A word on individual skill

(Gradis) #21

how about a high “tactics cap” lol cough and high aiming cap. sounds like skill to me

(Crytiqal) #22

With more spread I would say less tactic plays its role.

Now, you can just run around the corner and take your chances who comes out on top.

In ETQW you really had to look out for enemies who were watching doorways and you’d had to flank and coordinate where the enemy was positioned cause a small fraction of a second could get someone the upperhand and victory.

(jazevec) #23

In ET:QW machine pistol was an awesome short-ranged weapon. It had 0.5 maximum spread (compared to 4 of assault rifle). Both weapons had the same damage, but machine pistol had a smaller clip and quickly lost damage with range. So, at the same time machine pistol was very good at short range but bad at medium, all with reduced spread.

(Smoochy) #24

[QUOTE=*goo;354738]Taking aside Brink, in every example you’ve given; the ‘offending’ player can be beaten.

Camping isn’t necessarily easy. A highly skilled player will overcome a low skilled player in most situations. For ‘noob tubers’ there’s perks to help counter the damage. For vehicles, there’s vehicles on your own team; artillery and rocket launchers…

I put it down to laziness on the part of the complainer, to be honest.[/QUOTE]

but the thing is most games have a flaw somewhere. in bc2 its the ease of sniping. yes, we can go after snipers and mess about find the hill they are hiding on but its zero fun. fun is what gaming is about. being headshot by someone you cant even see because they have a 12x scope and look like a bush just isnt what i call fun.

i think this is why brink feels more fun than any FPS ive played since bf2142 (missed out on qw:et, just bought it on steam last night! :)). i rarely feel cheated or ripped off. sniping is easy in brink but not as effective as in some games and are much easier to counter with the small maps.

i think generally in brink the best equipped player with the most skill will win. i can take out a heavy with a pistol as a light, because i can outshoot and out manouvre him. burst shooting will often beat a pray and sprayer etc.

(sereNADE) #25

Fine, give everyone an instagib shock rifle and call it a day.

(tokamak) #26

I’d still like to have someone explain to me why the hell camping is an issue when the whole point of the game is fighting over locations.

(burawura) #27

Tactics is more about having the appropriate knowledge base and making the correct decisions based off that knowledge. Doing this in a fast-paced dynamic setting can be considered somewhat skillful but nevertheless it’s still just knowledge and decision-making. Aiming, on the other hand, is much more about raw precision and reaction time than thinking and decision-making. This is why people generally talk about aim when they talk about skill.

Therefore, it makes sense that skilled players get frustrated with Brink because it’s not rewarding their superior reaction time and precision in the same way that it’s rewarding their superior knowledge and decision-making. A good action game should reward reaction time and precision control of the interface just as much as knowledge of the game and real-time decision making.

(Jess Alon) #28

I like that it’s a little difficult to take someone out with a l33t headshot from across the map. I should be able to take someone out by shooting them center mass with a rockstedi before they can line up a head shot. In real life sniper rifles are powerful… BUT it takes time and skill to line up that shot. And in games like GOW2 I hate that someone can run and get a headshot with the sniper. They come around the corner and your head is gone before you get a shot off. That’s not fun to play if that person just plays that one trick over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over until you don’t actually rage quit. But you get bored with attempting to play the game when someone basically has a God button. It’s not even exactly skill. It’s memorizing distances and timing.

I’ll give it to some of you guys that you are brilliant tacticians. And you are very skilled to boot. And you want to be able to turn the tide with your aiming skills and tactics.

But I think that some of the design choices in the game were made to discourage cheap tactics. And though that lowers the game quality for experienced players. It makes it enjoyable overall for the majority.

BUT I think SD needs to release a “hardcore” mode or something in which the spread is significantly lower and weapons are more tailored for their style of gameplay. So that the remainder of the gamers that play Brink can still enjoy the game.

(burawura) #29

I think you’re confused. Experienced players that want skill to be rewarded in this game also do not want cheap tactics to be rewarded.

Yes, discouraging cheap tactics is good. But the topic is skill, and skill just doesn’t have much to do with tactics. Tactics is more a function of knowledge and experience than skill.

(QUIK420) #30

I disagree with the whole aim at center mass is better / more effective then aiming at the head in Brink. I primarily use the Kross as my secondary and have seen firsthand how much easier it is to down someone when aiming at their head as opposed to their chest. Maybe its because I dont use the Carb9 or the other SMGs as much and also fire in bursts even when hip-firing. If you are aiming at the head and firing in burst your bullets will in fact hit the head most of the time. If you are holding down the trigger on a carb9 or Tampa while running around and aiming at some1s head of course more bullets are gong to be random so its better to aim for the chest. So in conclusion burst fire for the winnnnnnnnnnn

(burawura) #31

Nope. Yes, if you take the time to aim after each burst, you will be more accurate and hit the head more often. Nobody’s going to argue that with you. The issue is that players die faster to center-of-mass spray fire than head-aimed burst fire at a high level of play (where individual skill approaches the game’s skill cap). This is a direct result of the excessive spread and in some cases absurdly low accuracy of the weapons.

