Working with the idea of "Ultimates" and additional abilities...

[PixelTwitch]

I remember watching all the interviews from PAX back before I got access to Dirty Bomb and imagining a great game with lots of depth and complexity. Understandably I was very disappointed when I actually did game access to the game when I found out that many of the great ideas spoke about at PAX had been cut from the design. I still think there are some aspects that can be saved/resurrected from what was said last year and I am going to attempt to go though EVERY SINGLE MERC and explain what I would personally change and add to make the feeling of depth more pronounced.

PROXY
Role Ability - Ability to slightly buff Mines, Turrets and MG Nests / Repair MG Nests.
Personal Ability - Ability to defuse C4 from a range of around 10 feet with clear line of sight.

RHINO
Role Ability - 125% heal rate / revive health.
Personal Ability * - Ability to harden skin to receive 50% less damage for 5 seconds.

PHOENIX
Role Ability - NA - Self Revive
Personal Ability * - Ranged revive (50hp) in a cone in front.
Healing Wave - 25hp damage over 3 seconds for enemies caught in it.

BUSHWHACKER
Role Ability - Ability to slightly buff Mines, Turrets and MG Nests / Repair MG Nests.
Personal Ability * - Place a 300hp MG nest

STOKER
Role Ability - Can pass though fire and gas without taking damage.
Personal Ability * - Fire Ammo 80% damage + 30% burn over 3 seconds

THUNDER
Role Ability - 50% quicker C4 Defuse + 25% less explosive damage.
Personal Ability - Concussion nades deactivate electronics for 3 seconds

REDEYE
Role Ability - Captures forward spawns 20% faster (any hack objective)
Personal Ability * - Reduce recoil for 7 seconds by 70% (IS only)

SKYHAMMER
Role Ability - NA
Personal Ability - NA
Airstrike - The target nade explodes like a cluster bomb when under cover.

ARTY
Role Ability - NA
Personal Ability * - IPAD targeting for 3 individuate arty strikes
Arty strike - Target designator now spots enemies in 3D after 1.5seconds for 3 seconds

AURA
Role Ability - Can carry the Healing Station
Personal Ability * - Overcharge the Healing station to 200% effectiveness for 3 seconds
Healing Station - Can change from Heal to Damage effect.

VASSELI
Role Ability - Rim light reduces after sustained period of no movement.
Personal Ability - Detonate Motion Sensor to reveal enemies in range in 3d for 3 Seconds.

NADER
Role Ability - Plants C4 50% faster.
Personal Ability - NA
Nade Launcher - Toggle between explode on contact and bounce.

FRAGGER
Role Ability - Plants C4 50% faster.
Personal Ability * - Cluster nade

FLETCHER
Role Ability - Ability to slightly buff Mines, Turrets and MG Nests / Repair MG Nests.
Personal Ability - Movement speed increased by 5%, health increased by 10% and +1 Jump

SAWBONES
Role Ability - Shooting incapped targets does +33% damage.
Personal Ability * - Adrenalin shot, Increases movement speed + damage resistance by 20% for 5 seconds.

Have fun raging about some of these <3 lol

Personal Abilities followed by the ‘*’ mean these are built up via XP (ultimates)

[spookify]

The more abilities the longer the TTK should be…

In the Above Stocker would be amazballz but super OP… 2 HS kill haha if that hahahaha!

I like the idea of more abilities.

[tokamak]

Proxy:

• Mines trigger in a 10 yard radius. They lift up and fly directly towards the trigger.

Rhino

• Rhino becomes immobile and all his hits have a mild concussive effect

Phoenix:

• Revives the entire team

Stoker
-Can run through his own fire, catch the fire and immolate every opponent nearby

Thunder

• Concussion nade explodes in a cluster of tiny concussive bombs exploding at slightly different moments.

Redeye

• Identifies players passively.

Skyhammer

• White phosphorus shells immolate every opponent in the vicinity.

