(Yet Another) Thunder Rebalance Poll

[_WAR_Larknok1]

Vote for the option you most agree with. Obviously, you won’t agree with everything in any option, but pick the closest one.

[SaulWolfden]

I voted the second option, but it’s more or less I think only like 10 hp max should be what he gets buffed with, and his hitbox needs to only be a bit normalized, I’m more in favor of a larger buff for the lmg damage though (damage wise).

[strawberryJacket]

He doesnt need more damage on his lmg, he needs better accuracy.

If you want high damage high rof rng machine play rhino imo.

[Tanker_Ray]

I will tell you exact perfect balancing him for all of you guys.

MK.46 : If damage is going to be buffed(to 12 like back then, 145 DPS), maintain its bullet spread. If bullet spread is going to be buffed, if slight, maintain the damage and give more RPM. If buff is huge, remain the damage and 132 DPS. Right now this gun has low damage high bullet spread which is very absurd that reload once and shooting 90rounds with Kek-10 is MUCH better than this damn gun. I know if they roll-back 145 DPS with past recoil would make K-121 less powerful, BUT I do think if they are going to maintain Thunder’s 160 squishy HP, then I strongly insist to roll back all those stats, sacrificing my tankyness. This gun should be stronger than any other Assault’s primary weapon accept minigun, since
Fragger and Nader already have their splash-damaging high firepower skills.

HP, and hitbox stats : I actually don’t want his hit box to be smaller. His concept is heavy infantry, which has to be close to Rhino. AND His 160 HP is closer to Fragger, not thino now. Thunder needs at least 175(right between Fragger and Rhino), or 180 HP to tank enough damage in current state. But like I said before, if they are going to roll-back all of those past stats for MK.46, then I’ll be fine with my 160 HP. When you use rifle, fire power problem and movement speed problem does solve a bit, but still Thunder is quite weak 1 vs 1, Especially FEMALE MERC WITH SHOTGUN.

Concussionade : Definitely needs bug fix and NERF. Cooldown is way too short. I think it needs around 20~25 cool down. Just give Thunder a good weapon, so that I won’t depend too much on this. Right now, Thunder’s squishyness and BAD LMG makes him as chance-seeker, not an Assault. Only time Thunder works properly, is when you concuss ALL of them. Such a dick, when you only wait for your 17sec cool down.

Thunder is so unstable whenever unconcussed enemies starts to counter-attack fire at you, and this is just because Thunder has much weaker firepower than Fragger, furthermore squishy stat compared to Rhino.

I want my 180HP and MK.46 buff(damage or spread, either of it doesn’t matter to me. Again I emphasize, just make it weaker than Minigun, but stronger than any other primary weapons, since Nader and Fragger already have their own damaging skills.), and concussionade nerf& bug fix RIGHT NOW.

[_WAR_Larknok1]

@Strawberry: Have you played as Thunder yet? The problem isn’t hitting people – compared to Rhino, Thunder fires a laser beam. The problem is that Thunder can’t deliver DPS as easily as enemies can to him. The size of his hitbox means he’s way more likely to take a bullet than Fragger is, and with only 10 more health – playing Thunder surprisingly makes you feel like playing a squishy class.

Take a look at Rhino’s Balance – large hitbox (close to Thunder’s), 200 health to compensate, and 300+ DPS (most have 125ish).

Even then, Rhino is hardly viable in competetive. Now leave the hitbox the same, decrease health by 40, increase speed a little bit, increase accuracy by A LOT, cut DPS down by more than half to 135 (as low as 80 at a distance) and give him a concussion that blinds himself for as long as he concusses direct hits if he even has a single pixel of the thing visible on screen – and you get Thunder.

[RyePanda]

I mean, for a poll on balance, there should be a nerf option, or an option for buffs and nerfs. Personally I think 100% white screen is just way too annoying and powerful. Changing a user’s sensitivity is just not fun at all. 160Hp is quite a bit already, though I think his weapons could use a buff

[Mr-Penguin]

How to fix concs:

1. Fix the damn bugs.
2. Decrease flash radius, add a flash XP popup on the bottom at the screen so you know who’s been flashed
3. Increase concussion effect radius by a little bit
4. Increase reliability, give Thunder partial flash resistance

[RyePanda]

[quote=“derpypenguinz19;116808”]How to fix concs:

1. Fix the damn bugs.
2. Decrease flash radius, add a flash XP popup on the bottom at the screen so you know who’s been flashed
3. Increase concussion effect radius by a little bit
4. Increase reliability, give Thunder partial flash resistance[/quote]

You shouldn’t know who’s been flashed. Just like how you don’t know who splash damage hurt

[Mr-Penguin]

[quote=“RyePanda;116820”][quote=“derpypenguinz19;116808”]How to fix concs:

1. Fix the damn bugs.
2. Decrease flash radius, add a flash XP popup on the bottom at the screen so you know who’s been flashed
3. Increase concussion effect radius by a little bit
4. Increase reliability, give Thunder partial flash resistance[/quote]

You shouldn’t know who’s been flashed. Just like how you don’t know who splash damage hurt[/quote]
Not who, how many. Kinda like the Splash Damage XP.