The Tampa is a good example. It’s the strongest SMG now on the PC, so it WILL win in CQC situations against any other gun except a shotgun. But its use is laughable. You literally just need to get to within 5m or so of the target, hold down the trigger, and keep your aim at center of mass. There is very little skill involved in this, yet it allows smart lights that close distance and pick their fights to dominate cqc situations.

So that being said, envision a situation in which two tampa users showdown in a cqc situation. Due to the Tampa’s huge spread, the player that bursts and aims for the head will lose EVERY TIME to the guy that sprays and aims for center of mass, simply because he won’t be doing as much damage per second. This is less of an issue with the more accurate weapons in Brink, but the fact remains that the combat in the game is mostly up close and personal, and therefore the excessive spread has a major adverse effect on the combat.

(Cep) #32

I think I would disagree about the flyers in ET:QW (to some degree tankers) since to actually operate these vehicles requires some considerable skill which offsets the argument that it requires less effort on the attackers part.

Rocket snipers (as they are known in ET:QW at least) are usually the ones who get targeted by this nonsense of being skill-less. I on the other hand find the argument laughable since having tried to rocket sniper myself it actually does require an awful lot of skill to fire the RL/Obliterator freestyle and especially over distance since you need to compensate for drop.

I hate the argument against vehicles made by most scrimmers. Basically if you are not skilled enough to know how to counter a vehicle, you aren’t a pro.

(Thundermuffin) #33

Don’t play the real life card here; in real life we wouldn’t be parkouring with machine guns on our back, nor would we have to actually escort a bot to do something. We’d just use remote controls. The real life card never works in games besides ARMA II.

It takes just as much skill to consistently keep your crosshair at head level as it does aiming a sniper; think about it in most games the snipers are still and not moving at all, yet the people with SMGs are strafing, weaving and jumping.

Yes, because having to deal with 3 tanks makes comp even more pro. It doesn’t; it makes it less about individual and team skill and more about who can deny an area with the most amount of spammable vehicles.

(QUIK420) #34

[QUOTE=burawura;355248]Nope. Yes, if you take the time to aim after each burst, you will be more accurate and hit the head more often. Nobody’s going to argue that with you. The issue is that players die faster to center-of-mass spray fire than head-aimed burst fire at a high level of play (where individual skill approaches the game’s skill cap). This is a direct result of the excessive spread and in some cases absurdly low accuracy of the weapons.

The Tampa is a good example. It’s the strongest SMG now on the PC, so it WILL win in CQC situations against any other gun except a shotgun. But its use is laughable. You literally just need to get to within 5m or so of the target, hold down the trigger, and keep your aim at center of mass. There is very little skill involved in this, yet it allows smart lights that close distance and pick their fights to dominate cqc situations.

So that being said, envision a situation in which two tampa users showdown in a cqc situation. Due to the Tampa’s huge spread, the player that bursts and aims for the head will lose EVERY TIME to the guy that sprays and aims for center of mass, simply because he won’t be doing as much damage per second. This is less of an issue with the more accurate weapons in Brink, but the fact remains that the combat in the game is mostly up close and personal, and therefore the excessive spread has a major adverse effect on the combat.[/QUOTE]

Your Tampa example is spot on but I also disagree with it. If you are using the Tampa you know that it has a ridonculous (had to create a word for how ridiculous it is) spread when fired continuously so if you are in CQC and try to burst for the head of course you will lose to someone whos using the same gun but whos putting their nozle up to you and holding down the shoot button.

However, in the same situation but using a different gun I think the outcome would be different. Lets say both players same situation but this time using the Kross. The Kross has a much much much smaller spread then the Tampa. In the same situation a person who is bursting (even if its long burts) can easily win aiming more towards the upper body / head over someone whos holding down the trigger aiming at center mass. The tampa is so random that to try and burst fire it in CQC is insane because the spread opens to its almost full circle after the first one or two shots as opposed to the Kross which has a much smaller spread and the circle opens A LOT more gradually and once fully open is much smaller then that of the Tampa. So like you said if someone chooses to use a gun with a ton of spread but wants to fire it like an accurate one then that’s their fault. Let the noobs use the Tampa, Galactic, Carb9 and spray-n-pray while aiming at center mass while those of us who are super cool can use the Kross, Balpaun, Carb9 and burst fire their heads off. Heck I aim for the head sometimes while holding down my trigger for the Kross and because its way more accurate and has a slower spread then most other SMGs I can wreak havoc over most people aiming at center mass with the Carb9. Couple that with my uber ability to strafe like a madman (as a medium gasp!) and Im a machine!:infiltrator:

(burawura) #35

[QUOTE=QUIK420;355301]Your Tampa example is spot on but I also disagree with it. If you are using the Tampa you know that it has a ridonculous (had to create a word for how ridiculous it is) spread when fired continuously so if you are in CQC and try to burst for the head of course you will lose to someone whos using the same gun but whos putting their nozle up to you and holding down the shoot button.