Arty

• Pixel’s susggestion is cool here

Aura

• Healing station has a protective force field (like QW) that halves the damage of every bullet that passes through it.

Vasseli

• Players caught by the sensor remain targeted

Nader

• Launches all six grenades at the same time

Fragger

• Agreed, cluster nades, bouncing clusters everywhere!

Fletcher

• Explosives explode on proximity

Sawbones

• Adrenaline shot indeed, but I feel that SD may want to save this one for a new merc entirely.

[INF3RN0]

And soon we will all be stuffing our Christmas stockers… #spook

I do love most of these ideas though. These are what I’d consider good examples of the passives and possibly even the ‘ultimates’ we’ve discussed in the past. Mercs need to be truly unique and this is the way to do it.

[INF3RN0]

Some repeats/adds…

Sawbones=> Adrenaline Shot (all action/movement speeds increased by 150%/max hp boost +25 for 8s)
Aura=> Overflow (floods HP station giving instant 80 hp to all in radius)
Phoenix=> Healing Wave (forward traveling healing wave)
Sparks=> Lazarus Grenade (aoe revive)

Fragger=> Rampage (Sprint shooting at no spread penalty for 8s)
Thunder=> Shockwave (Stomps ground sending out a shockwave (similar style to phoenix) AoE slow forward and increasing stun duration on afflicted enemies)
Rhino=> Harden (200% bs/150%hs damage reduction from frontal damage for 8s, rear damage is 2x as vulnerable)
Nader=> Cluster Bomb (The next 6 grenades break into 4 smaller grenades after exploding that deal 50% less damage)

Skyhammer=> Skyhammer (‘Skyhammer missle’ large AoE blast, but significant delay after calling in the strike and global notification. Target location is only visible when calling in the strike)
Arty=>Artillery Barrage (arty marks up to 2 target locations on the map via PDA, global notification)
Stoker=> Napalm (marks a long gas path, which can be ignited by the moltov. Napalm will spread from one enemy to another when in close proximity. Additional damage dealt by stoker increases burn duration.)

Proxy=> Sonic Mine field (2 extra mines which cause a large AoE slow and deal minor damage)
Bushwhacker=> Repair Drones (repair turrets, performs obj actions at slower rates, 2 limited HP drones can be deployed)
Fletcher=> RC (small remote controlled vehicle which produces a large AoE flash bomb effect with medium damage at close range)

Vasilli=> Espionage (prevents all enemy abilities from being used for 5s, does not apply to actives)
Redeye=> Poison Gas (similar to molotov, but also blurs vision/causes a predictable vertical bounce)
Aimee=> EMP Grenade (medium AoE that prevents abilities from being used for 10s)

[Alchemy]

No please, I played ‘comp’ firefall, and when utls came out it the game took a big step back. it’s too hard to balance and isn’t fun for anyone other then the person using the ult.

[INF3RN0]

No please, I played ‘comp’ firefall, and when utls came out it the game took a big step back. it’s too hard to balance and isn’t fun for anyone other then the person using the ult.

Is this firefall? No. Nuff said.

[prophett]

Can’t say i’m excited about the possibility of Rhino going ape-sh it for 8s (or any length of time for that matter).

[Alchemy]

I promise you that if ults are introduced into this game, comp gameplay will dilute into farming and saving till ults are up on 3-5 of your team for one death push for the atking team and saving your ults on defense for said death push to counter it. Really boring, and stalemate-y and looks silly for spectators watching.

[INF3RN0]

The concept here is asymmetrical balance. The issue people have with Rhino’s MG applies to almost every other part of the game (arty, grenade launcher, mines, turrets, radar, etc). Ultimately these won’t win games, but they make for interesting strategy and play experiences. The goal here is to eliminate repetition and compliment the skill with interesting mechanics and meta. Yes, some of the stuff we have is too literal and does not compliment the core skill set. Aiming is easy to time and hard to execute, while abilities/strategy is easy to execute but hard to time. A combination of these two variables is what makes for both a competitive, fun, and non-repetitive game in my opinion.

