A way to win game before tank gets to Axis base...


(Cosmos) #21

By stacking three allies on top of each other by part of the Axis base wall we were able to get one player (engineer) over the wall. Ie plant dyno and win game for Allies while the tank could still be sitting by the bridge! Since this part of the map is removed from the action it’s pretty safe to do this without fear of an Axis shooting you. I guess saying this here could encourage others to copy this but better to mention it now so it could be fixed rather than find everyone does it in a few month’s time on the full release.

This can be done with just two people. :bump:


(Vengeance) #22

its called tactics and a good team with good communications can stop such tactics.

As in the majority of wolfy maps if you leave an area undefended your gonna pay for it sooner or later. Since defending the first bridge is reletivly easy by just a/s it you can afford to have teammates defending other areas. Really all you need at the beginning is to have your half your team defend the sewers and half your team defend the first bridge.

The wall jump should stay because it requires a lot of communicaton and teamwork - the reason i like this game so much.

Giving your buddy a lift over the wall has always been used in wolfy and in real iife warfare


(Cosmos) #23

The wall jump should stay because it requires a lot of communicaton and teamwork - the reason i like this game so much.

Yes I agree totally. Jumping over walls should happen more. :smiley:


(BoltyBoy) #24

Maybe SD should introduce other features for you people … a key to open the door…a trampoline to bounce players over the wall…jet packs to fly over the wall…heck no even better why not just make a teleport portal at the allied spawn that takes players directly to he objective.


(fatBastard()) #25

So, if it turns out a neat little trick involving a medic, an engineer and a FieldOps where the engineer blows the medic and the FieldOps sky high, the medic revives the FieldOps in mid-air and the FieldOps then plants an artillery strike from a 100 feet in the air, thus being able to see areas normally out of view, it should be allowed and encouraged because it requires a lot of communicaton and teamwork? I’m sorry, but I’m just not buying it.

Yes, it has been used a lot in Wolfy and a lot of other games based on a Quake engine and the way it has been implemented has always sucked too. If we look at the real world example, then how does this “Giving your buddy a lift over the wall” actually work? Does it involve one guy jumping on the head of another guy? No. Does it involve one guy sitting on top of another guy while both are deftly shooting enemies left and right with their 2-handed weapons? No.

I’m not saying that it shouldn’t be possible to give another player a boost over a wall. I’m just saying that it should be done properly and not by exploiting a fault in the physics engine. For example:

A) Make the bottom guy unable to perform any other action while boosting the top guy since both his hands are obviously busy holding/lifting the top guy.

B) If the top guy chooses to fire his weapon while standing on the bottom guy, make the ladder collapse.

C) If the guy on top perfoms any kind of “jumping” action and comes down again on the bottom guy (i.e. the attempt fails), make the bottom guy take some serious damage since it is bound to hurt a LOT when a fully grown man wearing full army gear is jumping on you :eek2:

D) Make both participants extra vulnerable to enemy fire since they are deeply involved in performing their little acrobatics stunt and if either are indeed hit, make the ladder collapse.

There are probably many other ways one could implement a human ladder, but the above ideas are just out of the top of my head (they should not necessarily ALL be implemented. They are just ideas of different ways of doing it).

What puzzles me the most is the way most people seem to agree that it is important to be able to hear/see what kind of weapon an opponent standing 50 yards in front of you is using, not only in order to best counter his attacks but also in terms of “realism” but when you see one guy sitting in a crouched position on top of another guy’s head, nobody takes any notice.

Why is it important to make the lobbing curve of a grenade throw as realistic as possible while other issues in the physical engine are being completely ignored? It seems so illogical to me, even within the boundaries of the game world and when something becomes illogical it is very hard NOT to view it as something that wasn’t meant to be done/used/performed that way (i.e. an exploit of a loophole in the engine).


(BoltyBoy) #26

amen.

but do you not remember that incredible feat performed by Allied soldiers on d-day when they managed to scale a 100 ft cliff by standing 20 soldiers on each other’s heads - no less remarable by the fact that the bottom soldier was carrying a combined weight of two tonnes! I wonder if SD have implemented this cool feature in one of the other ET maps?


(Hewster) #27

Well now, I had a few interesting games today, on the SD server,
with a few of the SD crew (& their girlfriends ).

First off I was on allies (along with the SD crew), the axis were
spawn killing (not fun :() but a few allies got through, did the wall jump,
and the match was over.

The axis didn’t learn, and on the next round they continued to SK,
this time allies got past with a covertopps & engineer & we won in under
2 minutes !

Axis were told to defend more & stop spawn killing… I joined axis
to try and learn a good defense… within a couple of hours axis were able
to hold off all allied assaults by coordinating them-selves & defending
properly.

I do believe that once peeps have got to grips with how to play this map,
it will show itself as a very well balanced map.