[JJMAJR]

Thunder is an Assault class, that works against other assault classes. As well as buildings. And snipers.

The only problem he has is against fire support classes. If only because he’s bad against explosives himself.

I think he should be rebalanced appropriately so that all of this is taken into account. Once the bugs are fixed, Thunder’s balancing could be seen in a more rational light, and then we could go from there to balance the class.

But in my opinion, he’s very powerful in his current state if you don’t flash your own friendlies.

[RyePanda]

[quote=“derpypenguinz19;116836”][quote=“RyePanda;116820”][quote=“derpypenguinz19;116808”]How to fix concs:

1. Fix the damn bugs.
2. Decrease flash radius, add a flash XP popup on the bottom at the screen so you know who’s been flashed
3. Increase concussion effect radius by a little bit
4. Increase reliability, give Thunder partial flash resistance[/quote]

You shouldn’t know who’s been flashed. Just like how you don’t know who splash damage hurt[/quote]
Not who, how many. Kinda like the Splash Damage XP.[/quote]

Alright, thanks for explaining, and yes, I’d support that.

[serpentinePicture]

I think Thunder needs no backpack on him and slightly more accurate machine gun.

His personal LMG, stat wise, is almost like the Fragger LMG.

[_WAR_Larknok1]

[quote=“serpentinePicture;116903”]I think Thunder needs no backpack on him and slightly more accurate machine gun.

His personal LMG, stat wise, is almost like the Fragger LMG.[/quote]

The backpack isn’t a hitbox. Bullets go right through. His problem is that the rest of him so huge that he can’t help but take 50-60% of the bullets fired at him, rather than what the average merc takes – ~30%.

[_WAR_Larknok1]

These are all of Thunder’s weaknesses that severely hold him back at the moment:

1. He’s huge and slow. If the average merc takes ~30% of the bullets fired at him, you can bet your bottom dollar Thunder takes 50-60%.

2. His health does not make up for 1). 10 more than Fragger with a hitbox way, way larger and slightly lower move speed means that Thunder feels like the squishiest merc in the game. By no means does he feel like Fragger +10 hp.

3. His LMG damage output is quite mediocre for someone that takes so much damage. At 11 damage per round and 725 rpm, Thunder only has 133 DPS on his LMG. At medium to long range, the damage per shot drops to 7, giving Thunder a DPS of 85 at a distance.

Rhino is the only fair comparison to look at these DPS stats, because no other Merc shares Thunder’s a) Size, b) Speed, and c) Reliance on CQC to do adequate damage and not be totally punished for being a damage sponge.

Rhino’s DPS is 300. – And Rhino is hardly competitively viable. This is why Thunder needs an LMG damage buff to 12 (145 DPS) or 13 (157 DPS).

4. His Concussion is just hands down worse than Fragger’s frag. There are a number of reasons why:

a) A successful concussion relies on Thunder not flashing himself. If he looks at the Concussion go off at any distance, he is 100% blinded for the full 4 seconds that the direct-hit concussion would take place. Therefore, he must always concuss around corners and can never do so in the open.

b) Concussed enemies are not fully flashed and can easily still see you. As such, you can never concuss an enemy pointing right at you, because he will simply continue firing. Thunder is so large, he’s bound to take a ton of damage.

c) The concussion radius is identical to Fragger’s Frag. This means that almost directly hitting someone with it ( a feat in and of itself because of a) and b) ) does not guarantee a kill for Thunder, whereas it always does with Fragger.

d) Partially or totally flashed enemies can still see their hitmarkers on you when they’re firing, ans simply use this to continue placing shots on Thunder’s massive hitbox.

e) Thunder’s concussions can hurt his teammates just as much as his enemies.

f) Disabling equipment is worse than outright destroying it (compared to Fragger’s frag.)

g) Concussing requires a follow up to get a kill. This means that if you concuss two enemies and not a third, the third is free to shoot you and probably even kill you before you can even get the two kills from your direct impact.

All of this together means that: Thunder can only ever concuss enemies that he sneaks up on (regardless of his massive size and loud footsteps), finds around a corner, are not so spread out that he can’t get all of them, and didn’t have the time to face him before being concussed. Talk about situational.

5. Despite his LMG having mediocre DPS, it also has massive bloom (Jumping with Thunder -> Missing 80% of shots. Not jumping with Thunder -> taking even more bullets) and the longest reload in the game.

