3 core changes to Phantom, how do you like them?

(watsyurdeal) #1

1. Phantom now has 100% full invisibility

This way people can’t see him coming in, if that sounds op, keep reading

2. Phantom can ONLY reload while cloaked, he cannot attack, defuse, plant, help up, any action other than reload

This is a compromise change, in exchange for full invisibility, now Phantom has to make tactical careful decisions of when to use his cloak and turn it off. Meaning he can no longer attack while invisible, so no more bum rushing you and sponging damage like he could before. If you try to do anything other than reloading, he’ll simply do his animation, and THEN you can do what you wish, stabbing, planting, whatever.

More specifics you ask? Well, the time to activate cloak is about 1 second, his right hand clicks a button on his left, then the cloak turns on. That 1 second is enough time for someone to hear his cloak or catch him in the middle of things, and start damaging him, draining his cloak meter instantly, preventing an escape or damaging while he is unable to defend himself until the process is done.

This solves so many of the problems Phantom had before, by forcing smarter use of the Refractive Armor and making it possible to counter by an aware player or if the Phantom in question is careless.

3. Phantom now has an EMP, think of Vasilli’s Motion Sensor, but disable buildings in range

Exactly as it sounds, think of the motion sensor, literally the exact same thing, except for a different model, and what happens instead is any buildings within range are disabled, NOT DESTROYED, DISABLED (caps for clarity).

So while in this disabled state, they stop functioning, meaning the turret won’t shoot anymore, the mines won’t trip when someone is near, and the healing station stops healing. Like the motion sensors, the enemy can see the emp, and destroy it. And once destroyed, the deployables will do their “wind ups”, and go back to normal.

This is GREAT for dealing with Rhinos hugging a healing station, turrets in spots people can’t see but can be killed by, and mines that are dangerous to shoot at the risk of killing yourself or a team mate by accident. And it gives Phantom a utility that makes him distinct, and worth using over other classes with similar health, speed, and weapons.

The recharge time is 20, and it’ll stay for about 15 seconds before disappearing like the motion sensor does.

(gg2ez) #2

Well I don’t really “hate” these ideas. I just think that Phantom should remain a ghostly aggressor and not a TF2 Spy clone. I like the EMP idea but I think that Phantom should still remain at least 8% visibility.

(K1X455) #3

The EMP idea is something already implemented by the augment called “Enigma”. Any more, then you’re just buffing Phantom to gain an upper hand. Buff or Nerf to balance… not because Phantom is your boy toy.

Reloading is inherent to all mercs whether they have ability in effect or not. Don’t change this.

I know invisibility got heavily nerfed but I think it’s OK. What would make more sense is to reduce the “whirring” sound of his cloak by 50%

(Killerbee) #4

All he needs is a reliable way to avoid detection and he will be fine.

(K1X455) #5

I’d be making another thread similar, but I think it would be best if I just suggest it to the devs (humbly) here.

  • Because of Aura and Sparks movement speed, Phantom is outclassed in his turf of melee specialist. So in line with this, Phantom’s movement could get a buff,
  • Or his “refractive armor” can get the previous protection he used to get where it doesn’t decrease his health as long as he is cloaked without any movement penalty. It’s sufficient enough that a sound is emitted when he gets hit while cloaked.
  • Return awarding XP while cloaked; I believe he’s the only merc that doesn’t gain XP while using his one and only abilty.
(Eox) #6

There’s not a thousand of solutions to the Phantom issue. While that one is heavily inspired by TF2, it’s the best option I have read so far : it’s inspired by a système that already demonstrated its abilities, it thinks about counterplay as well as possibilities for the Phantom player, and overall increase Phantom’s valuability in a team, which was something needed.

Phantom was not supposed to be a melee specialist. No characters were supposed to be as far as I know, though Phantom had indeed the Katana as a primary weapon in an older version of DB, but that idea was dumped very quickly. His ability just made melee gameplay easier, but when I have a KEK-10 as a primary I hardly see why I should exploit more my Katana than the best SMG in the game. Actually, he was, and he’s still best used headshotting people from behind. If anything, I think it’s the playerbase that assumed his role was to play melee. Let’s not forget, he does not have a SMG as primary for nothing.

