Would coms hack actually be such a bad thing in competitions?


(deems) #1

I’m expecting to get flamed to bejeezus for even asking this… but it occurred to me that coms-hack might add some variety to competitive play. IIRC, I’ve heard mattc0m and GreasedScotsman talking on BrinkTV about how useless the operative is… and how therefore no one ever plays it (unless its the objective class). But one of their most powerful ability has been disallowed. Would it really de-strategise the game to have it in?

Continuing with the ideology (mentioned elsewhere – I think the adrenaline thread) that Brink isn’t nor should it be the same as competitive games from the past…

Basically I’m just curious what people think…

Cheers…

Deems

ps - A big thank you to the team at BrinkTV btw. Your shoutcasts make good watching during my lunch breaks :slight_smile:


(Apoc) #2

I dont think its that powerful, especially in comp, it takes too long to do which means you either need to have an enemy that has pushed far out and away from his team, in which case fair enought but usually comp teams dont stray too far away from support. OR you have just cleared the entire room of the enemy team…now considering your an operative, there must be a hack obj needing doing, or there wouldnt be much point, so you would be wasting possible hacking time by doing it, which wouldnt happen.

The other classes advantages far outweigh the operatives even with comms hack, by a mile…what would make the operative useful in comp is if they allowed emp grenades.


(Yeti94) #3

The reason comms hack is banned is because of its use on defense not offense I think. The offense leave a lot more dieing bodies lying around and comms hack would let the defense see exactly where the next attack is coming from.

Though i think that would work much better in theory than practice and the effect doesn’t last that long.


(tangoliber) #4

Because you have to start the hack when the player is just mortally wounded, and before they actually die…and because it doesn’t last very long…I don’t think it would be very helpful in knowing where the next push is coming from.

Perhaps, if the offense could get an isolated kill before pushing, they could use it to know all of the defense’s locations. In the hands of a good team that can use the radar well, that might be very powerful.


(Decayed) #5

If the defense has an op, then they probably aren’t going to be doing any form of adren stacking/chaining.


(Efrath) #6

Well, I think most people are in agreement that the current ESL Brink restrictions are bollocks, if people discuss it enough, they’ll probably allow more the Operative abilities in the future, when “old” comp players have gotten over the fact that radar actually can be okay in comp. A lot of comp players are nice and helpful, don’t get me wrong on that. I really do encourage players to seek out the comp scene in games like TF2 and other games as most are usually quite friendly and happy to help (At least that’s my experience!)

But there’ll always be those that are like grumpy old men, constantly complaining about the new things they are not familiar with and can’t understand instantly and I’m fairly sure this mentality is one of the more major reasons for most of the bans (I mean, Gatling turret ban, really? I know the whole deal with defense having a big advantage and all but… Really?)


(Apoc) #7

[quote=Efrath;338854]

But there’ll always be those that are like grumpy old men, constantly complaining about the new things they are not familiar with and can’t understand instantly and I’m fairly sure this mentality is one of the more major reasons for most of the bans (I mean, Gatling turret ban, really? I know the whole deal with defense having a big advantage and all but… Really?)[/quote]

Without meaning to sound elitist its not that comp players dont understand new things, more that they understand more fully and can see these things being exploited especially by top players. Things like double mining seem balanced to someone playing pub, but in comp that means that 2 engis can ensure the attacking team cannot get in at the obj from any angle without at least one of they getting blown up


(Decayed) #8

Unless they have an op which can spot or even take out the mines without spotting them. Turrets can also be emp’d and hacked, but really, they’ve made the op so gimp it’s not ever worth playing. So yeah rather than force players to adapt, they just get rid of it all.

If you consider 2 full mines + turret that’s 3 pips gone right away. Now you can weapon buff, throw a couple kevlars, and you’ll be at 0. I can’t remember off hand how many pips you start out with, but I really don’t think it’s more than 5. Granted they will regen at a slow rate, but there are already disadvantages in place to limit a team going 2 engi and dropping 2 mines each. Plus you won’t be dropping 2 mines in quick succession anyway with cooldown.

I’m not saying it’s still not an overpowered strategy but in terms of understanding it “more fully,” I think that’s a bit of a cop out and it does come down to not wanting to adapt to the new games.

However, I think the 1 mines and 1 turret is fine. You’re not really removing anything in this case, just limiting, similar to limiting classes etc. Removing abilities completely sets a whole different tone and that’s what I believe requires a paradigm shift from the old school of thought.


