Why the Points System is Flawed ( and suggested Fix)

(Orthias) #1

Please consider the following scenarios, which make up 90% of my games so far. Please keep in mind that i am NOT talking about competitive clans here, but casual multi-player (which keeps any game afloat commercially)

Attacking

[ol]
[li] on attack, my casual team-mates do a charge, then get pushed the hell back to spawn.
[/li][li] at this point most of them will be medics.
[/li][li] they all bunch up at the first choke, while the enemy team suppresses and snipes them
[/li][li] and heal each-other, and revive each-other.
[/li][li] When supplies end, they die, only to be revived a few seconds later with a FULL supply meter, to go re-join the medic-party.
[/li][li] I and the occasional (rare) other player go to complete the main objective, but the medics don’t help of course, they’re too busy with their medic party.
[/li][li] i’m left to face most of the enemy team alone and unable to ever complete the objective.
[/li][li] we lose the match
[/li][li] [B]THEY EACH GET FROM 7K to 10k XP while i can barely get 2-3K, even when i sometimes manage to miraculously complete an objective ninja-style. They even get more points the the top enemy players who did not complete any secondary objectives because they were too busy owning my team
[/li][/ol]

Defense

[ol]
[li] my noobie team bunches up near the big yellow objective, to get constant points from defending it. They do what the game tells them they should do.
[/li][li] that makes them sitting ducks (at worst), or campers (at best)
[/li][li] when i try to go out and hold a few key positions/routes (i.e. guarding the shortcut around the gate on container city) i get zero objectve points because i’m too far from the main objective, and i only get XP from kills, which is low.
[/li][li] i also get very few points from buffing / helping other people because they’re mostly parked near the main objective
[/li][li] i can’t play anything other than soldier because i will run out of ammo every time (all my team are medics & engineers), and anyway they wouldn’t want to leave the safe, XP-giving location of the main objective to go re-supply me and risk dieing in the process.
[/li][li] i’m again left alone against most of the enemy team, which eventually kills me (i do make mistakes too), and rushes the point to slit the throats of my half-asleep team.
[/li][li] i get most of the kills and the lowest XP (or among the lowest) from my team.
[/li][/ol]

Core of the poblem:
The XP system:

[ol]
[li]on attack: rewards people who don’t even try to complete objectives, and are effectively responsible for losing the match (while penalizing those who do try)
[/li][li]on defense: punishes people who engage in tactically sound gameplay, because they are not acting like bots and bunching up near the objectives.
[/li][/ol]

I feel this is nothing short of bad game design, stemming mainly from the lack of proper objectives. The command posts are sad excuses for objectives since they mainly distract from the main objective instead of working to complete it.
The health boost and supply boost is insignificant for casual players, and if people can’t work together for one objective, what made the devs think they’ll be able to do it for 2 or 3 different ones?

my proposed solutions would be:

  1. [li]on defense: add another type of objective, for any class: “Defend key point” (named off the top of my head)
    [/li][ul]
    [li] These objectives would point the player to the nearest position of tactical importance, which also has the fewest players guarding it (these positions would be pre-set for each different map - just ask any pro player that’s spent any significant play time on the maps and he’ll tell you)
    [/li][li] They would be rewarded as long as they hang around in that area to defend it
    [/li][li] Diminishing returns would be in effect, so the rewards would decrease the more people are defending that spot.
    [/li][li] if there are more than one people on the spot, if one of them selects “Defend key point” objective again on the wheel, it would point them to the nearest point that has less people defending it.
    [/li][/ul].
    [li]on attack (this is harder to fix, but this is the best i’ve got so far):
    [/li][ul]
    [li] make the XP from healing scale in accordance to amount healed. Currently they get 75 XP for each heal, regardless of amount healed.
    [/li][li] add diminishing returns in for spamming the same ability over and over in the course of a few minutes. If people stop getting huge XP from medic parties they will switch to another class and actually contribute to the game.
    [/li][li] we could have the equivalent of “Defend key position” for the attackers, which would be “capture key position” described above, and would work the same way.
    [/li][/ul].

I think my suggestions, if implemented, would actually serve to educate both casual people (and score junkies coming from other games) in the art of true objective-based team multiplayer, just as single-player servers to educate in regards to weapons and game mechanics.

(Miken420) #2

Yeah maybe since this game is 8v8, they should implement a limit to how many can be one class.

That way people who insist on ONLY playing Medic will leave the server in search of another and open up a slot for someone who might want to play more dynamically.