(Kaos88) #7

He sounds like spy which is the most hated class in TF2. No thanks. I don’t want the invis to be better as i hate cloak in games all together. You wouldn’t be given a chance to stop him killing you if you can’t ever see him. Therefore bringing back cheap kills and unavoidable deaths again.

(Snark) #8

I’m kinda against 100% invisible because a flank should require skill to set up. The time in cloak would have to be low enough that it’s not a press ability to effortlessly flank so it requires timing and planning to pull off within the cloak time and could be soft countered by players hearing a decloaking audio cue and being more aware of their flanks.

Regardless of balance, would 100% invis add something fun to the game or would it just feel frustrating to play against?

(watsyurdeal) #9

Well first of all, that statement is purely an opinion, not a fact. It depends on what the player mains, their playstyle, what type of maps they like, etc. I for example HATE Engineers, I love Payload and Capture the Flag, and Engineers bring those game modes to absolute halt. And you either need a good Spy to coordinate and time his saps with your Demo or Soldier, or an Uber. And the Wrangler and Gunslinger just made him more frustrating, especially on KOTH.

But again, that’s an opinion.

Second, how do you not have a chance?

If you read the post, the Refractive Armor takes 1 second to activate/deactivate, so in that 1 second you have a good opportunity to kill him before he can start doing work. And considering the time to kill in this game that’s a pretty easy feat, if you don’t kill him he’ll definitely at least lose a huge chunk of his health.

On top of that, there’s an audio cue, so if he tries to decloak behind someone who’s paying attention, they can turn around and engage him before he can strike. And that’s absolutely possible, just because a bad player may not be able to do it in no way means it’s unbalanced. It just means that player needs to pay attention, we shouldn’t be lowering the expectations from what we define a good player, that just leads to the game being more casual and having little depth.

What makes Phantom cheap and unavoidable is the fact that he can tank damage, while rushing you, and before you finally get his shield off of him, he’s already in close range and able to slash you to death or blitz your head with his gun.

That is what makes him frustrating, the armor, not the cloak aspect, the cloak itself is useless since anyone with good eyes can pick him out.

[quote=“Snark”]
Regardless of balance, would 100% invis add something fun to the game or would it just feel frustrating to play against?[/quote]

I think it would add a real purpose to Phantom, and would not be nearly as frustrating to deal with since there are plenty of cues and chances to hear and spot Phantom before he can attack.

Not only that, forcing the player to decloak to do anything forces smarter play, increasing the skill floor needed to play him.

In his current state, if he can’t even get behind enemy lines without flanking, something any other class can do without cloak, then he’s useless. But the armor still is frustrating to deal with, so it’s a lose lose no matter how you look at it.

At least this way both sides can get something out of it, Phantom players get better tools to do their job, and his victims have a better chance at countering him.

[quote=“K1X455”]
The EMP idea is something already implemented by the augment called “Enigma”. Any more, then you’re just buffing Phantom to gain an upper hand. Buff or Nerf to balance… not because Phantom is your boy toy.[/quote]

All engima does is reduce how long you appear on the map when spotted, it only affects the Heartbeat Sensor and the IR Goggles. So that has literally nothing to do with the EMP, you’re thinking of Untrackable, which doesn’t affect the Healing Station at all and is not available to every class. Not only that but that’s not a strong argument to say it shouldn’t be added. That’s like saying we have looter so why does Sawbonez and Sparks need medpacks? Becuase not every class and loadout HAS Looter, so those fill the gap and are available at any time.

EMP does something similar, it fulfills a needed niche that is available at any time, and is absolutely useful in enforcing good team play. It would the best way to do with Rhino hugging a healing station for example, which is a frustrating thing to deal with on Pubs.

[quote=“gg2ez”]
Well I don’t really “hate” these ideas. I just think that Phantom should remain a ghostly aggressor and not a TF2 Spy clone. I like the EMP idea but I think that Phantom should still remain at least 8% visibility.[/quote]

Well considring that role is basically useless for any sort of coordinated play, I have to disagree.

Phantom can be used, and he is fun to play to a degree, but he’s not worth using over Sawbonez or Bush for example, who can have the same guns, same health, but do more for their team. If I wanna kill people, I’d be better off using Vasilli or Fragger.

