3 core changes to Phantom, how do you like them?

(watsyurdeal) #41

Did you folks forget that cloak drains every time you get hit? And did you forget that Red Eye and Vasilli both have tools to point out where Phantom is?

Personally, I’d trade the armor for the cloak drain on hit aspect to just go away, but I imagine it exists purely because of those mercs. That and explosives like Fragger’s Nades, Proxy Mines, etc, you’d be surprised how easily you’ll hit cloaked Phantom once you know their common routes.[/quote]

So you’ll pretty much have to fire down routes and risk wasting ammo if a Phantom isn’t there? Not to mention the fact that Redeye only detects in the direction he looks, most Phantoms do the whole surprisebuttsecks thing so I think you can count Redeye out unless you use him like a radar and look 360 every 5 secs.[/quote]

Or you know, pay attention to what’s behind you?

You act like killing someone with 110 hp and SMGs is a difficult task.

The difference between Phantom and other characters with the same HP and weapons, is that now, Phantom can actually get behind enemy lines and get picks nobody else could get as easily. Which is exactly what he should be able to do.[/quote]

Actually no, it’s not hard to kill a guy with 110HP and SMGs. Is it hard for you? We’ve got exercises to help you with that. If you read my previous comments you will see that I have mentioned nothing of HP or SMGs so please, stop putting your words into my mouth.

You previously mentioned “Common routes”? Well let me tell you why this marvel of compact thinking is flawed: if you have 100% invis, non-retrded recon skill and common sense, everywhere is a common route. If you’ve actually been paying attention to the game you’re playing, you can figure out the range of a heartbeat sensor pretty easily, it’s also sht easy to avoid Redeye, just stay out of his FOV and down him before he can detect you.

Also love your quote by the way. It definitely makes you sound less condescending. I’m not sure how I would’ve replied had I not seen it. [/quote]

Because it’s pretty apparent that you don’t understand that even though he has 100% cloak, he is also 100% unable to do anything but position himself. He’s not going to kill anyone until he decloaks. Which is what he should be able to do, if cloak is visible at all, it is useless. They talked about how in a previous alpha that Phantom had trouble getting withing range…I wonder why? Maybe because he’s clearly able to be seen so any advantage invisibility should have is worthless.

But rather than going a more logical route, they gave him armor, which means that even if you can see him, he’s basically going to absorb damage like a sponge till he’s within range. And yes, I get it’s Refractive Armor but he’s clearly a stealth character, there’s no denying that. And as a stealth character he’s a terrible execution.

The Spy in TF2 may be the inspiration here but it’s a tried and true setup that works.

The Spy can get in position regardless of enemy skill, and do his job. Phantom would benefit from this, but victims would also benefit, since they’re aren’t having to shoot a guy that they can clearly see, but is tanking damage like he’s Thunder, and running at the same speed as Sawbonez or Bushwacka.

Part of the reason felt cheap is that felt annoying to fight against, at least with my changes, he’s no more difficult than any other 110 hp class, which was my point.

(FurriesAreAwesome) #42

The concept always sounds great (to a segment of the population), but when it is implemented the problems are always the same. Complete invisibility is annoying to play against, and it is so strong that it needs a slew of nerfs to try to bring it into line.

Will the Dirty Bomb dev team be the first in history to make an invisibility mechanic that is fun to play with and against? I’m not convinced.

Getting behind enemy lines can be a problem - but maybe the problem lies with the map layouts not having enough routes, or routes that are too close or come together too often. This is more of a problem on some maps than others, granted (most of the map work in DB is pretty good), but many of the map sections are very linear.

A class that specializes in infiltration to help with this is a good concept, but it feels like it should be a secondary approach to the problem of being able to flank the enemy. When the solution is adding full invisibility, even with the nerfs that come with it, feels very lazy.

If we want a character to be more mobile, then give him tools that make him mobile. Allow him to more easily get into areas of the maps that are difficult or time consuming to get to. Perhaps there will be routes that only he can access.

