A balanced view: the roles required and why K/D is important in Brink.


(fearlessfox) #41

[QUOTE=Shadowcat;332471]http://thebrink.tv/

Watch all the comp games you want, you will find that the winning team will always rush as a team, die as a team, and respawn as a team.[/QUOTE]

And I can guarantee you that if someone put a team together with similar tactics to those I’ve mentioned they’d swarm all over any of these comp teams if that’s all they’re doing.

If Brink gains popularity, teams will move in who put more thought into their games and will begin to stomp up the ladders.

Believe what you like, experience, history, and basic team play principles tell us otherwise.


(Shadowcat) #42

[QUOTE=fearlessfox;332480]And I can guarantee you that if someone put a team together with similar tactics to those I’ve mentioned they’d swarm all over any of these comp teams if that’s all they’re doing.

If Brink gains popularity, teams will move in who put more thought into their games and will begin to stomp up the ladders.

Believe what you like, experience, history, and basic team play principles tell us otherwise.[/QUOTE]

Heck, even the announcers, who did the same thing for ETQW for years often ridicule teams if they don’t respawn together, i should think they have a pretty good idea of what works at the top. Hubris, one of the teams in that tourny, was one of the top clans in ETQW, and they use the tactics I’ve described. Are you going to say that they are wrong too? That they are inexperienced players that can be stomped on?


(zenstar) #43

[QUOTE=Shotgun Surgeon;332475]In a game based on shooting, killing, and cooperation to help your team win or lose, the most important stat would have to be W/L. However, I do agree that KDR is a very very important stat.

I’m not saying that there should be K/D stat tracking in the game, BUT …

An operative and his team who can clear out a room in order to hack an objective without dying a bunch of times is much more effective than an operative and his team who keep dying over and over and over.

A team escorting a hostage will be much more successful if they die less instead of having to keep respawning because they die more times than they can kill.

A team defending an objective will FAIL if they keep dying, allowing the breaching team to dominate the area and complete the objective without challenge because the defending team is dying more than they are killing.

You get it?

I’m sick of people thinking that because this is a heavy team-based game, things like KDR don’t matter. They do. The statistic itself does not matter. What matters is the skill and ability to hold a high KDR because doing so frustrates the other team and makes completing objectives a lot tougher for them.

If KDR doesn’t matter… how is a team going to win if they can’t survive long enough to complete the objective?[/QUOTE]

Because you don’t need a high KDR to complete objectives / win.
Of course KDR matters - to a point! A lot of people are overemphasizing the importance of the KDR (some I think because they want the stat).

What you say is generally true, but just as you’re sick of people saying things like “KDR don’t(sic) matter” there are a bunch of people sick of others inflating the importance of KDR.

And everyone seems to forget that some characters won’t have a high KDR. KDR is not an ‘across the board’ important thing. Some team member may have a low KDR because they’re completing objectives / keeping the team healthy / capping and upgrading command posts / etc…

There is “some” importance to KDR. It is not “very very important”.


(fearlessfox) #44

Don’t confuse respawning together once your team has been expertly taken to pieces bit by bit and collecting your wits before you move back in with killing yourself just because a couple of your team mates died and you’ve only a few pips left.

Your muddling the points I made to make your own seem more weighty. Please stop that.

[QUOTE=zenstar;332485]Because you don’t need a high KDR to complete objectives / win.
Of course KDR matters - to a point! A lot of people are overemphasizing the importance of the KDR (some I think because they want the stat).[/QUOTE]

And I will say this again: it’s not important in most public games, but the minute you come across a team that’s organised and is being careful to kill more than they die (ie: wary of their K/D, not because they like K/D but because they /know/ the more they kill and the less they die = more chance of success) and you’re ignoring the value yourself you /will/ be stomped.

The /entire/ point is that K/D is important to manage AS A TEAM, not as an individual badge of glory.