I do however think that it would be nice if “player towers” could be
limited in some way, especially if the mapper had not intended players
to be able to scale certain walls in this way (BoltyBoy knows exactly
what I mean :wink: but perhaps that’s the mappers job, not the coders ?

Happy fraggin

Hewster


(kUUh) #28

so i take it fatbastard dont like the ninja moves coded to the rtcw engine. sometimes limitations on what you can do are good, but only when they dont feel forced, like the kickback with pistols. its not a big deal but it feels awkward. if you even without any experience with guns try to shoot at a target and slowly shoot lets say 10 bullets, i dont think the bullets end up in a nice evenly spaced vertical row with the last bullet some two meters above the target, but sure something like that probably happens if you pull the trigger as fast as you can. i think that would be nice btw, keep the kickback but make it return back at a speed you see fit, faster with xp? cos how it is now feels kinda awkward.
about the pyramids, yeah theyre not realistic but id say the two people building it are at very big disadvantage when it comes to fighting as it is, and it probably was coded intentionally, otherwise jumping on someones head would cause a nullpointer exception or summat. i like it and cant see any reason other than its not realistic, to change it. if you get shot to the head, bandages wont fix it in real life.
and the little scenario with the midair revive, which are possible at least in vanilla wolf btw, would take so much skill id say they deserve the win. much of why i love rtcw so much has to do with how it, although basically has strict limits for what you can do, also allows to stretch those rules through skill, like dropping down 50 meters, catching a ladder and being on your merry way, or being able to jump down from similar heights without exploding if where you land is angled right compared to your movement at the point of impact.
also i cant point my finger at it but something feels different with the movement physics in et, with strafejumping and all that. it feels like it was made easier, but less reliable somehow. im very likely wrong but it seems like SD tried to include leg movement to the physics and i dont like em as much atm, need to play more to make up my mind though.


(BoltyBoy) #29

Realistically a mapper can’t avoid wall jumpers - You’d need a wall so tall that it would ultimatly not fit in with the aesthetics of the map and restrict it in other ways.

Who ever said soldiers used this technique in real war - what the hell are you smoking? Maybe with ladders or ropes…hey now there’s a point. If people want to insist Wall jumping is perfectly feasible then why not introduce one of those rope + hook things (forget the name). So allowing a player to scale a wall and making the whole concept more acceptable from a realism POV.

Wall jumping - It’s unrealistic and adds an unnecessary farce value to the game - end of story!


(Captain) #30

erm guys…

You are taking it WAY too serious.

It’s not real.

Honest.

Chill.

'CaP


(BoltyBoy) #31

LOL Captain, what we’re doing is debating.

It’s far more fun to express your opinion in a colourful way than to simply say stuff like “I think wall jumping is bad”…come on join in - you’ll enjoy it! Come to the Dark Side!


(Hewster) #32

I think wall jumping is bad… lol
And I’m not gona lower myself to say that this is turning into a
mass debate, as that is just too predictable & childish … hehe

Apparently, and I have it on good authority, that this particular wall jump
has been fixed by the mapper.

I don’t know what he (sock) has done to fix it though, I guess we’ll
have to wait for the next release to find out (unless he feels compelled
to let us know)

I guess it would be good though if it could be coded so that for every
player > 2 that is standing on a players head, would say, decrease their
health by say, 10 points per second ?
so if I were to have 3 players on my head, I would lose 20 health per
second ? I personally can’t think of how to go about coding this…
yes I can… but would it be worth the effort ?

This would of course take the fun out of doing massive player towers
when players get bored, but hey, oh well.

It would also be cool if jumping on someones head gave damage ?

Hewster


(kUUh) #33

yes in realworld jumping on someones head probably does some damage and goomba kills could be nice in et too imo, but those happen when the height is enough to gib you anyway. i dont see how it would make the game better, when lets say on village initial spawn as axis i jump for those boxes in the alley to cemetary and accidentally use someones head instead and end up halfway across the cemetery i find it very funny, i dont see how it would make the game better if the one i jump on lost some health for it.
and yes in theory you can build big towers ingame to climb any wall, but only one person gets over it and building it isnt exactly easy (its forbidden in clanwars afaik) and those doing it are easy targets for anyone that sees it. in fueldump climbing the walls is a tad unfair if there is no-one defending it (not any more than the covertops thingy though), but the tactic “i think the best way to defend our fuel dump is if we completely abandon it and maybe they dont know its important” isnt exactly the best one.


(BoltyBoy) #34

kUUh - the problem is this … so we decidee to send some Axis back to defend the axis base just in case some Allies get through. What if no Allies get through? Then those defending the base will be sat there twiddling their thumbs waiting for something to happen. Is this fun I ask you?

Ultimatly a game is meant to be fun - yes? If I am playing I don’t want to be forced to defend a part of the map where I may not even see any action - especially as I want to be on the front line racking up my Exp points - that’s hardly gonna happen sitting idle by the Axis base is it?

