in these two contexts seems vastly different. I think if people are raging in 8v8 games with FF off, it isnt the same experience given the lack of penalty for imprecise shooting. Maybe after I’ve played a few more matches of small teams w/ FF on, I’ll see it more. (i’m always open to changing my mind…lol)

(burawura) #46

Yeah, it would be interesting to see some actual empirical data…but we can do a decent job of being more objective simply by playing more and with better players. That’s why I’ve been reading what the comp players have been saying about this game since the beginning, since they’ve probably the most experience on the matter due to sheer time played (whether it be in Brink itself or another game).
The comp players were adamant that the guns sucked; I didn’t really start noticing this until I’d played enough (I was still learning and improving, that was enough to keep me interested and not too worried about the guns). But I’ve seen enough now (and my improvement has slowed enough) to realize their observations are valid. It just took me awhile to come to agreement on this; I never played QW:ET or W:ET so I had alot to learn.

Using the same weapon system for a casual console game and a competitive PC game was a terrible idea. The weapon balancing on PC vs console needs to be different.

(Thundermuffin) #47

There’s a tank completely blocking the objective as the guy transfers; it took down 4 of them with 3 shots (plus a few shots from the MG). Still find it difficult to believe you can get camped?

Have you never played the game with a Cyclops with the shields on the legs? Or have you never played against a hog? Heck, later in the vehicle a hog takes out like the whole other team in 1 hit (2:57 if you want to see).

I’m curious if you’ve ever even played ET:QW competitively, because it was a whole different world. Tanks are easy to take out in pubs, but in comp it’s a lot different because you don’t have 4 people with rocket launchers or 3 oppressors/field ops.

(thesuzukimethod) #48

The good thing is SD devs have stated (somewhere) that PC specific tweaks were on the horizon. “when?”, of course, is another story.

i really wish we had a group of people who played both systems and were good at both systems…mainly b/c i want to know how much of a difference it makes (not necessarily b/c it matters, more out of curiosity). i realize the interface shapes this significantly (mouse v. controller) and I for one, have my controller sensitivity maxed out for this reason, but it still doesn’t replicate the quick turn of the mouse. fact is, even when I’m taking it seriously, i like to kick it on the couch while i play (i’m hardcore casual, lol)

the hard part is that there are some console gamers who are really good (i’ve played against them more than been one), and what would also be really interesting (and i dont totally understand why this cant work (in general, i understand brink is set p2p)) is for cross platform multiplayer. then we could veer from hypothetical to starkly real, even if we had to slink home with our console tail between our legs. :cool:

(Thundermuffin) #49

[QUOTE=thesuzukimethod;355389]

the hard part is that there are some console gamers who are really good (i’ve played against them more than been one), and what would also be really interesting (and i dont totally understand why this cant work (in general, i understand brink is set p2p)) is for cross platform multiplayer. they we could veer from hypothetical to starkly real, even if we had to slink home with our console tail between our legs. :cool:[/QUOTE]

MS had tried cross platform play, but anyone with a controller got dominated no matter how good they were, lol; you can probably search for an article about it, because there was one a couple months ago on like Kotaku/Joystiq or RockPaperShotgun.

(Cep) #50

[QUOTE=Thundermuffin;355384]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfrgC4Dve2w&t=35s

There’s a tank completely blocking the objective as the guy transfers; it took down 4 of them with 3 shots (plus a few shots from the MG). Still find it difficult to believe you can get camped?

Have you never played the game with a Cyclops with the shields on the legs? Or have you never played against a hog? Heck, later in the vehicle a hog takes out like the whole other team in 1 hit (2:57 if you want to see).

I’m curious if you’ve ever even played ET:QW competitively, because it was a whole different world. Tanks are easy to take out in pubs, but in comp it’s a lot different because you don’t have 4 people with rocket launchers or 3 oppressors/field ops.[/QUOTE]

The video doesn’t appear to show anything other than a tank at transmit being hit by small arms fire and three nade hits. The number of kills is irrelevant if people are dumb enough to run in squad towards it.

A vehicle on its own will get whipped pub or not. Your comment made out that by allowing vehicles all that happens is they all get sat on objectives, that just isn’t true. In fact the video supports what I said originally since it takes skill for the driver to actually reach that objective without getting fragged first.

I’m not sure what mod you’ve played where they have uber tough vehicles and I am not doubting that if whatever you have played buffed them to the extreme then tha’ts all they would be used for but if that is the case then that’s down to the league rules, not the vehicles themselves.

I have played comp both PRO MOD and TGL rules and the main aim where medium vehicles is concerned is to take out their wheels. The single heavies that are allowed, its all about nading.