(Kaos88) #10

@whatsyurdeal I’m talking about him going around a corner and then cloaking running behind a group. while you are fighting you are not going to be hearing or be able to concentrate on the annoying ninja decloaking behind you before you can react. Unlike spy, he don’t need a back stab. He just slashes you twice and you drop. You don’t need the refractive shield if you don’t see him in the 1st place so he won’t be having to take any damage. This would be purely a buff to him with very little downsides and the shield don’t help him when he is in combat anyway. It’s only a means on closing the distance. With this cloak you would have no problem what so ever.

I’m guessing by your adding of “bad player” you are trying to suggest i am 1. I am far from it. Which i why i want this game to be aim based and not melee / cheap killing with no effort to be in it. If i’m fighting some1 with no chance of winning no matter how good my aim vs theirs, due to not being able to see him before it’s already too late, There is something wrong. The only bad players I see here are the ones trying to buff phantom to get there skilless class back to kicking ass with the least amount of effort needed. Rather than doing the good old ‘aim for the head’ trick.

(watsyurdeal) #11

If people are already so unaware that they can’t see a Phantom right in front of them, then they won’t pay attention to a Phantom decloaking behind them either.

And if Phantom can not get behind enemy lines with players who aren’t blind, then what is the point? At that point all Refractive Armor is doing is sponging damage, which is way more infuriating than a Phantom who has to reveal himself to attack you. Since it doesn’t take NEARLY as much to take him out.

Also, this would still require skill from Phantom, timing, when to cloak, distance you need to travel, when to decloak, where, are you decloaking at a time when the enemy is distracted and won’t notice you, or are they looking for you and can easily spot you or take you out before you can get in range.

This method is a lot more tacitcal, because a lot more though and a lot more factors you have to consider before making your move.

There is not very little downsides, there are plenty in that you have many more factors to consider, and therefore much more risk if you mess it up.

[quote=“Kaos88;76552”]
I’m guessing by your adding of “bad player” you are trying to suggest i am 1. I am far from it. Which i why i want this game to be aim based and not melee / cheap killing with no effort to be in it. If i’m fighting some1 with no chance of winning no matter how good my aim vs theirs, due to not being able to see him before it’s already too late, There is something wrong. The only bad players I see here are the ones trying to buff phantom to get there skilless class back to kicking ass with the least amount of effort needed. Rather than doing the good old ‘aim for the head’ trick.[/quote]

I’m not suggesting anything, I am simply saying that if you already can’t take notice of a Phantom who is right in front of you, then this change won’t affect you either way, because the problem would be awareness, it wouldn’t mean Phantom would be too strong.

And it wouldn’t be cheap because you have EVERY cue that you need to figure out where Phantom is, the decloak makes noise, he takes about 1 second before he can actually harm you, giving you plenty of time to either damage or notice him. And to top it off, he’s perfectly visible once he’s decloaked, so if you can’t see him coming it’s your own damn fault for not paying attention. That’s not a balance issue, it is a PLAYER issue no matter how you try to spin it.

And if you’re going to that route and assume that only bad players want him buffed, I’ll just assume only bad players want him nerfed or want him nerfed even more.

(aRagRappy) #12

I think the thing phantom needs most is the shield removed, cloaked slightly less visible and most importantly another ability to use after he has flanked the enemy. The emp might be good, probably one of the better ideas for phantom I’ve seen so far. Though phantom desperately needs a 2nd ability to actually make him a recon that he’s supposed to be and not a shitty assault.

(CCP115) #13

It’s not the perfect solution, but it’s good, albeit you did borrow quite heavily from the TF2 spy.

100% invis seems fine to me. You aren’t able to attack straight out of cloak, meaning your positioning while cloaking and decloaking actually matters.

That sapper idea is a great one, as it adds a team element, something I feel Phantom has always lacked.

Overall, it’s still better than current Phantom. the refractive “armor” was totally broken and overpowered, and I would much rather a cloak that didn’t protect at all. However, that might be reserved for another character. Phantom seems to be set in stone by SD, and they want him to be a tank of sorts.

(watsyurdeal) #14

[quote=“CCP115;76618”]It’s not the perfect solution, but it’s good, albeit you did borrow quite heavily from the TF2 spy.