Give him quiet footsteps, grappling hooks or some other kind of wall climbing, zip lines, special forward spawn locations, ensure he doesn’t show up on heart beat sensors, higher jumping, maybe even turrets can ignore him if you want to go that far, etc., etc. Make him stealthy and good at infiltration, but not “press button, free ride behind enemy lines” stealthy.

On the topic of giving him a token item that disables things… It’s obviously an attempt to make a lone wolf style character have some kind of pro-team play style, but it doesn’t really feel right to me. It works, I guess, but you could just shoot the darn thing you want to disable instead of disabling it.

A stealthy, infiltration style character seems like a far more likely candidate for heartbeat sensor deployment - he would be in the perfect position to deploy them, marking enemies for his team, providing valuable intel behind enemy lines.

What to give Vassili in exchange for giving up the heartbeat sensor? Beats me, but in a team environment, the sniper being able to gather his own intel doesn’t seem as team oriented as it could be.

(gg2ez) #43

Did you folks forget that cloak drains every time you get hit? And did you forget that Red Eye and Vasilli both have tools to point out where Phantom is?

Personally, I’d trade the armor for the cloak drain on hit aspect to just go away, but I imagine it exists purely because of those mercs. That and explosives like Fragger’s Nades, Proxy Mines, etc, you’d be surprised how easily you’ll hit cloaked Phantom once you know their common routes.[/quote]

So you’ll pretty much have to fire down routes and risk wasting ammo if a Phantom isn’t there? Not to mention the fact that Redeye only detects in the direction he looks, most Phantoms do the whole surprisebuttsecks thing so I think you can count Redeye out unless you use him like a radar and look 360 every 5 secs.[/quote]

Or you know, pay attention to what’s behind you?

You act like killing someone with 110 hp and SMGs is a difficult task.

The difference between Phantom and other characters with the same HP and weapons, is that now, Phantom can actually get behind enemy lines and get picks nobody else could get as easily. Which is exactly what he should be able to do.[/quote]

Actually no, it’s not hard to kill a guy with 110HP and SMGs. Is it hard for you? We’ve got exercises to help you with that. If you read my previous comments you will see that I have mentioned nothing of HP or SMGs so please, stop putting your words into my mouth.

You previously mentioned “Common routes”? Well let me tell you why this marvel of compact thinking is flawed: if you have 100% invis, non-retrded recon skill and common sense, everywhere is a common route. If you’ve actually been paying attention to the game you’re playing, you can figure out the range of a heartbeat sensor pretty easily, it’s also sht easy to avoid Redeye, just stay out of his FOV and down him before he can detect you.

Also love your quote by the way. It definitely makes you sound less condescending. I’m not sure how I would’ve replied had I not seen it. [/quote]

Because it’s pretty apparent that you don’t understand that even though he has 100% cloak, he is also 100% unable to do anything but position himself. He’s not going to kill anyone until he decloaks. Which is what he should be able to do, if cloak is visible at all, it is useless. They talked about how in a previous alpha that Phantom had trouble getting withing range…I wonder why? Maybe because he’s clearly able to be seen so any advantage invisibility should have is worthless.

But rather than going a more logical route, they gave him armor, which means that even if you can see him, he’s basically going to absorb damage like a sponge till he’s within range. And yes, I get it’s Refractive Armor but he’s clearly a stealth character, there’s no denying that. And as a stealth character he’s a terrible execution.

The Spy in TF2 may be the inspiration here but it’s a tried and true setup that works.

The Spy can get in position regardless of enemy skill, and do his job. Phantom would benefit from this, but victims would also benefit, since they’re aren’t having to shoot a guy that they can clearly see, but is tanking damage like he’s Thunder, and running at the same speed as Sawbonez or Bushwacka.

Part of the reason felt cheap is that felt annoying to fight against, at least with my changes, he’s no more difficult than any other 110 hp class, which was my point.
[/quote]

If that’s the case then I’ll just uncloak behind enemies and landshark them to death. Pretty simple m8.

This guys knows.

(watsyurdeal) #44

Did you even read the op or did you just have a knee jerk reaction?