When I think of “Ultimates” I think of an ability that will probably always be effective in the short term, but will not always have value in the long term. What these would do is open a few moments in a game where unique potential strategy becomes possible, but is entirely dependent on timed execution and coordination- ultimately dependent on follow up from the core skill set. Otherwise they essentially amount to nothing. Just imagine a perfect imbalance of abilities like these that have a ton of potential for situational big plays, but can only be used a few times during a game. I’m thinking 2x for defenders and 3x for attackers during a standard 15min game, where these become available at set times of the game. Something like at 3mins and 10mins for defenders, and 4mins, 8mins, 12mins for attackers. I’d also allow these to be saved and used at any time, but having at least a 1min cooldown between uses if say you decided to save all your ults until the end.

An ex. scenario using my listed ideas:
Team A has an unbreakable defense at a choke point. Team B leads in with Nader’s cluster bomb ult softening up the camp. Thunder follows up with a concussion grenade and shockwave ult, and the rest of his team follows up with fire support. Team B responds with Sparks getting a quick AoE revive with a lazarus grenade ult and Aura activating here overflow ult to get everyone healthy again in quick succession. Then everything pans out as normal.

If you think of it like this then it seems perfectly balanced, though how a situation will pan out is entirely dependent on strategy, timing, and execution. Imagine this type of situation happening 2-3 times every game and all of the possible combinations and you end up with something that could be really awesome to both play and watch as a spectator. In the end everything comes down to raw skill, but the game derives most of its excitement from an interesting meta.

[INF3RN0]

If I were to make a “my dream patch notes” thread like the rest of you… it would include this feature as well as the others that I posted in this thread. What I want is a skill based core, with a highly strategical team oriented meta. I want every merc to play in a highly unique way with some obvious overlap amongst archetypes, and the overall concepts being quite easy to grasp and simply varying things to break it up. The overall goal here is to eliminate repetition.

-A moderate amount of unique movement maneuvers varied amongst mercs by numbers (speed, distance, chaining, combos, etc)
-A basic counter ability system between all 5 archetypes
-An Ultimates system
-Special grenades as a default item
-Merc synergy potential
-Archetype specific side-objs

That’s my ideal meta for DB. Aside from balanced skill based weaponry, good map layouts, etc. And to be extra clear here, this is simply what I think would bring out the best in this game specifically, rather than what I look for in a game in general.

[PixelTwitch]

I promise you that if ults are introduced into this game, comp gameplay will dilute into farming and saving till ults are up on 3-5 of your team for one death push for the atking team and saving your ults on defense for said death push to counter it. Really boring, and stalemate-y and looks silly for spectators watching.

Well the reason for the “ultimates” being within speech marks is because its only ultimate in concept of how you get it…
Its basically just a skill rewarded ability. Infact, many (most) of the ones listed have less impact then the default abilities.

Basically… The word ultimate was used due to the lack of a better word

[tokamak]

Nobody has yet established how exactly these ultimates would be obtained. You could make them entirely unfarmable if that’s an issue.

So as long as that’s not decided yet I think we should attempt to imagine the most interesting and awesome abilities possible. Currently most of these are merely more powerful versions of the original ability. We need to go deeper.

[Alchemy]

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;510486]Well the reason for the “ultimates” being within speech marks is because its only ultimate in concept of how you get it…
Its basically just a skill rewarded ability. Infact, many (most) of the ones listed have less impact then the default abilities.

Basically… The word ultimate was used due to the lack of a better word[/QUOTE]

Even if these ultimates are gain due to “skill”, whether that be kills, exp, dmg done, power ups, the result would be the same. Save them till you have 3 or more up, to break what ever defense the other team has. In my own exp of arcade FPS with ults you play slower at the start to gain what ever timer or bar for your ult so you don’t lose it or feed what ever messure is used to gain them to the other team, till you have most of them up and do a wave of ults to break it and gain ground. It’s super passive, play for picks and don’t die till ults are up, use them and hopefully gain ground, fail or not you still do it again.