(deems) #9

I think what’s odd is the speed at which these things were removed from comp play. It seems like the vanilla rules were hardly tried in a pro setting (although maybe this happened, just none of it was shoutcast anywhere?). Maybe they took place, but I didn’t see any brinktv casts of vanilla-rules competitive play.

I’d really be curious to see a pro game with vanilla rules. Just to see…is the game broken for pros with the vanilla ruleset?


(Apoc) #10

[quote=deems;339167]

I’d really be curious to see a pro game with vanilla rules. Just to see…is the game broken for pros with the vanilla ruleset?[/quote]

Gathers and matches before the esl config came out were done with no restrictions what so ever. Self revive and downed fire were very bad in comp, especially self revive and double mining means that on maps like aquarium, one eng standing at the platform mining it with 2 mines each time can hold that entrance pretty much by himself, and another engi can shut down a whole other entrance or just keep tabs on all of them, it was a minefest :frowning: no one likes mine fests.

I think its unfair for the offense who usually have the disadvantage as it is on these defensive favoured maps to have to get past 4 invisible mines every time they attack.

And bringing an operative to spot mines on non hacking objectives puts your team at more of a disadvantage.
5 man team would have to be:
at least one obj class,
2 medics,
one or 2 ops depending on if your team is pushing down one side or 2 at same time (no point having an op then splitting into 2 groups and the op goes a way with no mines and the other group hits all of them)
1 or 0 engis

Thus giving a buff disadvantage to the attackers who cant buff all their players with engi weapon buff and definately not kevlar. Whereas the defense who dont need an op or an obj class, can just roll say 2 med, 2 eng, 1 sold. Or 3 med, 2 eng, and keep everyone buffed to the teeth and put down turrets and mines in a defensively favoured map…


(BioSnark) #11

As I said in a previous operative thread, the operative is already a deadweight the attacking team (on hack objs) has to carry around because he’s an operative. However, he doesn’t just have worse abilities like vanilla, he has none. Doesn’t really help with setting times. The class should be made slightly less useless in comp and if/when the sdk comes out hacks may as well be changed to repair objectives to remove the class rather than just all its abilities.


(wolfnemesis75) #12

First, the rules committee should start by expanding the rules to include more of the game out of the box, rather than pairing it down so much. Then test it out in some competitive matches and allow teams to choose their preferred strategy rather than trying to dictate a vanilla playstyle. There are some creative gamers out there who will come up with unique approaches; and I think most of competition is about tactics and strategy. Open the game up and let players decide how matches should be played. Then, if a certain tactic results in negative impact to the point of breaking the game in a competitive sense, then make some adjustments. Operative should be made to have more of a role, otherwise a competitive match is just a portion of Brink, and not representative of the actual game as a whole. My two cents on all competitive rules currently.


(Decayed) #13

Personally I think every comp league should require one of each class, for these class based games.


(wolfnemesis75) #14

I agree. But man have I got flamed for suggesting it. :o
But its seemingly perfectly ok to remove abilities, lol.:rolleyes:


(its al bout security) #15

next thing to be banned by esl! ALL DLC!


(wolfnemesis75) #16

Quoted for truth!


(Kalbuth) #17

Did flamers actually read Apoc explanations on what happened when 2-mines was tested in comp pick-up games, or do you actually troll for the sake of it?
I was rather siding for the argument that 2 mines was bringing back operative as an important class, but Apoc explains clearly this favors an already favored defense team… this during actual tests…


(wolfnemesis75) #18

[QUOTE=Kalbuth;340597]Did flamers actually read Apoc explanations on what happened when 2-mines was tested in comp pick-up games, or do you actually troll for the sake of it?
I was rather siding for the argument that 2 mines was bringing back operative as an important class, but Apoc explains clearly this favors an already favored defense team… this during actual tests…[/QUOTE]

I think some of it is just how nerfed the Operative Class is. But down the road they may change or adjust rules based on how stuff goes in the competitive play. As it stands now, the tournament players approve of the current rules, and feel that it is the best way to play in a competitive setting.


(Efrath) #19

A top player in one game is quite likely to be rather bad in the beginning of a new game and setup. Even good aim gets a good thorn when any player plays comp in a brand new game, seeing as there’s different patterns, weapons and all. The ESL rules are a good example of this. I know of the upper hand that defense has and things like EMP grenade and other abilities that helps assisting defense more than it should of course makes complete sense.

