3 core changes to Phantom, how do you like them?

(Snark) #21

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;76632”]So, explain to me again the issues here?

[cut for space]

Emulating something that works is not a bad thing to do, as long as it makes sense, and I think it does for the Stealthy merc that Phantom is supposed to be.[/quote]
As I said, phantom has a bad history of being detrimental. You raised the obvious comparison with the Spy which would be my worst case scenario for a merc addition. I am for phantom changes but leery that they may be as fun sucking and out of place as release state open beta phantom or tf2 spy.

(watsyurdeal) #22

[quote=“Snark;76775”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;76632”]So, explain to me again the issues here?

[cut for space]

Emulating something that works is not a bad thing to do, as long as it makes sense, and I think it does for the Stealthy merc that Phantom is supposed to be.[/quote]
As I said, phantom has a bad history of being detrimental. You raised the obvious comparison with the Spy which would be my worst case scenario for a merc addition. I am for phantom changes but leery that they may be as fun sucking and out of place as release state open beta phantom or tf2 spy.[/quote]

He wasn’t detrimental, he just stomped on people with bad awareness and who continuously lone wolf.

And still even in his current form, people complain, because they have this somewhat visible shadow coming at them, taking 75 damage, and can still get in close to slash them to death.

I’ve given you all the things Phantom players would have to consider when using it, and I’ve also pointed out numerous times that Phantom is only as good as enemy team allows him to be. That has nothing to do with whether he is balanced or not, it has everything to do with players simply not working together and being punished for it. It’s no different than what Vasilli can do, or hell even Red Eye for that matter. And since there’s so much more for a Phantom player to consider the minimum skill floor needed to play him correctly is raised, so he won’t be the easy mode that he used to be either.

(Sorotia) #23

I guess I hate these changes is the closest option…the idea I actually do hate out of the three is the one of him only being able to reload while cloaked…personally I think it should be the opposite…I would say he shouldn’t be able to reload without dropping the cloak.

Not only do I not like the idea of reloading while cloaked…I think forcing him to reload while cloaked would also be a bad mechanic…it would put him at a huge disadvantage if he runs out of a clip while his cloak is on cool down.

The EMP…while useful and kinda nifty…would basically counter the things meant to counter his cloak (And if he has 100% stealth that could be a bad thing…plus would it effect Red Eye?)

(neverplayseriou) #24

@cherryOctagon i think he means that u can only reload during cloack as in u can’t attack or defuse with cloack on…

(Snark) #25

A majority of *people found phantom made the game less fun. That is what I mean when I use the term detrimental. I’d explain why but I think a lot of people have been over that, at great length and in a discussion that it wouldn’t be beneficial to rehash.

*people, including competition players who wanted to also enjoy public games, who aren’t blind lone wolves.

(Grave_Knight) #26

A majority of *people found phantom made the game less fun. That is what I mean when I use the term detrimental. I’d explain why but I think a lot of people have been over that, at great length and in a discussion that it wouldn’t be beneficial to rehash.

*people, including competition players who wanted to also enjoy public games, who aren’t blind lone wolves.[/quote]

Yeah, but the comp players adapted, as well as the majority of regular players. Most the people who were complaining, I bet you, didn’t even have level 10. Though, that’s the main reason I think he shouldn’t be available to level 6; so he doesn’t just steamroll newbie players.

Besides, while I was getting 30+ kills with Phantom at first, by day three or four I was barely hitting 15+ because people adapted. So he wasn’t nearly as bad as everyone claimed.

(ttownjoe) #27

any change to phantom that involves him keeping a fn OP shield is stupid, the whole character idea is stupid… to give him kek10 + invisibility + shield + decent speed and health. Look at tf2 the invisible character has a crappy pistol, most fragile character in game, and can only knife kill limited to a tiny hitbox backstab. Phantom is still way OP its just the whiners that had no skill want a buff because he is not as super OP anymore.

(Snark) #28

I’d urge you to go back to the many, many phantom discussions. Some of them hit on the problems, which weren’t about adaptation or being statistically over/under powered.

(frolicsomeCrane) #29

While I do agree with the first two, I feel like the third one would be way too overpowered of an ability.

Take this for example:

Bridge map.

Defenders have the generator up, and the EV is right in front of the generator wall, phantom comes up, disables it and the EV just goes over the generator wall.

This ability sounds really easy to exploit and it would really be the downfall of teams that would generally have won a game a while ago.

Oh wait, I thought you meant stuff you repair and shit, disregard that then…

But it would still render most abilities useless, which is nice… but compared to the other recons… Well… there won’t really be a point to play any other recon cuz y’know… EVERYONE GETTING DISABLED.

(Gh0st1e) #30

If you are going to give him 100% invisibility then you would have to make him a TF2 spy clone and only allow 1hit kills to come from behind. You can’t give a character full invis and allow them to run straight at opponents for a 1 hit kill. That’s possibly worse than phantoms initial install in game.

(watsyurdeal) #31

Why? They’re already doing that, except with this change, the cloak won’t just absorb damage since you can’t be using it, and attack at the same time.

So both the cloak and armor become positioning tools, but you still have to fight fair with people in order to get kills.

(Myself_Deal_with_it) #32
  1. Full invisibility is not the solution, you have to see him when you expect him, mayby an idea to try something with the angles?
  2. the no-action-while-clocked & no absorb damage fix is nice
  3. the EMP is a good idea but just not for phantom, mayby turtle???
(FurriesAreAwesome) #33

I’ve played other games in the past with the “100% invisibility, strong close quarters combatant” thing, and found it to be rather frustrating. Then again, the current cloak implementation is, quite frankly, not very difficult to pick out once you get used to it.