As for infr3rno’s dream plan of ults that counter utls -

"An ex. scenario using my listed ideas:
Team A has an unbreakable defense at a choke point. Team B leads in with Nader’s cluster bomb ult softening up the camp. Thunder follows up with a concussion grenade and shockwave ult, and the rest of his team follows up with fire support. Team B responds with Sparks getting a quick AoE revive with a lazarus grenade ult and Aura activating here overflow ult to get everyone healthy again in quick succession. Then everything pans out as normal. "

In the end, it’s a stalemate. Nothing changes, both teams drop their utls but no one actually gains ground. So what is the point? To have you merc feel powerful to kill a group of enemy’s that get mass rez’d in 2 secs?

DB has a ton of skills already in the game that feel ult like, airstrikes, ion canons, smoke nade(super unrated btw), etc etc.

Imo, I think the 5th thing inf3nro said is what the devs should be working on - Merc synergy. Having the merc’s and their augs/cards compliment one other would further add to the depth and strategy of teamplay aswell as add a layer to team building via mercs and their card selections.

[INF3RN0]

In a perfect world it’s a stalemate and that’s exactly what it should be. In reality no one is ever playing perfect every time, which is why it won’t be a stalemate most of the time. The same thing applies to weaponry as well and anything that uses asymmetrical balance. Plus the reality of counter picks in a draft mode makes it even more interesting, where in you could develop an endless number of strategies and counter strategies.

[Alchemy]

In this gametype of OvD, I really don’t think it should be a stalemate, atkers should have a small % adv or the matches would be really boring. I also would like this game to come down more to aiming and movement mechanics then pressing Q W E R like in dota, but that’s IMO.

[PixelTwitch]

Obviously your views are being tainted by a pretty bad experience in FireFall.

Just realise that out of ALL the current playable Mercs that I listed only 2 of them have a truly offensive personal ability…
Them being Rhino and Fragger… If you want to be super fussy you could also include Sawbones and Phoenix I suppose…

However, with Phoenix the idea of a long distance revive is already in the game with Sparks…

You also need to remember that this is NOT FireFall…
I played an awful lot of PVP FireFall with Epsilon and Team Dignitas and know exactly what you mean with the Bio Tech ultimate. However Dirty Bomb is not all about simple pushes and avoiding combat like FireFall was. The very fact that the game is time based reduces the need and willingness to wait to build up an ultimate before pushing in…

Also, like you mentioned, Airstrikes and Ion beams are pretty much like ultimates anyway and its rarely you see people waiting for an airstrike in public before pushing out… Also not a single ability I suggested has anywhere near the power of an Airstrike or Ion beam.

anyway… you are totally entitled to your opinion.

The problem with a game coming down to aiming and movement is that its dull…
Most importantly however, its already done better by many other games.

[INF3RN0]

In this gametype of OvD, I really don’t think it should be a stalemate, atkers should have a small % adv or the matches would be really boring. I also would like this game to come down more to aiming and movement mechanics then pressing Q W E R like in dota, but that’s IMO.

Aiming and teamwork would be the most valuable assets to have, not moving away from that at all. You just can’t have a game based purely on aim skill or what not because then there’s absolutely no depth to the game play. CS, Quake, ET, etc all had more depth to the game play than just aiming and other raw skill based mechanics, in fact most games do. The class/ability part of DB should simply be a catalyst for the core skill set in order to make it more interesting, not replacing that skill set with QWER.

My views on ‘ultimates’ are not OP auto-damage abilities, they are simply enough of a situational nudge to make a good play into a great play. You have to realize that I’m all about a high skill oriented game, but I’m not entertained by an overly simple match of a single raw skill like aim. There’s a big difference between being a skilled aimer and being a skilled player. A combination of raw skill and mastery of a meta is where I want the bar set.