100% invis seems fine to me. You aren’t able to attack straight out of cloak, meaning your positioning while cloaking and decloaking actually matters.

That sapper idea is a great one, as it adds a team element, something I feel Phantom has always lacked.

Overall, it’s still better than current Phantom. the refractive “armor” was totally broken and overpowered, and I would much rather a cloak that didn’t protect at all. However, that might be reserved for another character. Phantom seems to be set in stone by SD, and they want him to be a tank of sorts.[/quote]

I think the only reason he even has the armor is because of Red Eye and the motion sensors, since those reveal him.

Other than that I can’t see why they would add that mechanic on a stealth class.

(Snark) #15

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;76544”] I think it would add a real purpose to Phantom, and would not be nearly as frustrating to deal with since there are plenty of cues and chances to hear and spot Phantom before he can attack.

[cut for space]

At least this way both sides can get something out of it, Phantom players get better tools to do their job, and his victims have a better chance at countering him.[/quote]

That isn’t necessarily true since flanking confers a significant advantage and shouldn’t be easy to achieve.Decloaking behind a corner or other obstacle isn’t hard, in and of itself. If it is overly easy, phantom will be viewed as the cheap character acting as a crutch for low skilled players and again detract from the gameplay for the majority of players. Right now, Phantom is weak enough that he doesn’t.

I think Phantom should be changed in some way as he isn’t adding much to the game but my concern with any changes are that he not go back to damaging the gameplay, which is, of course, separate from if he’s statistically over or under performing. Fragger, for instance, is too strong but nerfing him too much is going to also buff the boring, static defenses prevalent in public games that he can break up.

(watsyurdeal) #16

[quote=“Snark;76623”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;76544”] I think it would add a real purpose to Phantom, and would not be nearly as frustrating to deal with since there are plenty of cues and chances to hear and spot Phantom before he can attack.

[cut for space]

At least this way both sides can get something out of it, Phantom players get better tools to do their job, and his victims have a better chance at countering him.[/quote]

That isn’t necessarily true since flanking confers a significant advantage and shouldn’t be easy to achieve.[/quote]

Except that it is, it’s entirely dependent on the team you’re playing against. If they aren’t covering their flanks at all, then you won’t need Phantom, which is why I opted for the EMP to give him another niche that he can use.

[quote=“Snark;76623”]
Decloaking behind a corner or other obstacle isn’t hard, in and of itself. If it is overly easy, phantom will be viewed as the cheap character acting as a crutch for low skilled players and again detract from the gameplay for the majority of players. Right now, Phantom is weak enough that he doesn’t. [/quote]

It’s not overly easy, that’s just theory crafting. In reality it’s going to be a lot more difficult since the cloak doesn’t last forever, even with the augment that extends it’s duration.

Here is what you’re going to have to factor in when using cloak

  • The distance you need to travel to get to that position
  • Where you should cloak, to avoid being seen and giving away your position prematurely.
  • Not bumping into anyone, taking any damage from enemies, or running into explosives like mines and strikes.
  • Where you decloak, since if you decloak in a spot covered by say, a turret, or is a spot near where the enemies tend to be concentrated, they can spot you and you’re forced into a fight, potentially a 1 vs 2+
  • How close you are to an enemy when you decloak, this happened in TF2 as well, as overtime people started to listen to decloak noise. And would be able pick it out over everything else, even over voice chat. So if they hear it, they know where you are, and that ruins your first shot advantage.

Plus, unlike Spy, Phantom can only kill 100 hp classes in one hit with his Katana, and that’s with Chopper equipped. Anyone else will take damage, and call out where you are, and due to the delay of the lunge animation, they will likely survive, or even if they do get killed, they may not be gibbed, so all that effort is wasted when the enemy medic picks him back up.

[quote=“Snark;76623”]
I think Phantom should be changed in some way as he isn’t adding much to the game but my concern with any changes are that he not go back to damaging the gameplay, which is, of course, separate from if he’s statistically over or under performing. Fragger, for instance, is too strong but nerfing him too much is going to also buff the boring, static defenses prevalent in public games that he can break up.[/quote]

Well currently, Phantom is arguably one of the lower tier mercs, there are others with the same health, same speed, and same weapons, and have other, more useful abilities. Like Bush and Sawbonez.