At the end of the day it still does not detract from my earlier statement that to say using vehicles requires no skill is a joke.

(burawura) #51

Controller = mega frustration for me when it comes to fps games. I increase the sensitivity high enough to turn properly, but then I can’t aim precisely. The analog stick is way too restrictive a control method for me when it comes to looking around in first person games. However, I will say that the controller’s analog stick for movement in first person games is arguably superior to the keyboard’s wasd method.

(thesuzukimethod) #52

word. There was an article about the tech behind balancing these movement issues on the controller (that i can no longer find) - basically - how much to slow the movement of the aim when you get close to a target…too much snap and it feels crazy, too little, and the casual gamer runs away shaking fist = no sequel/improvements/etc

of course, some of us turn aim assist off (i’ll choose my target, thank you), but hey. :slight_smile:

my buddy (has pc/xbox/ps3) cant for the life of him understand why i play FPS on console (he plays platformers/racers/etc on console, saves FPS/RPG for compu)…b/c it’s hard to run the mouse/keyboard combo from the couch. lol

of course, now I’ve unfocused the discussion since it started as the outcome of mechanics (accuracy vs. skill) not the mechanism to achieve said accuracy (or to demonstrate lack of said skill) but hey. like i said:
well…

(Thundermuffin) #53

[QUOTE=Cep;355420]The video doesn’t appear to show anything other than a tank at transmit being hit by small arms fire and three nade hits. The number of kills is irrelevant if people are dumb enough to run in squad towards it.

A vehicle on its own will get whipped pub or not. Your comment made out that by allowing vehicles all that happens is they all get sat on objectives, that just isn’t true. In fact the video supports what I said originally since it takes skill for the driver to actually reach that objective without getting fragged first.

I’m not sure what mod you’ve played where they have uber tough vehicles and I am not doubting that if whatever you have played buffed them to the extreme then tha’ts all they would be used for but if that is the case then that’s down to the league rules, not the vehicles themselves.

I have played comp both PRO MOD and TGL rules and the main aim where medium vehicles is concerned is to take out their wheels. The single heavies that are allowed, its all about nading.

At the end of the day it still does not detract from my earlier statement that to say using vehicles requires no skill is a joke.[/QUOTE]
I never said that using vehicles doesn’t require skill; it requires skill, but using unlimited vehicles doesn’t because you end up with situations like the above but only multiplied by however many heavies are on the map. On that particular map the defense has 3 hogs, 4~6 icari, 1 flyer, and at least 1 desecrator (I think there’s 2, one at the initial first obj spawn for Strogg and one at the last spawn, but can’t really remember as I always hated playing Island). How would that be fair or even require the least bit of skill? You’d just take everything and camp them at their spawn point.

How does that video not prove that you can camp objectives easily? You said “I find it really difficult to believe anyone could camp an objective with them easily,” and I showed you a video of someone camping without that much effort on their part. The ride up there doesn’t really matter as mL was probably able to camp the entire team the whole way up there with the tank, anyways.

“A vehicle on its own” isn’t really specific enough for me to really comment on, so I’ll comment on both ways I took the comment; a vehicle out in the open with no support will most likely get stomped, yes, but 1 vehicle with some teammates near by won’t. Think of Area 22 2nd obj where you have to construct the laser; the cyclops can easily dominate that whole objective area because it can come up the road and have a clear line of sight down the way (plus he’ll have shields on his legs most likely as long as they’re placed low enough he can shoot over when in the crouched position). The tank will have more maneuverability because of his position up on the hill (and the fact he’s a tank lol), but there’s those silos in his way from getting a hit on the cyclops + the angle at which he’s trying to aim will be difficult to hit depending on exactly where he’s placed. Again, the cyclops easily dominated the objective if the driver of it was competent.

Medium vehicles is where you take out wheels and there’s no issue with those; you can’t do that with heavies. The only really easy map I can think of to take out the other teams’ heavy is 1st objective on Sewer where you have the ability to get up on that roof and emp + throw a vampire on him. But even on that map the GDF tank is able to get up on the hill and just reign fire down on the other team; it doesn’t matter whether the tank driver is good or not, because you’re bound to hit someone as they’re all in that general area.

I don’t mind vehicles at all in games where they actually fit.

All I played was promod + TGL/STA, by the way, and all the vehicles did was detract from the game. It wasn’t that we couldn’t take them down (We could), it’s just no one on our team or the teams we would scrim really liked the vehicles. They’re cool in Battlefield, because it’s played at a different pace and the whole style of gameplay is different, but these types of games don’t require mannable vehicles. ET games are about the gunplay, not the vehicle play.