6. The advantages Thunder has over other mercs barely exist, or are countered by far larger disadvantages. Compared with Fragger, slower movement speed and way larger hitbox is not a good trade for +10 health. Compared with Rhino, faster movement speed and more accuracy is not a good trade for -40 health, less than half DPS, and a very situational concussion. Compared to fragger’s frag, lower cooking time and the ability to stop it at any point with no cooldown is not a good trade for it being supremely situational, 100% blinding you if you look at it at any distance, not guaranteeing a kill, etc.

---

Here’s what I would do to turn Thunder into one of the best mercs in the game from the 2nd worst merc:

1. 12 damage per round LMG. (13 if his character hitbox is not reduced. If you’re going to get hit by everything, you should also punch harder yourself.)

2. Reduced hitbox, making it harder to hit Thunder by just a tiny bit.

3. 170 Health instead of 160. He’s so, so squishy. If you don’t believe me, play with him.

4. Large resistance to his own concussion flash. It’s laughable that it’s easier for a concussed enemy to shoot you than it is for you to return fire if you merely watched the enemy get concussed from 30-40 feet out. This also allows Thunder to flash enemies in the open, which makes the concussion just more generally useful.

5. Concussing enemies should disable them from firing or using abilities for the full time of the concussion. It’s nonsense that a concussed enemy can blind fire you to bits when Fragger would have just confirmed the kill to begin with. This can be balanced by removing the decreased sensitivity that currently makes up the majority of a concussion.

6. A concussed enemy should also be flashed. There’s no reason that you should be able to see clearly more quickly 2 feet away from the concussion than 20 feet away.

7. Within the small concussion radius, devices should be outright destroyed. If not, the general disable time should be far longer.

8. The concussion time should go up to 5 or even 6 seconds. A concuss only works in the range that a frag would kill or very seriously harm, so why shouldn’t Thunder’s concussion also spell almost-certain death? For balance, SD could increase the cook-time on the flash.

9. Concussions shouldn’t flash teammates in games with friendly-fire enabled.

[Eox]

[quote=“derpypenguinz19;116808”]How to fix concs:

1. Fix the damn bugs.
2. Decrease flash radius, add a flash XP popup on the bottom at the screen
3. Increase concussion effect radius by a little bit
4. Increase reliability, give Thunder partial flash resistance[/quote]

That’s a very good start. Since conc nades are not the divine punishments that frag grenades are, they need to have an upside, like a better range.

I tried the MK46 and it seemed really fine to me. Everything I was shooting at was melting. I did not got bothered by the spread too much : tap firing did the thing in most cases. A minor spread buff could be okay, but I would be very careful since MK46 seems to pack a huge DPS. referring to the spreadsheet made by @syku that think packs the whopping value of 145 DPS ! It’s insane !

Check by yourselves : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yYDiX77THpjA-hImu2eRLio-ayOvGnDEeorZgHAieVQ/edit#gid=490808091&vpid=A1

[watsyurdeal]

I think they should fix the bugs before balancing anything.

[Telzen]

[quote=“Eox;116988”][quote=“derpypenguinz19;116808”]How to fix concs:

1. Fix the damn bugs.
2. Decrease flash radius, add a flash XP popup on the bottom at the screen
3. Increase concussion effect radius by a little bit
4. Increase reliability, give Thunder partial flash resistance[/quote]

That’s a very good start. Since conc nades are not the divine punishments that frag grenades are, they need to have an upside, like a better range.

I tried the MK46 and it seemed really fine to me. Everything I was shooting at was melting. I did not got bothered by the spread too much : tap firing did the thing in most cases. A minor spread buff could be okay, but I would be very careful since MK46 seems to pack a huge DPS. referring to the spreadsheet made by @syku that think packs the whopping value of 145 DPS ! It’s insane !

Check by yourselves : https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1yYDiX77THpjA-hImu2eRLio-ayOvGnDEeorZgHAieVQ/edit#gid=490808091&vpid=A1

[/quote]

That has the MK46’s damage at 12 per bullet. So either that is wrong or the wiki is.

[_WAR_Larknok1]

The wiki is correct – the mk46 is only 11 dmg per round for a DPS of 133. This effectively makes it a less accurate higher bloom kek – on a merc that’s going to get hit by pretty much everything and is killed by many weapons in the same number of shots as Fragger is.

[GiantGiant]

This has probaby been said but didn’t want to read all previous posts
-Smaller flash radius
-XP for flashing enemies
-Do something with hitboxes because shooting with shootgun to Thunder is like shooting to goddamn barn, every pellets reach the target
-Give him more killing potential - Fragger potentially can clear room full of enemies with one nade, Thunder can still enter the room and kill some foes while they are flashed but in this time he can still be shot down so I think that concused enemies should not see where they are shoot from
-buff mk46 its spread when hip firing is ridiculous and when ADS muzzle flash covers half of the screen
-maybe better concussion radius

Thats all…
…for now

[titaniumCrouton]

I honestly think he is fine overall (Except his nades, they need work) but if yall wanna make my favorite merc OP…

I’m all for it