(gg2ez) #45

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;78765”][quote=“gg2ez;78669”]

If that’s the case then I’ll just uncloak behind enemies and landshark them to death. Pretty simple m8.
[/quote]

Did you even read the op or did you just have a knee jerk reaction?[/quote]

I don’t know how good you are at DB but Phant could literally go around a corner or behind cover and uncloak and then sprint his way towards the static Vas aiming at a Skyhammer across the map. Again, not that hard.

(watsyurdeal) #46

[quote=“gg2ez;78777”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;78765”][quote=“gg2ez;78669”]

If that’s the case then I’ll just uncloak behind enemies and landshark them to death. Pretty simple m8.
[/quote]

Did you even read the op or did you just have a knee jerk reaction?[/quote]

I don’t know how good you are at DB but Phant could literally go around a corner or behind cover and uncloak and then sprint his way towards the static Vas aiming at a Skyhammer across the map. Again, not that hard. [/quote]

So a close range specialist defeats a long range specialist? Go figure

And if nobody calls him out, and the Vasilli doesn’t pay attention. Who’s fault is that? Phantom is just doing what he’s designed to do.

(gg2ez) #47

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;78789”][quote=“gg2ez;78777”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;78765”][quote=“gg2ez;78669”]

If that’s the case then I’ll just uncloak behind enemies and landshark them to death. Pretty simple m8.
[/quote]

Did you even read the op or did you just have a knee jerk reaction?[/quote]

I don’t know how good you are at DB but Phant could literally go around a corner or behind cover and uncloak and then sprint his way towards the static Vas aiming at a Skyhammer across the map. Again, not that hard. [/quote]

So a close range specialist defeats a long range specialist? Go figure

And if nobody calls him out, and the Vasilli doesn’t pay attention. Who’s fault is that? Phantom is just doing what he’s designed to do.[/quote]

**From behind.

Would you like a disguise kit with that sir?

(p4v) #48

No matter what you come up with, once you declare to give 100% invisibility, your idea is terrible. I don’t want to deal with stealthers in a fast paced shooter. I have enough of them in MMO RPGs.

(gg2ez) #49

This guy knows some stuff.

(watsyurdeal) #50

[quote=“gg2ez;79070”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;78789”][quote=“gg2ez;78777”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;78765”][quote=“gg2ez;78669”]

If that’s the case then I’ll just uncloak behind enemies and landshark them to death. Pretty simple m8.
[/quote]

Did you even read the op or did you just have a knee jerk reaction?[/quote]

I don’t know how good you are at DB but Phant could literally go around a corner or behind cover and uncloak and then sprint his way towards the static Vas aiming at a Skyhammer across the map. Again, not that hard. [/quote]

So a close range specialist defeats a long range specialist? Go figure

And if nobody calls him out, and the Vasilli doesn’t pay attention. Who’s fault is that? Phantom is just doing what he’s designed to do.[/quote]

**From behind.

Would you like a disguise kit with that sir?[/quote]

With that kind of sarcastic response I can only infer that you are either uneducated about TF2 and how Spy is actually used and played, and or that you basically refuse to actually read my posts and understand my point.

So, I will spell it out for you, just because you can play Phantom on pubs, with random people, who skill varies to awesome, to holy crap how are you that bad, doesn’t mean he’s balanced.

So, I will explain it to you again, as to why he’s not. The first reason, has to do with his execution. According to what you’ll read on Phantom in previous iterations, he was God like in the first Alpha, and was underpowered as hell in the second one.

Why was he op? Who knows, maybe it was because he was fully invisible and could attack while cloaked. Maybe the Katana was way stronger than it is now, or it could be the fact that the game was new and people were still learning to play, who knows? I wasn’t there at the time.

Second iteration, same thing, I wasn’t there, but the common trend I noticed was that he couldn’t get within range to do his job. Was it because he was more visible? Like he is now? Or was it because of the fact that he just a pistol and a sword? I can only infer that because they decided to add armor, on a stealth class no less, that it was because he was visible.

So, all I can infer from this, is that Splash has no freaking clue how to balance a stealth character. And it’s not all difficult. Two games have done a good job already, Team Fortress 2 and Tribes Ascend. The difference between those two games, is that TF2 is way slower, and Tribes is insanely fast, landing melee hits in that game is incredibly difficult and takes a lot of skill. Killing someone while invisible who is stationary is irrelevant, you won’t find that many targets in that game who aren’t moving.