But then we have these other bans… The silliest one would perhaps be the Gatling turret due to the fact that it’s fairly easy to counter. A grenade or alternate route is enough and there is quite plenty of alternate routes on most maps.

From what I can tell, EVERYONE currently use 3 medics, leaving only 2 spots left… And who the heck wants to pick operative when the rules basically ban everything in the Operatives arsenal, despite the fact that Comms hack did not break the game. I really doubt that the beacon skill is really much of a gamebreaker as well, both of these skills takes some time to do and only lasts for a brief moment.

And then we have Cortex bomb, I can understand the reason, but as I’ve stated in another thread, there are plenty of ways to deal with a cortex bomb and the fact that it doesn’t detonate for 3 seconds with a tiny blast radius means that it has to be timed.

I am really hoping that SD can develop more server rules to allow the Comp community to tinker more with settings, I’m mainly hoping for class restrictions. I think it could be interesting to see a class setup of 2 medics and 1 each of the other three classes! Oh, and let’s not forget a way of recording matches too of course… That’s a rather big problem at the moment.


(wolfnemesis75) #20

[QUOTE=Efrath;341322]A top player in one game is quite likely to be rather bad in the beginning of a new game and setup. Even good aim gets a good thorn when any player plays comp in a brand new game, seeing as there’s different patterns, weapons and all. The ESL rules are a good example of this. I know of the upper hand that defense has and things like EMP grenade and other abilities that helps assisting defense more than it should of course makes complete sense.

But then we have these other bans… The silliest one would perhaps be the Gatling turret due to the fact that it’s fairly easy to counter. A grenade or alternate route is enough and there is quite plenty of alternate routes on most maps.

From what I can tell, EVERYONE currently use 3 medics, leaving only 2 spots left… And who the heck wants to pick operative when the rules basically ban everything in the Operatives arsenal, despite the fact that Comms hack did not break the game. I really doubt that the beacon skill is really much of a gamebreaker as well, both of these skills takes some time to do and only lasts for a brief moment.

And then we have Cortex bomb, I can understand the reason, but as I’ve stated in another thread, there are plenty of ways to deal with a cortex bomb and the fact that it doesn’t detonate for 3 seconds with a tiny blast radius means that it has to be timed.

I am really hoping that SD can develop more server rules to allow the Comp community to tinker more with settings, I’m mainly hoping for class restrictions. I think it could be interesting to see a class setup of 2 medics and 1 each of the other three classes! Oh, and let’s not forget a way of recording matches too of course… That’s a rather big problem at the moment.[/QUOTE]

I also suggested the Forced Class List in another thread. I think the ESL rules are trying to create a standardized way of setting up comp, but are focusing on abilities rather than other ways of doing it like the Class System itself.

Again, I am by no means an expert, I play on console so am outside looking in, but still play the game and have played nearly 70 hours in Freeplay in all modes and 40 hours of Campaign. I agree with an approach that sets up the team classes. Perhaps there is an optional slot, but the rest should be a format. Rather than limit the number of turrets and mines, limit the number of Engineers or multiple Class choices. It’d make more sense that way to have 4 slots that are locked in Class then an optional class choice. So you could have any combination of 4 Class+(Any Class).

I just watched the 6v6 Final on Brink TV which showed some growing pains with the teams and how they approach Brink.

Buffs were discussed in the telecast. I’d add that by having command post buffs involved in the game, it decreases the camping near the Objective mentality: As a defense you could still camp near the obj as a viable strategy, but you would run the risk of losing valuable strategic elements which would add to the strategy and balance.

In Brink the fight is not just about the Primary Objective but the Command Posts act as Territory/CTF elements that give bonuses. The command posts also divert the attention of the defenders, divides their forces creating windows for the attackers to coordinate a strike and requires the defenders to make choices whether or not they want to risk preventing posts from being captured. You’d get more 1v1 struggles at the posts as well which would add some excitement and skill feel.

By gaining the posts it also tips a bit of the balance into the hands of the attackers. Over all this would help speed up the matches so that you weren’t getting such long holds on the first obj. It is Stopwatch after all. Such changes would add an element of X-factor (among other abilities like Operatives) that would reduce the defensive campy tactics that Brink seems to devolve into in the Brink Tv comp matches. Just trying to be constructive.