All Phantom has is his cloak, which only fools people with terrible awareness, and basically is still broken as it only delays the inevitable death he’ll recieve when he’s caught. That aspect of it is what’s cheap, that he can take 75 damage, and still have 110 health left, meaning he can rush characters like Kira and Proxy and still win, even if they are nailing him in the head.

This change to his cloak SOLVES that problem, by giving people a chance for a fair fight, no damage sponging or tanking, he has to drop his cloak in order to attack, and from there it’s like any other confrontation. Who strikes first, who has better aim, who has better dodging, etc.

Besides the cloak, he also has the katana, which the devs have stated that other mercs may have in the future, and not all of Phantom’s loadout have the katana to begin with.

So, explain to me again the issues here?

How is my suggestion any less fun for people facing Phantom, and how is it making things worse for Phantom players? It’s a win win for everyone involved, at this point the only reason I can see people disliking it is because it obviously draws a comparison to the Spy in TF2. But the Spy can do the following

  • Instantly kill ANYONE he wants
  • Can perform trick stabs which are improvised stabs using field of view and surrounding objects
  • Can disguise as enemy players to hide himself until he can get in position, and protect himself from sentries.

And there’s much more but I really don’t wanna write a whole essay of my time playing Spy. The point is this, yes, there are similarities, but Phantom will not function the same manner.

Emulating something that works is not a bad thing to do, as long as it makes sense, and I think it does for the Stealthy merc that Phantom is supposed to be.

(LANshark) #17

how about instead of an emp you give him an ability that you can press to instantly reveal all players in a small radius but takes you out of cloak if you have it.
i would have woted yes if he could spot people instead of disrupting what other people are trying to do (it will probably come later in a different merc).

(watsyurdeal) #18

Because I think it works better for an assassin to have some way of sabotaging enemy tools to help his team. And arguably spotting is already on Red Eye so, I don’t see a point.

(reciprocal) #19

There are a couple of things that the TF2 spy has against him that you haven’t included in your list. If you do I’d probably support your proposal:

  1. De-cloaking - Spies have to spend about a second to decloak at which they are fully visible and vulnerable. De-cloaking makes a loud sound to notify that the spy is behind you so they spy has to consider where he turns off cloak.
  2. Pyro checking - Pyros have a large and quick AOE attack to flush out spies. DB has other recons but because of the 3-merc limit it’s not a reliable means of detecting Phantom. How do you propose giving other mercs a chance to check for Phantoms?
  3. Sound - Possibly due to the age of TF2, there aren’t a lot of explosive noises to drown out the noise of the spy. Therefore, when crossing through enemies, they spy needs to crab-walk to minimise footstep noise. How would you equate this to the Phantom who would be able to run at top speed through enemies?
(watsyurdeal) #20

[quote=“reciprocal;76767”]There are a couple of things that the TF2 spy has against him that you haven’t included in your list. If you do I’d probably support your proposal:

  1. De-cloaking - Spies have to spend about a second to decloak at which they are fully visible and vulnerable. De-cloaking makes a loud sound to notify that the spy is behind you so they spy has to consider where he turns off cloak.[/quote]

They already have that for Phantom, armor makes noise while Phantom is nearby, and it makes noise when decloaks.

[quote=“reciprocal;76767”]
2) Pyro checking - Pyros have a large and quick AOE attack to flush out spies. DB has other recons but because of the 3-merc limit it’s not a reliable means of detecting Phantom. How do you propose giving other mercs a chance to check for Phantoms?[/quote]

Red Eye and Vasilli both have the tools neccessary to reveal Phantom

Any explosive damage is enough to drop his cloak, so spam is still a very real counter here. Plus, once Stoker is added I’m sure that’ll also be a great counter to at the very least, prevent Phantom from escaping or preventing him for coming into certain areas.

[quote=“reciprocal;76767”]
3) Sound - Possibly due to the age of TF2, there aren’t a lot of explosive noises to drown out the noise of the spy. Therefore, when crossing through enemies, they spy needs to crab-walk to minimise footstep noise. How would you equate this to the Phantom who would be able to run at top speed through enemies?[/quote]

Again, the Armor makes noise, you can hear Phantom come by if he gets close to you.