A way to win game before tank gets to Axis base...


(BoltyBoy) #1

A problem…

By stacking three allies on top of each other by part of the Axis base wall we were able to get one player (engineer) over the wall. Ie plant dyno and win game for Allies while the tank could still be sitting by the bridge! Since this part of the map is removed from the action it’s pretty safe to do this without fear of an Axis shooting you. I guess saying this here could encourage others to copy this but better to mention it now so it could be fixed rather than find everyone does it in a few month’s time on the full release.

I know this was possible in Beach but less likely to work since you are in the midst of the action. I guess if this were left as is Axis would learn to leave a player by the wall to protect it, but this will be a rather boring game for this guy if no one attempts it!

I think part of the prob is that the icey sewer route will let an Allie bypass the Axis spawn area and hence get to the wall unopposed. Maybe they wanted it thyis way but kinda sux.


(daalig) #2

:banghead:

haha, wtf, that’s the hard way.

1 Get tank to bridge and blow up gate
2 Steal Uniform as Covert
3 Get a Engy to come with you
4 Go for a walk to the last enemy base
5 Open door for Engy

Since it’s only early days, usually Axis doesn’t have enough smart players to realise this and get to last base a little early.


(BoltyBoy) #3

I thought you couldn’t open the axis base door from the outside? Even as a spec op


(daalig) #4

If you’re wearing a Uniform, you can open any doors as Covert. :cool:


(Captain) #5

Yep - There are two ways for two people to get in there.

1 x cov ops disguised
1 x eng

Cov ops opens door letting eng in eng blows depot

1 x eng
1 x any class

The wall jump doesnt need three people - only two - You just have to know how to boost properly ;D


(BoltyBoy) #6

hmm that seems like a mighty bad oversight. Damn could end up winning the game in minutes! Think I’ll try this tonight :slight_smile:

Would be a shame if players on the map end up split fighting between the compound and the tank. Almost rules the tank as nothing but a distraction for the spec ops to sneak in with an engy!


(Vengeance) #7

I dont think its an oversight just other ways of winning. The wall jump exists on many of the classic wolf maps - beach map as the most well known one.

Its up to the axis to defend against this.


(CoBraLorD) #8

The covertops technique simply rules, also an easy way to get on the roof @ the axis and avoid blowing up any defensive sides (a covops kan blow up those defenses really quickly btw). Fastest plant we have so far somewhere around 2 minutes 30 seconds, that’s with cov ops, haven’t tried a walljump yet.

Ofcourse usually the eng has to wait on the covops cuz that dude needs to kill someone AND steal a uniform :slight_smile: the covertops works surprisingly great actually, a real bastard he is ! I’ll have to learn paying special attention to my teammates cuz it isn’t that easy to distinguish them quickly.

Oh and actually, this makes that the axis have to defend two fronts sometimes, if you force them to put up some defenses at their base from the beginning of the game, you pull some axis forces way from the tank, maybe making it a little easier to break through WITH the tank.


(BoltyBoy) #9

It may be intentional but the best bit about this map is the whole defending and advancing the tank thing IMO. When players can get to the base via a route that avoids the enemy this kinda makes it too easy and with time I could see players focusing on this technique far more than the tank - kinda ruins the fun no? And if you think it doesn’t ruin the fun then they might as well ditch the tank altogether right?

My analogy: Buy a spanking kick arse MP3 player for your car and then say you prefer listening to your music on a tape recorder!


(Apple) #10

In regards to the wall hopping, I think this should be fixed.

In regards to the CovertOps/Engie, well, I don’t think it’s a design flaw in the map if the Axis team doesn’t choose to defend all paths to the fuel dump. Splash Damge knows very well what a Covert Ops/Engie combo can do. Just check the Player Guide that came with ET, under Map Strategies…

"Allied Strategies

The Allies should concentrate on getting inside the Depot and blowing the fuel dump. There are a number of ways to accomplish this. You can try and get a Covert OpS through the Axis entrance door with an Engineer in tow.

Axis Strategies

A good opening tactic is to have a couple of Engineers spawn at the back base and build all of the base defenses. You should use the Fire Team system to coordinate this. The Engineers should build outward from there, planting landmines. After the Tunnel Door is destroyed, these Engineers should stay at the base and prevent Allied Covert OpS from entering the base."

This isn’t Wolf, there are new classes with new abilities which you’ll have to defend against. I always play an engineer and the first thing I do at the start of the game as Axis is to run back to the Fuel Dump, construct the defenses and lay some mines around that door which the CovertOps and Engie might come through, it’s not that difficult and I single handedly can hold down the fort from the occasional CovertOps/Engie attempts to gain entry.


(BoltyBoy) #11

Yeah I read that this morning :slight_smile: Ah come on who reads instructions anyway! I take back what I say, this was obviously intentional.

At least I can do this now without feeling guilty that I’m ruining the game for everyone else!


(NoSoup4U) #12

Well, if i start the game on the axis side, the frst thing i do is run back to the base, and fortify both the walls besides the fuel-tanker.
This way i can go back to the playing field (which, tbh, is not that long a run that time, as the sewer-grate prolly has been blown, and you can straight on go to the bridge part… where you will hopefully be able to destruct evry part that they have been able to build in those 4 mins.

With the walls in place the team first gets warned that one of them walls have been blown down, and gives the team some time to send some engies back there.
I don’t think this thing is a design flaw at aLL : When it would succeed, imo, it can only been seen as a defense-flaw by the axis team.