In one round I tried the defending tactic. Yes people did try to get through but they were repelled. I ended the round with about half the Exp points as anone else and spent the first 10 minutes having been involved in about three fire fights - personally I found this boring as hell.


(Vengeance) #35

whenever i play as axis i always hang back regardless if ppl make it through. Recently though more and more are ppl making it through happens all the time these days so defense is a good idea. The fact is if you leave the base defensless thats upto your team but remember you could pay the price.

The strategy of covert ops and engineer was no oversight and the map was designed with this in mind. Check the docs folder and read the player guide which you get with the game from splash damage - they tell you about this strategy as well as a counter for it.

If covert and eng strategy works and the axis team call it a lame win what there really saying is there side had lame teamwork.


(fatBastard()) #36

What I’ve been trying to say, and I can only speak for myself of course, is that it usually is VERY clear whether some trick, feat, quirk or whatever is in fact an INTENTIONAL part of the game/engine or rather a more or less unfortunate by-product of something completely different.

Here’s an example (based on a simplified interpretation of the Quake3 engine):

Problem A: Players can pass through each other like the other person is a ghost.

Solution: Player models become solid but moving obstacles so it is no longer possible to pass through each other … unless somebody gets slain. It wouldn’t be very fun if living players were constantly tripping over the bodys of their fallen comrades/foes, so when someone dies, their body turns back to the intangible but visible ghost-like being.

Intended Effect: You can no longer pass through each other making the unrealistic ghost-like feeling disapear :banana:

Unintended Effect: Since the only difference between a stone wall and wooden wall in programming terms is the texturing, one player can position himself in a doorway and until that person moves or is slain the door way might as well be solid wall (a very unsportsmanlike behavior in document maps like mp_beach)

Problem B: Maps are 3 dimensional where not only can players run forward, backwards, left and right but also up and down. This means every movement/animation of each character needs to have another dimension added to all the basic movement (the angle of the foot when moving on tilted surfaces, the lifting of the knees in different ways when moving on stairs, etc etc etc), thus making the game 100 times more resource demanding and ultimately making it unable to run on any machine available for sale today.

Solution: Model animations stay the same but the entire model is simply being elevated or lowered in tiny intervals, thus making it seem like the third dimension has indeed been implemented.

Intended Effect: The game is still playable on mainstream computers (well, you know what I mean :D) and the third dimension does seem to work correctly.

Unintended Effect: Since the third dimension isn’t actually implemented properly at all, the famous “Clipping” problems are abundant throughout FPS games. A typical situation is where a character is standing sideways on a tilted surface and to others it appears that one of his feet is buried in the ground while the other is floating in midair (or one is correct and the other is airborne). The same applies to the character standing extremely close to the edge of a vertical drop … in very bad cases it appears that he is standing in a relaxed position but only outmost parts of one of his feet is actually touching the ground, the rest of him is floating in this air.

Now let’s combine the 2:

Unintended combination Effect: With the solid and unpassable player models, it doesn’t really matter whether you try to “go through somebody” from the left/right, front/back OR top/bottom, thus it doesn’t matter whether you try to run/walk through a person or try to pass through another person on a ladder for instance. The player model is a solid object as long as the player is alive, from all directions. The simulated third dimensional movement axis and the following “Clipping” problems means that the surface upon which one character is trying to stand can be extremely small compared to the size of the character model. And so was born the jumping/standing/crouching person on top of another person.

I know the examples were rather crude and simplified but it actually is the whole Human Ladder thing in a nutshell. It was never INTENTIONALLY created by the developers as a feature in the engine. It was an unfortunate by-product of something else and I must have missed the class when Playing within the limits of the game became Let’s exploit every loophole, quirk, mistake or even bug that we can possibly find and then say: “If it’s in the game, it must have been put there by a reason” or “If I don’t use it somebody else will” or (my personal favorite)“You can just do it too”

That’s it for me for now.

Cheers :drink:


(kUUh) #37

whoa, you sure know your stuff :slight_smile:
my point is simply, the ability to stand on someones head can make some funny things happen, and removing it wouldn’t make more funny things happen and wouldn’t really improve the gameplay because the towers are very awkward to make and only the one on top gets over the whatever. a good example of their intentions is the roof above allied fieldops in depot, there is no way to go there without grenade/revive or a tower, and once you’re there its easy pickings until some enemy sees you from the ruins or somewhere else and youre dead. in retrospect ive spent a good deal of time on servers just looking for hard to get places in the map, trying to get there and see if the place is usefull, and its been fun, but without the grenade/revive or tower ‘exploits’ those fun times would have never happened.
about the fueldump walljump/covops thingy. imo the defence when the fort is still empty should go something like this,
stop the tank from blowing the sewer open while preventing allies from crossing the river or pushing them back toward spawn. when its blown defend the sewers and try to stop the tank from blowing the door. when they get through the door, the fort aint empty anymore. if youre the only one with a clue in a newbie server, defend the sewers after its open, and when the door is blown hang around the fort, u’ll probably see action all the time.