[Alchemy]

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;510539]Obviously your views are being tainted by a pretty bad experience in FireFall.

Just realise that out of ALL the current playable Mercs that I listed only 2 of them have a truly offensive personal ability…
Them being Rhino and Fragger… If you want to be super fussy you could also include Sawbones and Phoenix I suppose…

However, with Phoenix the idea of a long distance revive is already in the game with Sparks…

You also need to remember that this is NOT FireFall…
I played an awful lot of PVP FireFall with Epsilon and Team Dignitas and know exactly what you mean with the Bio Tech ultimate. However Dirty Bomb is not all about simple pushes and avoiding combat like FireFall was. The very fact that the game is time based reduces the need and willingness to wait to build up an ultimate before pushing in…

Also, like you mentioned, Airstrikes and Ion beams are pretty much like ultimates anyway and its rarely you see people waiting for an airstrike in public before pushing out… Also not a single ability I suggested has anywhere near the power of an Airstrike or Ion beam.

anyway… you are totally entitled to your opinion.

The problem with a game coming down to aiming and movement is that its dull…
Most importantly however, its already done better by many other games.[/QUOTE]

So your plan was to take away most of the offensive abilities? Or add on? Also, looking at most of the abilities you wanted to add/switch while I’ll leave competitive balanced out , in terms of whats fun to use it’s really uneven. Compare proxy, bushwhacker’s, and thunder’s new abilities to something like fraggers, rhino’s and stoker, the later seem like it would be rather visceral and feel like it has a great affect in fights, while the former is super meta gamey , very situational, and passive.

As for AS/ion not being saved, that’s because no real teams practice or scrim. Anything going on in pubs or even pug (considering the current player count) is really low level play and very little teamwork. That said, I myself have seen times when the defending team holds their AS and nades for when the UV is repaired or coming to a choke, I know I save it for when the UV is coming or is abt to finish repairing.

It’s not just firefall btw, i also played the woefully bad attempt of a tribes game by "hi"rez which was also a f2p FPS, with ults (killstreaks) that also wasn’t very good. Titanfall also had some abilities that granted burst of OP, and having kills lower the titan CD created games where you held on to the CD till you had good number of your team with it ready to call down all at once to go for the death push.

And why are you playing a FPS if you think the core gameplay aiming and movement is dull? dota 2 is a great game full of really strong spells that are rather balanced around other really strong spells. But even that game has core mechanic of last hitting and denying which is #1 skill needed for your 1 hardcarry and #2mid core roles.

I think you are trying to create a meta game for a game that isn’t ready for one. Game has to be fun and visceral, with good core FPS fundamentals first, then we can worry abt adding the spice of spells and abilities to build upon.

[Alchemy]

[QUOTE=INF3RN0;510540]Aiming and teamwork would be the most valuable assets to have, not moving away from that at all. You just can’t have a game based purely on aim skill or what not because then there’s absolutely no depth to the game play. CS, Quake, ET, etc all had more depth to the game play than just aiming and other raw skill based mechanics, in fact most games do. The class/ability part of DB should simply be a catalyst for the core skill set in order to make it more interesting, not replacing that skill set with QWER.

My views on ‘ultimates’ are not OP auto-damage abilities, they are simply enough of a situational nudge to make a good play into a great play. You have to realize that I’m all about a high skill oriented game, but I’m not entertained by an overly simple match of a single raw skill like aim. There’s a big difference between being a skilled aimer and being a skilled player. A combination of raw skill and mastery of a meta is where I want the bar set.[/QUOTE]

quake is the king of aim and movement FPS, ofc within that are the powerup timings, mind games, map knowledge, but core game play is shooting him and moving so he doesn’t shoot you.

And you can’t just premake a meta. The skill bar isn’t set by the meta it’s merely a result of it, the highest tier of gameplay mechanics, and tbh players trying to break the game to gain the adv. That’s how meta is made, not by devs but by the players in game finding new ways to get an adv.