(Shadowcat) #3

This wasn’t the thread i expected it to be :rolleyes:

You have some interesting ideas but I’m not so sure that there are all that big of issues with the system. Yes, for new players who are literally only playing to get the most experience, they arent very effective. But a new player is never going to be effective, at least now they are near the objective and/or working together.

The system as it is now acts like training wheels, it offers exp for doing the roughly right thing and its up to the player to use the skills learned to develop beyond that when they realize exp doesn’t matter.

The EXP obsession should last long enough for them to see the merits of buffing teammates at the right time over mindlessly killing, and of guarding the objective instead of wandering around.

(Orthias) #4

I think these are core problems mylself. TF2 has them as well, and never fixed them because it was unable, it did not have the possibilities that are open to Brink.

Countless TF2 pub matches i’ve played would have been horrible for me because of lack of teamplay, if i didn’t have my K/D there for comfort. And that is why TF2 fails to be a true objective based game.

Brink can do it though, it’s so close i can smell it. :slight_smile:

(tokamak) #5

The supply replenish at respawn vs the supply regeneration while staying alive does tend to be a problem at time. If say, handing out a buff to someone speeds up your regeneration by 200% for the next two pips you’ve got a new way to generate your own supplies while the people who keep the pips for selfish enterprises will be left scraping the bottom.

(sh0otM3) #6

more reward points for killing people. solves the problem.

(Shadowcat) #7

Yeah, as a medic, i occasionally use all my pips then rush in to harass. If i manage to hinder the other team, thats unexpected but welcome; if i die, i get another 6-8 pips at respawn.

The fact that intentionally dying can be an advantage seems a bit off. Hate to say this because it would stop me from using buffs as often, but it could be solved if your supply pool was unaffected by dying.

(Orthias) #8

sorry but it doesn’t, it just provide more incentive to NOT care about the objectives. People will settle for being the best in the losing team, and that’s been proven so many times by so many games.

(Orthias) #9

[QUOTE=Shadowcat;313786]Yeah, as a medic, i occasionally use all my pips then rush in to harass. If i manage to hinder the other team, thats unexpected but welcome; if i die, i get another 6-8 pips at respawn.

The fact that intentionally dying can be an advantage seems a bit off. Hate to say this because it would stop me from using buffs as often, but it could be solved if your supply pool was unaffected by dying.[/QUOTE]

yes kamikaze tactics are another big pain, but i figured my post was long enough already.

What i think would maybe work is having the amount of supply restored be directly proportional with the time survived. For example:

  • if you die the first time you get your supplies back in full.
  • if you die a second time after 1 minute from the 1st death, you don’t get anything back
  • but if you survive for 2 minutes you get half of it back
  • if you survive for 3 minutes you get it all back.

these times are random examples, of course it would need to be tested to see what exactly works best, and the restored would be incrementally proportional to time survived.

(Rubbaduren) #10

I agree with that. What about making the losing team get less XP, in such a way, that even if you did very well, you wouldnt get an amount of XP you would be happy with?

The problem is that this could end up really punishing players new to the game. Especcialy after the game has been out for å while. Would force them to play the objective though!.. Pros and cons…

(crazyfoolish) #11

[QUOTE=Shadowcat;313763]This wasn’t the thread i expected it to be :rolleyes:

You have some interesting ideas but I’m not so sure that there are all that big of issues with the system. Yes, for new players who are literally only playing to get the most experience, they arent very effective. But a new player is never going to be effective, at least now they are near the objective and/or working together.

The system as it is now acts like training wheels, it offers exp for doing the roughly right thing and its up to the player to use the skills learned to develop beyond that when they realize exp doesn’t matter.

The EXP obsession should last long enough for them to see the merits of buffing teammates at the right time over mindlessly killing, and of guarding the objective instead of wandering around.[/QUOTE]

Good points.

I have a system that could be interesting for kill as i feel that not enough emphasis has been placed on the in the XP department.

100 points for a kill
+20 if you kill near a team mate
+30 if you kill near an objective or tactical location
-10 if you kill in a part of the map that is not important

Also more xp for completion of primary objectives.

I feel that something like this would be good.

In the end though i play to win the game. Not to earn XP. Their should be a “winners bonus” added to the final scoreboard of say, 20%.

(dazman76) #12

Interesting idea crazyfoolish, I like it :slight_smile:

(pikasecks) #13

I think if you accomplish a key objective it should just award you much much more points. Like delivery the datakey/briefcase whatever +1000.

Also remove the level cap at 20. there doesnt need to be more unlocks, just give people a cumulative xp history.

I feel like the game as it is right now is just a buff-fest. get as many supply pips as you can buff everything and anything, die, repeat, in rapid succession.