Let the noobs use the Tampa, Galactic, Carb9 and spray-n-pray while aiming at center mass while those of us who are super cool can use the Kross, Balpaun, Carb9 and burst fire their heads off. [/QUOTE]

I’m telling you, the same thing that happens with the Tampa generally happens with basically all the guns at their respective effective ranges. The difference with the Kross is that the range is not point blank like with the Tampa, but midrange. Two Kross users trying to strafe-shoot each other from 15m away: the one aiming for center of mass and spraying will always beat the one aiming for head and bursting simply because they are doing more dps.

Do you play on PC? Because I’d rather be a “noob” doing all the killing and winning than a “super cool” doing all the respawning. It’s a different game on the PC. You gotta go with what works, even though it’s dumb and skillless. This is why PC players are upset.

(QUIK420) #36

[QUOTE=burawura;355312]I’m telling you, the same thing that happens with the Tampa generally happens with basically all the guns at their respective effective ranges. The difference with the Kross is that the range is not point blank like with the Tampa, but midrange. Two Kross users trying to strafe-shoot each other from 15m away: the one aiming for center of mass and spraying will always beat the one aiming for head and bursting simply because they are doing more dps.

Do you play on PC? Because I’d rather be a “noob” doing all the killing and winning than a “super cool” doing all the respawning. It’s a different game on the PC. You gotta go with what works, even though it’s dumb and skillless. This is why PC players are upset.[/QUOTE]

I am on the PS3 so I cant talk for the PC. But all I know is that I pretty much only use ANY smg for CQC no matter what it is. They dont have respective ranges for me the respective ranges are for the different gun types. To me it goes like this SMGa & handguns & shotties are CQC, AR are Medium or long, and snipers and handguns are long range. Yes sometimes I use SMGs for medium or medium/long range if Im out of ammo but when Im doing that Im not hip-firing Im ADS so the whole spread thing doesn’t matter as much. The guns are different and you must use them all differently. If you are using all the guns in the same manner then theres no surprise your tactics arent working (not you specifically but the yous of the world lol). If you use a Tampa strategy wihle using another gun then you shold just create another strategy for that gun.

Like I said I kill many carb9 using, spary n praying, center mass aiming people with my Kross either by aiming at the upper body / head or by aiming at center mass myself. The difference is that I know the ranges and spread of the Kross like the back of my hand which makes me lethal with it. I have used the Tampa many times and HATE it because the bullets dont go where I aim them. If aiming at center mass with the Tampa racks you up kills more power to ya (been on the receiving end of a light sliding into me with a Tampa on full auto many a time). But the way I rack up kills is with the Kross aimed at the upper body / head and I know that people go down way quicker then if I am aiming at them with the same gun at center mass. But thats on the PS3 :slight_smile:

(alberto) #37

this is sad but true…

(burawura) #38

[QUOTE=QUIK420;355321]The guns are different and you must use them all differently. If you are using all the guns in the same manner then theres no surprise your tactics arent working (not you specifically but the yous of the world lol). If you use a Tampa strategy wihle using another gun then you shold just create another strategy for that gun.

Like I said I kill many carb9 using, spary n praying, center mass aiming people with my Kross either by aiming at the upper body / head or by aiming at center mass myself. The difference is that I know the ranges and spread of the Kross like the back of my hand which makes me lethal with it. [/QUOTE]

You just said it yourself. The difference is your knowledge. That is tactics, not skill. You are not separating the two. Yes, each gun is made to be effective at certain ranges and therefore it is best to employ them at those ranges. My contention is that those fights, where the weapons are used correctly, are skillless. If you are killing carb sprayers at close to mid range by using Kross burst fire, you are simply playing against inferior competition (people who aren’t aiming nearly as good as you are). The fights I am talking about are where two equally and highly skilled players showdown with the same weapon at that weapon’s effective range. The player who in that moment does a better job of aiming, should win…but on Brink PC that “job of aiming” is simplified to “spray at center of mass” due to the nerfed shooting, and therefore encounters that should feel exciting and dangerous feel boring and safe. Even if you die, there’s not much you could have done about it.

(thesuzukimethod) #39

not directed specifically at you, but these sorts of posts take the context completely out of the equation. It’s as though all aspects of brink can be distilled down to 2 equally skilled players faced up against each other in a sterile environment, waiting at their respective opposing starting lines, waiting for the starting gun to race towards each other and see who wins. on your marks, get set, go!

(burawura) #40

In order to objectively gauge the level of skill needed to use a certain gun, yes, a hypothetical situation can be very useful. That’s because we’re talking about skill here, not all the other stuff that gets mixed in when you play the game. It’s a focused discussion. I’ve just been trying to explain that good tactics, teamwork, knowledge, etc. has little do with actual skill, and aiming has alot to do with it. Skill is in how well the tactics are executed, and Brink doesn’t let you execute very precisely.