But back to Dirty Bomb, why the TF2 approach? and why would it work? Simple, IT SOLVES THE PROBLEM. It was stated that Phantom had a problem getting in range, and he has that problem even now. Armor DOES NOT solve the problem, it just delays the inevitable for Phantom and makes victims feel like they were cheap shotted by someone they clearly saw.

So, the best way to solve it on both ends, is to make attacking the enemy impossible while cloaked. This way, he has no need for that Armor, and could just have 120 health instead. And, this way, Phantom is not God like, he is entirely possible to catch before he kills someone. Turrets for example, Mines that he does not see. The fact that any decent player is going to go off on their own and will in fact stick with their allies, it’s even mentioned in the don’t be a dick video. So your example of killing a Vasilli from behind is irrelevant, as you or I could kill those same players with a flank even and the result would still be the same.

Allowing full 100% invisible cloak means it’s reliable enough to work against ALL players of ALL skill levels, but forcing him to decloak to attack means he’s not that easy to use since you have to consider cloaking time, distance to travel, and finding a safe place to activate/deactivate so you don’t get killed. Phantom’s tricks will scale with the level of the team he’s being used against, and to say he’d be op with this iteration is too early to call. You won’t know that until he’s been changed.

But if you look at how this setup works in TF2, it works great. And works exactly like you’d expect, 6v6 environments see Spy rarely. He’s a gamble, a trump card that can either win the game for your time, or waste time or even lose it. It’s high risk high reward, which fits in perfectly with Recon classes, Vasilli for example.

Phantom’s current iteration is no more than a pub stomper. Against anyone of decent skill, they will see him coming, and once they do he’s pretty much screwed. He’s not worth playing in a competive environment, and until he is I personally see a problem. And I think my solution is a pretty good one, yours, which is making him less visible, will not solve anything.

He was visible before he was nerfed, so what exactly will that change?

(gg2ez) #51

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;79478”][quote=“gg2ez;79070”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;78789”][quote=“gg2ez;78777”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;78765”][quote=“gg2ez;78669”]

If that’s the case then I’ll just uncloak behind enemies and landshark them to death. Pretty simple m8.
[/quote]

Did you even read the op or did you just have a knee jerk reaction?[/quote]

I don’t know how good you are at DB but Phant could literally go around a corner or behind cover and uncloak and then sprint his way towards the static Vas aiming at a Skyhammer across the map. Again, not that hard. [/quote]

So a close range specialist defeats a long range specialist? Go figure

And if nobody calls him out, and the Vasilli doesn’t pay attention. Who’s fault is that? Phantom is just doing what he’s designed to do.[/quote]

**From behind.

Would you like a disguise kit with that sir?[/quote]

With that kind of sarcastic response I can only infer that you are either uneducated about TF2 and how Spy is actually used and played, and or that you basically refuse to actually read my posts and understand my point.

So, I will spell it out for you, just because you can play Phantom on pubs, with random people, who skill varies to awesome, to holy crap how are you that bad, doesn’t mean he’s balanced.

So, I will explain it to you again, as to why he’s not. The first reason, has to do with his execution. According to what you’ll read on Phantom in previous iterations, he was God like in the first Alpha, and was underpowered as hell in the second one.

Why was he op? Who knows, maybe it was because he was fully invisible and could attack while cloaked. Maybe the Katana was way stronger than it is now, or it could be the fact that the game was new and people were still learning to play, who knows? I wasn’t there at the time.

Second iteration, same thing, I wasn’t there, but the common trend I noticed was that he couldn’t get within range to do his job. Was it because he was more visible? Like he is now? Or was it because of the fact that he just a pistol and a sword? I can only infer that because they decided to add armor, on a stealth class no less, that it was because he was visible.

So, all I can infer from this, is that Splash has no freaking clue how to balance a stealth character. And it’s not all difficult. Two games have done a good job already, Team Fortress 2 and Tribes Ascend. The difference between those two games, is that TF2 is way slower, and Tribes is insanely fast, landing melee hits in that game is incredibly difficult and takes a lot of skill. Killing someone while invisible who is stationary is irrelevant, you won’t find that many targets in that game who aren’t moving.