(felismenari) #14

As a soldier who’s team ability gives exp based on how much I gave a teammate, it only seems fair that a medic’s heal is treated the same way. IMO, it should give a certain static amount for buffing a teammate’s life if they don’t have the buff already, and then another amount that scales with how much health that has been healed. And I agree with ya about defending objectives. In order to gain the defender exp. bonus, I have to glue my ass to it. Yet when I move to a good vantage point for repelling attackers, I get no bonus. Doesn’t make any sense.

(Hyraltia) #15

[QUOTE=Miken420;313762]Yeah maybe since this game is 8v8, they should implement a limit to how many can be one class.

That way people who insist on ONLY playing Medic will leave the server in search of another and open up a slot for someone who might want to play more dynamically.[/QUOTE]

Problem with this is that most people are spec’d for 2 different classes per character they make, for me, my main is medic and operative, meaning im PRETTY much bottle-necked into those two classes if i want to be useful/effective against the enemy team (since most of them will play their main classes and have full skill points vs my none if i don’t use mine), my alt char is soldier/engi, granted i switch between my chars based on my mood and how i feel like playing, but either way, I can only do so much effectively.

All of the above is why i think the skill pointing stuff is kinda…blah for a class based game, don’t get me wrong, i enjoy the skills and such but it leaves you very limited in usefulness when a map gets picked that you don’t have a spec into.

And as to the killing exp thing, no, kill exp is fine where it is, if you get objective points and kills at the same time you get a significant bonus, random kills off the objectives should barely count for anything (as is right now). Like I’ve said in other threads, you boost kill exp or start tracking KDR, you create lone wolf retards who just wanna boost their stats/get easy exp and end up providing NOTHING useful to the team.

(shango1963) #16

Very good points, but I think matches will come down to creating/linking with a good fireteam. Remember, this is a team based game set to engage players in cooperative gameplay. I can’t emphasize this enough because right now, as we’re still engaging the learning curve, most matches are just now starting to see more player population.

Remember, also. that SD has purposely deemphazied Kill xp in favor of “objective” based xp to discourage lone wolfing. To ramp that up would ruin the structure of the game, essentially making it “COD: THE ARK.”

As noted in this thread, the missions as played with/against bots can be viewed as (extended) training in a sense. Once player based Fireteams deploy, we’ll start to experience the real tactical glory of this game.

(fearlessfox) #17

Sorry, but this assertion that some parts of the map are unimportant is plain wrong.

Every single area can be used for something important: flanking, sneaking to a specific location, setting up a turret to mark a safe zone for regrouping, etc… it depends on the flow of the battle, and being penalized for killing someone whilst moving through a designated “unimportant” area en route to an objective should not cause minus score.

Plus, most of these “fixes” would overcomplicate.

(kamikazee) #18

If they don’t care about tactics, no changes to the points system will change anything.

While it might be unfair that they earn multiples of your XP score, the fact remains that XP actually doesn’t matter that much…

(Steinernein) #19

I don’t get it. Since when do you not get a metric ton of **** all XP points for doing tactically sound things?

If you’re trying to farm points you’ll end up doing the objective regardless because you get more for winning, furthermore, by flanking them and by taking secondary objectives (which cannot be easily ignored ) you gain metric ton of points. It’s pretty easy to be competitive with classes such as operatives in casual games by doing a mix of primary and secondary objectives.

The same applies for defense.

(Orthias) #20

[QUOTE=Steinernein;314037]I don’t get it. Since when do you not get a metric ton of **** all XP points for doing tactically sound things?

If you’re trying to farm points you’ll end up doing the objective regardless because you get more for winning, furthermore, by flanking them and by taking secondary objectives (which cannot be easily ignored ) you gain metric ton of points. It’s pretty easy to be competitive with classes such as operatives in casual games by doing a mix of primary and secondary objectives.

The same applies for defense.[/QUOTE]

Is it tactically sound to camp 30 feet from your own respawn point with 6 medics, circle-healing/reviving each other? Will that win you any matches?
Well guess what, you get metric tons of XP for that. And that’s what new players tend to do, be it because they don’t know any better or because they farm XP to level. In both cases, it makes for a very nasty match. And in my experience, it happens often.

Now if I’m the 7th or 8th player in that team, and i try to go an plant / hack/ whatever, what do you think i’ll manage to do alone against the whole enemy team? I might attempt the most tactically sound moves imaginable, but that won’t grant me any XP, cause i won’t succeed, an i can’t change the status quo of the match, and i cannot win.
The only sane options for me are to join the medic orgy, or leave the server. not a very good palette of choices there, no?