There’s a reason why everyone loved Salvage and fast_volcano and there’s also a reason why every map but those 2 revolved around getting your heavy to the frontlines as soon as possible.

(Verticae) #54

If you’re wondering about the flyer comment, check dignitas vs 4Kings on Valley pre-league rules. I wish I had a link, but I’m afraid I don’t right now. Suffice to say, the tormentor whoring was horrible, especially since it’s childishly easy to stay out of range of any RL fire.

(NthLegion) #55

[QUOTE=burawura;355222]Tactics is more about having the appropriate knowledge base and making the correct decisions based off that knowledge. Doing this in a fast-paced dynamic setting can be considered somewhat skillful but nevertheless it’s still just knowledge and decision-making. Aiming, on the other hand, is much more about raw precision and reaction time than thinking and decision-making. This is why people generally talk about aim when they talk about skill.

Therefore, it makes sense that skilled players get frustrated with Brink because it’s not rewarding their superior reaction time and precision in the same way that it’s rewarding their superior knowledge and decision-making. A good action game should reward reaction time and precision control of the interface just as much as knowledge of the game and real-time decision making.[/QUOTE]

The definition of skill is broad enough to cover both tactics and aiming. What you’re really saying is that Brink does not reward superior hand-eye coordination. And, like I said, I would like to see a tighter spread on most of the assault rifles.

(TruGamer97) #56

[QUOTE=Verticae;354728]There’s been quite a bit of discussion here on personal skill; both when it comes to tactical aspects, as well as to aim. I figured I’d throw in my two cents. Mind you, this is oriented towards PC players. If you want to chip in as a console player, by all means do, but mechanics can be different.

I’ll kick it off with the dreaded comparison to other games; but not in terms of mechanics. Rather, I’d like to take a closer look at the common complaints seen in gaming communities. One may argue that that’s a very subjective topic, but I’ll try to pick out the complaints that you’ll read about the moment you start playing, be it through server messages, fellow players or community forums.

We’ll start with a very well-known one: Camping. Common in a fair number of popular games, but for this example, we’ll use Counterstrike, seeing as pretty much everyone knows the game. The amount of people having trouble with this, has reached a point where popular server-side admin mods have automated anti-camping systems. Why do people dislike camping so much? Because it’s too easy. It takes no skill, and players don’t like putting in effort moving towards their goal if their opponent is barely even touching the WASD keys.

Moving along, we come to Call of Duty. I’m sure many of you are familiar with this game, and in particular, with the noobtube (or rifle-mounted grenade launcher). This weapon is banned from use on an excessively high number of servers, and why? Because players don’t want to put in effort trying to take down their opponent, when their opponent only needs to shoot once in their general direction.

I could go on about this for a fairly long time, with things such as ET’s panzerfaust, ETQW’s flying vehicles, Battlefield’s flyers, Bad Company 2’s M60, Day Of Defeat’s assault spray… Thing is, there’s a lot of games where players have had trouble with elements in the game. The general consensus to these things, is that players tend to dislike it when other players have to put in significantly less effort than they do in order to beat them. From the past, though, we can also see that through server rules and mods, these items are moderated; either through being outright banned, or from being restricted in number/power/etc.

How does this apply to Brink, you ask? It relates to the relatively low skill ceiling this game currently has. All the aforementioned problems come from players feeling that despite the effort they put in, they’re getting beaten by people who aren’t trying: their individual skill is not rewarded. Brink does the same thing; no matter how well you aim, how well you move; the outcome of a duel is still heavily dependant on whether or not you happen to randomly hit a head.

Of course, Brink has a heavy tactical aspect, but does this rule out the need for individual skill? When I look at games with similar aspects, such as Enemy Territory and its sequel, Quake Wars, there’s a distinct flow to the game, where individual skill was needed to perform smooth team-based action - or disrupt it. With this style, individual performace is rewarded, and teamwork still essential. All in all, it’s a much more gratifying mix for the player; it’s part of that mix that makes a game ‘fun’.[/QUOTE] Wait the tittle says a word that’s not a word :frowning:

(Crytiqal) #57

Last objective on refinery.
3 tanks spawncamp would be so “pro” and competative

(Apocalypse_Pony) #58

A little VIDEO on the subject.

(Tandem) #59

EMP’s only.

I’d like to see those games.
Laughs@ XBox Team “DeSTROYYYeD!”

(Jess Alon) #60

[QUOTE=Crytiqal;355577]Last objective on refinery.
3 tanks spawncamp would be so “pro” and competative[/QUOTE]