(Shotgun Surgeon) #45

[QUOTE=zenstar;332485]Because you don’t need a high KDR to complete objectives / win.
Of course KDR matters - to a point! A lot of people are overemphasizing the importance of the KDR (some I think because they want the stat).

What you say is generally true, but just as you’re sick of people saying things like “KDR don’t(sic) matter” there are a bunch of people sick of others inflating the importance of KDR.

And everyone seems to forget that some characters won’t have a high KDR. KDR is not an ‘across the board’ important thing. Some team member may have a low KDR because they’re completing objectives / keeping the team healthy / capping and upgrading command posts / etc…

There is “some” importance to KDR. It is not “very very important”.[/QUOTE]

How exactly is a team member with a low KDR completing objectives? An objective-focused team with the ability to rack up more kills than deaths will outperform an objective-focused team who die more times than they can kill.

I’m saying that people think it’s not important to have a high KDR. I think I should point out that I’m not talking about the statistic. I’m not talking about individuals who ignore objectives and just farm kills. I’m talking about individuals and teams who have the skill to kill more and die less.

With that said, a team who doesn’t have that skill will NOT be able to complete objectives effectively, will NOT be able to keep the team healthy effectively, and will NOT be able to cap or upgrade command posts effectively without dying multiple times. And in a game where getting to each objective revolves around pushing through a chokepoint, it’s safe to say that teams that just keep dying will not win.


(zenstar) #46

[QUOTE=Shotgun Surgeon;332497]How exactly is a team member with a low KDR completing objectives? An objective-focused team with the ability to rack up more kills than deaths will outperform an objective-focused team who die more times than they can kill.

I’m saying that people think it’s not important to have a high KDR. I think I should point out that I’m not talking about the statistic. I’m not talking about individuals who ignore objectives and just farm kills. I’m talking about individuals and teams who have the skill to kill more and die less.

With that said, a team who doesn’t have that skill will NOT be able to complete objectives effectively, will NOT be able to keep the team healthy effectively, and will NOT be able to cap or upgrade command posts effectively without dying multiple times. And in a game where getting to each objective revolves around pushing through a chokepoint, it’s safe to say that teams that just keep dying will not win.[/QUOTE]

A team member who spends most of the round hacking while his team protect him will have a low KDR because he’s not killing anything.
A team member who’s is focused on keeping the heavy soldier and other fighters healed up while also keeping his head down will probably have a low KDR because he’s being interupted so often helping team members maintaing their KDR.
I’m know what you are saying and I’m not saying you are wrong, I’m saying you are overinflating the importance. It is somewhat important but it’s not “very very important” as you claimed.
I’m also pointing out that while the team overall may have a decent KDR, individuals in that team may not because they’re doing other things that help the team.

I have often managed to grab the health command post and upgrade it while the fighting was happening elsewhere. All that time was hurting my KDR because I wasn’t killing but those 2 extra health pips were seriously helping my team.

KDR has it’s place. That place is not on top of a pedastal. That’s what I’m trying to get across.


(fearlessfox) #47

[QUOTE=zenstar;332511]A team member who spends most of the round hacking while his team protect him will have a low KDR because he’s not killing anything.
[/QUOTE]

Yet a team member who spends most of his time hacking but has a well balanced and orgnaised team to back him up will have a POSITIVE K/D ratio.

And this is the point: POSITIVE K/D is important, not GODLY K/D.

Of course those hacking OBJs will have less kills, this was never about the amount of kills a player has. It’s the ratio between kills and deaths.

I thought that was clear?


(zenstar) #48

[QUOTE=fearlessfox;332489]Don’t confuse respawning together once your team has been expertly taken to pieces bit by bit and collecting your wits before you move back in with killing yourself just because a couple of your team mates died and you’ve only a few pips left.

Your muddling the points I made to make your own seem more weighty. Please stop that.

And I will say this again: it’s not important in most public games, but the minute you come across a team that’s organised and is being careful to kill more than they die (ie: wary of their K/D, not because they like K/D but because they /know/ the more they kill and the less they die = more chance of success) and you’re ignoring the value yourself you /will/ be stomped.

The /entire/ point is that K/D is important to manage AS A TEAM, not as an individual badge of glory.[/QUOTE]

Firstly: don’t quote mine my response to someone else,
Second: don’t then insinuate that you know better because you’re obviously some sort of “pro” above the public game. That’s called “argument from authority” and is a classic logical falasy.
Finally: if you actually read and comprehended what I was saying you would notice that I was saying something along the lines of:
“KDR has some importance but don’t overemphasize it.”

I think Shadowcat seems more cogent than you. At least they give examples of actual tactics and reference other similar games and comp play within those game (in the most recent posts), meanwhile you just claim “history and experience”.

I’m not saying you’re wrong but you need to take a breather and organise your side of the argument better. It’s begining to fall apart.

I, personally, think you’re overemphasizing KDR. It’s a valid part of the game but it’s not as all-encompassing as you seem to be making it out to be.


(zenstar) #49

[QUOTE=fearlessfox;332512]Yet a team member who spends most of his time hacking but has a well balanced and orgnaised team to back him up will have a POSITIVE K/D ratio.

And this is the point: POSITIVE K/D is important, not GODLY K/D.

Of course those hacking OBJs will have less kills, this was never about the amount of kills a player has. It’s the ratio between kills and deaths.

I thought that was clear?[/QUOTE]

I thought it was clear that if an operative gets focus-fired because he’s hacking it’s likely he will have a few deaths on his name. If he spends the rest of the match hacking then he’s going to have very few kills right? that means his RATIO will be bad.
And you can NEVER get negative K/D ratio. It is a fraction. The worst you can have is 0 kills / some deaths which is 0. 1 kill / 1 million deaths is still positive.

What you’re trying to say is that “as a team” a better KDR will generally mean a better game / team.
While that is true what people are trying to point out is that the way you puff up KDR is overemphasizing it.
It is important. But it’s only important as a tool to winning. Good teamwork is far more important. A well oiled team that has average KDR will most likely beat a bad team with high KDR.
KDR has it’s place. Don’t overdo it!

EDIT: if suicides count as negatives then I guess you can go negative if you reallly really try hard. But that’s more “frags” than kills. I don’t believe places that show KDR subtract kills for suicide nowadays.


(FrankieGodskin) #50

He won’t die if he has skilled teammates protecting him. Those teammates will have a positive K/DR, as will the operative who is surviving the hack.

If you have a K/DR less than “1,” you went negative. 3 kills and 5 deaths means you went “negative 2.” Hence “going negative.”


(fearlessfox) #51

Why? I thought this was a public form of debate. My bad.

[QUOTE=zenstar;332514]
Second: don’t then insinuate that you know better because you’re obviously some sort of “pro” above the public game. That’s called “argument from authority” and is a classic logical falasy. [/quote]

Where did I do this exactly?

[QUOTE=zenstar;332514]
Finally: if you actually read and comprehended what I was saying you would notice that I was saying something along the lines of:
“KDR has some importance but don’t overemphasize it.”[/quote]

And I was responding with: K/D is /supremely/ important to a well balanced team. A team that keeps K/D positive AND moves forward with the OBJs efficiently will dominate those who rush in without a care.

This will be on display in all the ET:QW high end comp matches, I assure you.


(zenstar) #52

[QUOTE=Frankie Godskin;332526]He won’t die if he has skilled teammates protecting him. Those teammates will have a positive K/DR, as will the operative who is surviving the hack.

If you have a K/DR less than “1,” you went negative. 3 kills and 5 deaths means you went “negative 2.” Hence “going negative.”[/QUOTE]

=/ math fail in that definition but fair enough. If that’s the definition.
I can still see people going (shudder) negative and still doing well in their role in a good team.

Take MNC as an example: I have played some games where we dominated the entire game and won. I still had (this alleged) negative KDR because my job wasn’t killing enemy players. I can totally see, even in good teams, some people just not getting that many kills but being shot a bunch.

In fact it’s a zero sum game. 2 equal teams will end up on 1:1 ratio (on average). 1 slipup and you’ve got a team with a negative KDR. These could be the top 2 teams playing for best team of the universe. You wouldn’t say they were bad teams. One of them is going to end up with negative KDR.
Individuals within those teams are going to end up with negative KDR while others will be positive simply through who gets the last bullet in.

Like I say: has it’s place.


(fearlessfox) #53

Of course, but if the rest of the time has been spent working in tandem with the team helping take down an area to secure it for OBJ taking then he will be positive.

Semantics, really? :confused:

The above post is a lot of fun to read. You’re telling me I’m wrong yet agreeing with me the entire time. Aside from this part:

If the team is well oiled it will likely have an above average K/D.

I know this seems like I’m arguing semantics now, but I honestly can’t see a time where a well oiled team could go up against a team that’s not and have a lesser ratio. :confused:


(zenstar) #54

It is. What I mean is you’re taking only a piece of what I said so that you can try to knock down my argument without addressing the entire thing which actually changes what I was saying (which wasn’t actually directed at you but if you want to jump in then fine).

2 times I can see in the last page:
“And I will say this again: it’s not important in most public games,”
“I would like to say one thing: this might not matter that much in Public games as the majority of players are not skilled enough to worry about,”

Maybe you don’t mean it that way but you’re coming off like an elitist douche when you say things like that.

[QUOTE=fearlessfox;332531]
And I was responding with: K/D is /supremely/ important to a well balanced team. A team that keeps K/D positive AND moves forward with the OBJs efficiently will dominate those who rush in without a care.

This will be on display in all the ET:QW high end comp matches, I assure you.[/QUOTE]
Again: zero sum game. saying things like “supremely” really overemphasizes the fact that 1 team will always have a >1 KDR and one team will always have a 1< KDR.
And the team with >1 KDR may not be the winner, especially when they are closely matched teams.
A team with KDR of 1.1 could quite easily lose to a team with 0.9 KDR.


(zenstar) #55

[QUOTE=fearlessfox;332535]Of course, but if the rest of the time has been spent working in tandem with the team helping take down an area to secure it for OBJ taking then he will be positive.

Semantics, really? :confused:

The above post is a lot of fun to read. You’re telling me I’m wrong yet agreeing with me the entire time. Aside from this part:

If the team is well oiled it will likely have an above average K/D.

I know this seems like I’m arguing semantics now, but I honestly can’t see a time where a well oiled team could go up against a team that’s not and have a lesser ratio. :/[/QUOTE]
I already stated that I’m not saying you are wrong: I’m saying you are overstating it!
Lets put it this way: you say “KDR is important”, i say “yes” then you say “It’s over 9000” and I say “no. far less than that. still important but not that important.” and you say “OVER 9000!!!”

And no: if the team is well oiled but evenly matched then both teams should average out to a KDR of 1 because it is a zero sum game.

Also: a well oiled team could be people communicating well but being bad shots. A less organised team could be snipers but unable to successfully come to gether to make a push. Sure they’ll get a lot of kills but they can’t come together to get past that choke point and so lose. For example. That would result in a low KDR for a winning, well-oiled team.

Just because you can’t think of it doesn’t mean it can’t happen. Be careful: that’s another logical fallacy.


(fearlessfox) #56

Ugh, says there person using “intellectual” jargon to hammer a point home.

I’m not going to debate this anymore, I’ve said my piece and I believe that the only way I’m going to be able to debate with you is to repeat what I’ve already written in the OP.

If you want to get hyper-pedantic about what I’ve written, then fine.