But back to Dirty Bomb, why the TF2 approach? and why would it work? Simple, IT SOLVES THE PROBLEM. It was stated that Phantom had a problem getting in range, and he has that problem even now. Armor DOES NOT solve the problem, it just delays the inevitable for Phantom and makes victims feel like they were cheap shotted by someone they clearly saw.

So, the best way to solve it on both ends, is to make attacking the enemy impossible while cloaked. This way, he has no need for that Armor, and could just have 120 health instead. And, this way, Phantom is not God like, he is entirely possible to catch before he kills someone. Turrets for example, Mines that he does not see. The fact that any decent player is going to go off on their own and will in fact stick with their allies, it’s even mentioned in the don’t be a dick video. So your example of killing a Vasilli from behind is irrelevant, as you or I could kill those same players with a flank even and the result would still be the same.

Allowing full 100% invisible cloak means it’s reliable enough to work against ALL players of ALL skill levels, but forcing him to decloak to attack means he’s not that easy to use since you have to consider cloaking time, distance to travel, and finding a safe place to activate/deactivate so you don’t get killed. Phantom’s tricks will scale with the level of the team he’s being used against, and to say he’d be op with this iteration is too early to call. You won’t know that until he’s been changed.

But if you look at how this setup works in TF2, it works great. And works exactly like you’d expect, 6v6 environments see Spy rarely. He’s a gamble, a trump card that can either win the game for your time, or waste time or even lose it. It’s high risk high reward, which fits in perfectly with Recon classes, Vasilli for example.

Phantom’s current iteration is no more than a pub stomper. Against anyone of decent skill, they will see him coming, and once they do he’s pretty much screwed. He’s not worth playing in a competive environment, and until he is I personally see a problem. And I think my solution is a pretty good one, yours, which is making him less visible, will not solve anything.

He was visible before he was nerfed, so what exactly will that change?
[/quote]

“Uneducated about TF2” lol m8, I Spy so hard you wouldn’t believe it. I chainstab faster than Donald Trump gets media coverage. Full YER, CnD.

(Kevin) #52

You should know why I am disagreeing with you, false TF2 spy. That Spy isn’t a Spy!

(gg2ez) #53

If there’s one thing I’ve learnt about Spy, it is that you should never disguise as another spy. **That Pyro is a Spy.

(XavienX) #54

Which the devs completely f**ked up with like 20 nerfs on Phantom in one update.

(TheOrangePhantome) #55

TBH i think what would work the best for Phantom the lad is if he had 85% or 90% invisibility and the armour aspect was totally removed or it would just soak up only 15% or 20% of the dmg. I think that in that way he would become a more stealthier class instead or the bezerk he was.

What do you guys think?

([TDBF]Robob) #56

i really dont care because theres this cool merc called redeye you know the guy with the smoke

(gg2ez) #57

I can’t even. Ah Robob, every time I see your comments I just smile.

(OmaGretel) #58

100% invisibility is too easily abused, imo. There would be no way to defend an objective, other than camping right next to it, because otherwise a Phantom could just sneak past you and ninja-plant.
The only buff he needs is to remove his katana, so people start playing him right and using his SMG instead of trying to backstab 1 guy and getting killed by his teammates afterwards.

(neverplayseriou) #59

@OmaGretel now that is what we like to call a nerf, that would be the same as removing both of vass his bolt action snipets…

(watsyurdeal) #60

[quote=“OmaGretel;81779”]100% invisibility is too easily abused, imo. There would be no way to defend an objective, other than camping right next to it, because otherwise a Phantom could just sneak past you and ninja-plant.
The only buff he needs is to remove his katana, so people start playing him right and using his SMG instead of trying to backstab 1 guy and getting killed by his teammates afterwards.[/quote]

So in other words…it’d be op, because a Phantom got behind you and planted a bomb on the point that you should be protecting instead of running around and playing Deathmatch?

Seems fair to me, you weren’t doing your job and he’s absolutely doing his.