Complete invisibility just feels like a lazy way to fix the problem.

But: I’m willing to give it a shot and see how it plays out. It might not be too bad.

Have you considered making Phantom an infiltration expert instead of just “the invisible guy with the sword”? Consider, for example, a “stealth zip line” that will carry players from Point A to Point B (not teleportation, mind), giving them the current cloak and some damage reduction while using the zipline?

This promotes team play, allows Phantom to help other people, can open up more movement around the maps, etc., etc., and could be offered in addition to the EMP and/or current cloak.

It wouldn’t be useful in all areas of every map, but neither is the turret. Like all abilities, it should be something situational.

(gg2ez) #34

Hold the phone. 100% invisibility and no shield is technically 100% shield. You’d have to be pretty sh*t to get shot while fully visible. How would you justify this?

(FurriesAreAwesome) #35

[quote=“gg2ez;77854”]100% invisibility and no shield is technically 100% shield. […] How would you justify this?[/quote]I think the justification is that the cloak duration limitation and audio cues will be enough of a drawback that it doesn’t become too strong an ability.

I’m not convinced, either. Complete invisibility is really strong even if steps are taken to try to mitigate that strength.

But we’ll see.

(watsyurdeal) #36

Did you folks forget that cloak drains every time you get hit? And did you forget that Red Eye and Vasilli both have tools to point out where Phantom is?

Personally, I’d trade the armor for the cloak drain on hit aspect to just go away, but I imagine it exists purely because of those mercs. That and explosives like Fragger’s Nades, Proxy Mines, etc, you’d be surprised how easily you’ll hit cloaked Phantom once you know their common routes.

(gg2ez) #37

Did you folks forget that cloak drains every time you get hit? And did you forget that Red Eye and Vasilli both have tools to point out where Phantom is?

Personally, I’d trade the armor for the cloak drain on hit aspect to just go away, but I imagine it exists purely because of those mercs. That and explosives like Fragger’s Nades, Proxy Mines, etc, you’d be surprised how easily you’ll hit cloaked Phantom once you know their common routes.[/quote]

So you’ll pretty much have to fire down routes and risk wasting ammo if a Phantom isn’t there? Not to mention the fact that Redeye only detects in the direction he looks, most Phantoms do the whole surprisebuttsecks thing so I think you can count Redeye out unless you use him like a radar and look 360 every 5 secs.

(watsyurdeal) #38

Did you folks forget that cloak drains every time you get hit? And did you forget that Red Eye and Vasilli both have tools to point out where Phantom is?

Personally, I’d trade the armor for the cloak drain on hit aspect to just go away, but I imagine it exists purely because of those mercs. That and explosives like Fragger’s Nades, Proxy Mines, etc, you’d be surprised how easily you’ll hit cloaked Phantom once you know their common routes.[/quote]

So you’ll pretty much have to fire down routes and risk wasting ammo if a Phantom isn’t there? Not to mention the fact that Redeye only detects in the direction he looks, most Phantoms do the whole surprisebuttsecks thing so I think you can count Redeye out unless you use him like a radar and look 360 every 5 secs.[/quote]

Or you know, pay attention to what’s behind you?

You act like killing someone with 110 hp and SMGs is a difficult task.

The difference between Phantom and other characters with the same HP and weapons, is that now, Phantom can actually get behind enemy lines and get picks nobody else could get as easily. Which is exactly what he should be able to do.

(gg2ez) #39

Did you folks forget that cloak drains every time you get hit? And did you forget that Red Eye and Vasilli both have tools to point out where Phantom is?

Personally, I’d trade the armor for the cloak drain on hit aspect to just go away, but I imagine it exists purely because of those mercs. That and explosives like Fragger’s Nades, Proxy Mines, etc, you’d be surprised how easily you’ll hit cloaked Phantom once you know their common routes.[/quote]

So you’ll pretty much have to fire down routes and risk wasting ammo if a Phantom isn’t there? Not to mention the fact that Redeye only detects in the direction he looks, most Phantoms do the whole surprisebuttsecks thing so I think you can count Redeye out unless you use him like a radar and look 360 every 5 secs.[/quote]

Or you know, pay attention to what’s behind you?

You act like killing someone with 110 hp and SMGs is a difficult task.

The difference between Phantom and other characters with the same HP and weapons, is that now, Phantom can actually get behind enemy lines and get picks nobody else could get as easily. Which is exactly what he should be able to do.[/quote]

Actually no, it’s not hard to kill a guy with 110HP and SMGs. Is it hard for you? We’ve got exercises to help you with that. If you read my previous comments you will see that I have mentioned nothing of HP or SMGs so please, stop putting your words into my mouth.

You previously mentioned “Common routes”? Well let me tell you why this marvel of compact thinking is flawed: if you have 100% invis, non-retrded recon skill and common sense, everywhere is a common route. If you’ve actually been paying attention to the game you’re playing, you can figure out the range of a heartbeat sensor pretty easily, it’s also sht easy to avoid Redeye, just stay out of his FOV and down him before he can detect you.

Also love your quote by the way. It definitely makes you sound less condescending. I’m not sure how I would’ve replied had I not seen it.

(Grave_Knight) #40

@gg2ez If you haven’t figured it out, he just wants the TF2 Spy in Dirty Bomb. Like I’m surprised he hasn’t asked that Phantom be given a device to sabotage turrets and the ability to disguise himself.