[QUOTE=zenstar;332538]
I already stated that I’m not saying you are wrong: I’m saying you are overstating it!
Lets put it this way: you say “KDR is important”, i say “yes” then you say “It’s over 9000” and I say “no. far less than that. still important but not that important.” and you say “OVER 9000!!!”[/quote]

This is all you needed to write to show you’ve missed the point I was trying to make and are now simply arguing for the sake of arguing. :confused:


(zenstar) #57

[QUOTE=fearlessfox;332549]Ugh, says there person using “intellectual” jargon to hammer a point home.
[/QUOTE]
Sorry, but it’s a pet peeve of mine when people use logical fallacies and then expect people to accept their argument. It doesn’t mean your argument is right or wrong. It just means it’s badly conveyed and I was trying to point out the weaknesses for you to actually shore up your argument. Unless you mean “zero sum” in which case sorry, but that’s the term.

That’s cool. Lets agree that we’re not reaching each other. I’m not trying to be pedantic but I really see gaps in your logic and I actually partially agree with you. It’s just that I think you’re pushing it too hard and miss some points.

[QUOTE=fearlessfox;332549]
This is all you needed to write to show you’ve missed the point I was trying to make and are now simply arguing for the sake of arguing. :/[/QUOTE]
I get the feeling you’ve missed my point too.
Fair enough sir. A good debate it was. Let’s call this a truce shall we?
handshake
No ill will meant at all :slight_smile:


(Shadowcat) #58

[QUOTE=fearlessfox;332489]Don’t confuse respawning together once your team has been expertly taken to pieces bit by bit and collecting your wits before you move back in with killing yourself just because a couple of your team mates died and you’ve only a few pips left.

Your muddling the points I made to make your own seem more weighty. Please stop that.
[/QUOTE]

Youre basically arguing that all other things equal, killing is good and dying is bad. This is obvious.

Because that’s true you are arguing that the ratio is important, but shouldn’t be shown to players. It then becomes a completely academic thing.

You then say that the ratio itself is a supremely important thing, this is where i start to disagree. All I have done is cited examples where its not supreme. You exaggerated my examples, turning “last one standing” to “a couple teammates died”.

Your main argument was based in your strategy which called for designated attackers and supporters. This is also where i disagree. In the BrinkTV Release Cup, none of the winning teams had designated attackers, they all rushed at once, attacked together, and often died trying to complete the objective. The teams that played less aggressively like you suggest, with only certain members delegated to buffing the team and doing objectives, did not do as well. Your theory crafting does not match up with what won in actuality.

By pointing out opposition to your strategy, I debunk the main part of your argument, I fail to see how this is muddling.

Yes, all other things equal, with players playing identical methods; the one with the higher K/D is generally the better player. Comparing different players, teams, strategies, or classes with K/D quickly becomes pointless, however. In an objective based game, the important stat, if there is one, is W/L.


(fearlessfox) #59

[QUOTE=Shadowcat;332560] In the BrinkTV Release Cup, none of the winning teams had designated attackers, they all rushed at once, attacked together, and often died trying to complete the objective. The teams that played less aggressively like you suggest, with only certain members delegated to buffing the team and doing objectives, did not do as well.
[/QUOTE]

If you’re going to make this direct a claim claim, then the burden of proof lies with you.

Show me clear cut examples where a team using similar tactics to those I suggest in a clearly efficient and well organised way lose out to a team that bum rushes the OBJ together over and over.

Otherwise I’m simply going to stand by my experience as a player who’s been a member of teams that have won competitive leagues such as clanbase and clanwars (not the most prestigious I know, but I do have some idea of what I’m talking about here).

Whenever I use the tactics mentioned in the OP, whenever I’m presented the opportunity of a team willing to give it a go, we stomp all over the opposition. I’m more than happy to test this out on anyone who disagrees in game if the opportunity presents itself.


(fearlessfox) #60

This is the same thing as being a grammar nazi for the sake of sounding smarter. We all know what I meant.

[QUOTE=zenstar;332559]
It’s just that I think you’re pushing it too hard and miss some points.[/quote]

Funny, this is what you’re doing IMO. :stuck_out_tongue:

[QUOTE=zenstar;332559]
No ill will meant at all :)[/QUOTE]

It’s never personal. <3