(BoltyBoy) #13

Yeah but you forget. A spec ops - who will have let the eng in anyway - can blow the sides gates with his explosive satchel - leaving the engineer free to plant dyno straight at the fuel dump thing. So that means Axis have 30 seconds to get back and defuse it - also presuming at this point that the allies that got in are going to defend the dyno…what chance do you think the Axis have? Not a lot.

I think this route is fun for the Spec Ops and Eng that pull it off but it kind of spoils the game for eveyone else. Let’s face it, ultimatly the enjoyment is in playing not winning! If the game is over in a few minutes, QED the fun is also over.

Like I say before. Ultimatly I’d expect this to result in some Axis players going back to the Axis base early on in the game. They’ll need to stay there because of what I say above - it will only take 30 seconds to blow the fuel depot from planting the first dyno. So they could end up staying there all game on the off chance that an Ally eng + spec ops will come.


(Maniac) #14

I also think just building up some defense is good.
Tactics like this is good it gives a chance to develop more advance tactics.


(Dragon) #15

Easy way to defend against this is:

1 Soldier with MG42 to be inside the tunnel, facing the ladder which leads in from outside near the bridge. No-one can get up the ladder providing the MG42 has ammo. TWO MG42’s in slightly different spots can ensure that you mow down anyone trying the sneak route.

I love the MG42…

Cheers

O2.Dragon
www.clanoxygen.com


(Vengeance) #16

For the covert ops and eng trick to work requires a lot of teamwork and 2 good players to make it there intact while the covert ops has to try getting a uniform. Its a lot easier to say than do.

Even harder when ppl start playing as the axis with this in mind. I think after a few weeks u will rarely see this tactic pay off.


(blitz) #17

I dont think it is a flaw at all, it’s a viable tactic for the allied team.

The axis are capable of defending the tunnel, if they fail to do so… tough.

Start of campaing I always lock that tunnel down no problem with mg42 unless some n00b refuses to bring down some ammo.


(DoZer) #18

Jeez is it really that hard to have a portable mg42 sitting at a safe distance away but close enough to rape the sewer ladder?

Just sit him inside near the mine door and i gaurantee you no ones going to get up that ladder (provided your a safe distance away to prevent nades ofcourse).


(BoltyBoy) #19

Well I have seen this tactic a few times of wall jumping or an eng and co-ops team. I guess it’s a learning process and so I have found an effective defense is to place mines in the releavnt places to waste the would-be wall jumpers. Works a treat…you can even take satisfaction in observing the break-in attempt from a distance :slight_smile:


(fatBastard()) #20

It may very well be intentional that the CovertOps + enemy uniform + engineer combination works the way it does, but then I can’t help but feel that the class design or, at the very least, the level design is slightly off.

I’ve always considered the human pyramid to be an exploit. Unless the developers actually make this “feature” a part of the game on equal terms with everything else, I cannot accept the idea of one fully equipped soldier jumping on the head of another human being without breaking his neck :disgust:. Now, if Splash damage were to incorporate a more acceptable solution to the problem, like having the jumped upon soldier die from the attempt or making a REAL human ladder, which takes more soldiers to perform and leaves them pretty vulnerable during the stacking, then I would be all for it … as it is now, I simply cannot understand how anybody can defend such an obvious engine/physics fault as being “a part of the game”

Back to the CovertOps problem. The real problem here is a combination of several things.

1) When the disguised CovertOps + engineer thingy takes place, the tank hasn’t blown a hole in the tunnel doors (most often, it hasn’t even crossed the bridge yet) and thus the spawn points haven’t shifted yet. That means that unless the Axis split their forces, thus making it even harder to keep the tank from just parading through the entire first half of the level, the CovertOps and the engineer will have all the time in the world to perform their task and no matter where the engineer places the dynamite charge, it will be impossible for an Axis engineer to get back to the fuel depot and defuse the dynamite.

2) It has been suggested that an Axis engineer starts out by building the fuel dump defenses, but they don’t really matter at all since the CovertOps can simply lead the engineer across the roof thus completely bypassing the eastern and western defenses. If that is too diabolical, then the CovertOps can simply blow the gates with his satchel charge and even though the Axis will be alerted to this breach, the engineer can have placed the dynamite within 10 seconds after the gates came down, so no Axis engineer will make back in time anyway.

3) It has also been suggested that an engineer places a few strategic landmines on both sides of the team door the CoverOps uses to get the engineer inside the Axis base, but given the fact the only class in the game, without a Battle Sense on level 4, that can detect mines is the CovertOps AND given the lack of time pressure (see argument 1), the CovertOps can calmly pull out his binoculars and “flag” any landmines that might be present.

Somebody suggested guarding the ladder leading up from the sewer entrance and that does indeed seem the most viable solution to stop the “backstabbers” :bash: … but that again leaves the Axis to defend 3 seperate crossings (the footbridge, the “big” bridge and the sewer entrance), spreading their forces really thin and though this technique may indeed work as intended, it also makes sure that the Allies will most likely find the first half of the map a “walk in the park”. Besides, guarding the sewer ladder gives the word “Camping” a whole new meaning :bored:

As I see it, Splash Damage can either change the map slightly (like introducing another set of doors in the tunnels that have to be blown before anybody can access the fuel dump area or something like that) or they can make some modifications to the CovertOps class, like making him loose the ability of opening team doors or disabling his ability to detect mines while wearing a disguise or perhaps by disallowing him to “open” doors for others (he can pass the door but the trailing engineer can’t).

There you have it, my oppinion on the matter :clap: