Why Ranked is unpopular, and how we can make it popular

[bgyoshi]

[quote=“Terminal_6;155896”]So I’ll start with why less than 10 (an estimate) of my 424 hours of this game are in ranked matches.

First off, I don’t have a team or friends who play DB, I did have some who played at the beginning of open beta, and I did my first comp matches with them. I’m kind of a social outlier, so going into comp with no one I know wasn’t very enticing, and I pubstomped for months. I would like to be better at DB, and ranked is probably the way to go, but it doesn’t offer a lot of tangible feedback out of the box. You really have to invest in it to determine your own relative skill and how you can improve.

I have no doubt that the more I play, the better chance I’ll have of a truly informative match that can show me the “errors of my pubstomping ways.” But I have to wonder if its worth slogging through the rest of it.[/quote]

A sentiment I can reflect and one I’ve heard all too often from my friends that play. On the less frequent occasion that we DO play together at the same time, none of us want to play 5v5, because we all equally agree that 5v5 is just…less. Less viable strategies, less flexible, less intuitive, less game, and just less FUN than ALL of the casual formats.

[B_Montiel]

What amazes me in ranked in this game is that people are still not understanding some basic “meta” which exists currently in the ranked 5vs5 game format like :

• 1 engineer is always enough, as well as 2 well chosen medics (depending on attack/def) is absolutely needed
• Recons are only situational with the imperative prerequisite of being absolutely god with them, otherwise you just turn the game into a 4vs5
• Unless being clearly identified as the combat dude of the team with both nader and fragger in your merc selection, not having 2 support classes in your pool (no matter support/medic/engineer) is a mistake
• COMMUNICATE YOUR CLASS CHANGE SO TEAMMATES CAN ADAPT
  (list goes on…)

So, in my opinion, ranked is bad for both people applying this kind of rules and people who don’t.
People who don’t mostly get crushed because they don’t have any synergy with their team, and the poor people who apply them are extinguishing fires everywhere, and generally get mad.

[fubar1]

You guys. Always the same with you.

You really want to know whats “wrong” with ranked?
… You. All of you. The majority of players in this game are beyond garbage, but somehow for some unknown reason possess the ego of a triple Superbowl winning star athlete. It’s always the teammate’s fault, it’s always the opponent’s stacking, it’s always the algorithm being shit, it’s always unbalanced games. Not once, ever, in this game or any other game (LoL, Dota, CSGO, OW) have I ever heard a guy go “well, those guys were legitimately better than me and deserved to win”, there’s always some or another bullshit idiotic excuse people have got stuck up in their heads.

Got no medic? Guess what, ADAPT. Go play medic. Oh, your team is lacking engineers? Well, you have a fancy little button that just might magically turn you into one. This ridiculous amount of whining going on in this forum and reddit ever since ranked first went up in March is beyond retarded.

tl;dr: git gud.

[bontsa]

Issues with ranked and reaction to it, in my opinion, fall down mostly on the expectations towards it. How can anyone in their senses think a mode where randoms are put to fight against each other, is full-blown competitive in any sense? It is and should be thought of as more of a introduction to competitive setting, hence it is called ranked instead of comp. Things become different once / if / when 5premades can be put against another 5premades, only in that setting tho.

No experience of plays that cobalt/elite ranked peeps have with each other now (if ever put against each other), but I feel the plays golds/silvers I’ve seen around, it’s more of a glorified pub. Which isn’t exactly a bad thing, it allows people to take one step from pub chaos towards little more controlled enviroment with 5v5, the player amount most maps seem to be balanced on, and with mechanics like FF and collision. Next step is to hop in pugs / scrims and so forth, get into next tourney around etc.

And ye, the class composition and people not sticking to their class roles is what most ranked games seem to be falling down on. That again seems both player mindset issue (like @fubar and @B.Montiel pointed out) and introduction error from developer side. Proper tutorial (I keep bringing this up, it ain’t silver bullet but hell would it help if made good and then mandatory), heck even having some indicator in lobbies what mercenary fits in what class role (large icons for Medic/Firesupport/Engi/Assault/Recon next to merc or something) could point oblivious people towards the realization of stuff like “Hey, everyone in this team seems to be having this SniperScope iconed Vassili/Redeye/Phantom guy in squad, and none of us have Medic, maybe I should switch”. High hopes but can’t be confirmed to work or not to work until tried really?

Nevertheless, theres stuff players themselves can do and what dev can do to push peeps in right direction. Now most of the forums seem to be demanding latter before doing anything in terms of the first.

[neverplayseriou]

@fubar now now newb relax :p, you should stop by Lightning his stream again and see the salt of frey and lightning and their opinions about their teammates xD

[FUNNYBLACKMAN]

[quote=“fubar;155919”]You guys. Always the same with you.

You really want to know whats “wrong” with ranked?
… You. All of you. The majority of players in this game are beyond garbage, but somehow for some unknown reason possess the ego of a triple Superbowl winning star athlete. It’s always the teammate’s fault, it’s always the opponent’s stacking, it’s always the algorithm being shit, it’s always unbalanced games. Not once, ever, in this game or any other game (LoL, Dota, CSGO, OW) have I ever heard a guy go “well, those guys were legitimately better than me and deserved to win”, there’s always some or another bullshit idiotic excuse people have got stuck up in their heads.

Got no medic? Guess what, ADAPT. Go play medic. Oh, your team is lacking engineers? Well, you have a fancy little button that just might magically turn you into one. This ridiculous amount of whining going on in this forum and reddit ever since ranked first went up in March is beyond retarded.

tl;dr: git gud.[/quote]

I do agree that people need to get good.There should be a change in the mentality of the casual Dirty Bomb player.But I disagree that its not the teammates fault.People who have played quite a while jump into ranked and get balanced with the morons while the other team gets filled with people also not that good, but who work together.Thats the same shit that happens in pubs.
Every change that Splash Damage is trying to make to ranked is both good and bad(Like the solo and duo-queue).
I can go more in depth on how to change the player’s mentality but I would have to type quite a bit and not many people will understand it.

[bgyoshi]

[quote=“fubar;155919”]t’s always the teammate’s fault, it’s always the opponent’s stacking, it’s always the algorithm being shit, it’s always unbalanced games.

Got no medic? Guess what, ADAPT. Go play medic. Oh, your team is lacking engineers? Well, you have a fancy little button that just might magically turn you into one.[/quote]

[quote=“B. Montiel;155917”]What amazes me in ranked in this game is that people are still not understanding some basic “meta” which exists currently in the ranked 5vs5 game format like :

• 1 engineer is always enough, as well as 2 well chosen medics (depending on attack/def) is absolutely needed
• Recons are only situational with the imperative prerequisite of being absolutely god with them, otherwise you just turn the game into a 4vs5
• Unless being clearly identified as the combat dude of the team with both nader and fragger in your merc selection, not having 2 support classes in your pool (no matter support/medic/engineer) is a mistake
• COMMUNICATE YOUR CLASS CHANGE SO TEAMMATES CAN ADAPT
  (list goes on…)[/quote]

This bullet list are things I figured out within the first week of play. These aren’t only applicable to 5v5 . My loadout always includes a medic and an engineer, and then something for missions or whatever I want to do for fun.

The issue that needs to be tackled with the current competitive DB isn’t just player mentality; the current casual player mentality, on a team, won’t get you out of bronze or silver in the current ranked ladder OR the ranked ladder I’m proposing.

Issues with ranked and reaction to it, in my opinion, fall down mostly on the expectations towards it. How can anyone in their senses think a mode where randoms are put to fight against each other, is full-blown competitive in any sense? It is and should be thought of as more of a introduction to competitive setting, hence it is called ranked instead of comp. Things become different once / if / when 5premades can be put against another 5premades, only in that setting tho.

This. This is the real issue. The ‘competitive’ 5v5 format is TOO competitive for a casual player. The only players that will wade through the garbage and continue to play ranked are ONLY the players that want to dedicate 3/4/5/6 hours a day to Dirty Bomb. Since this is a massive minority of players in ANY game, Ranked absolutely has to change to better reflect what it SHOULD be: A way for casual players to continue to play 1 - 2 hours every few days and slowly learn how to transition between casual and strict 5v5 formats. There’s currently no middle ground. It’s 100% casual to 100% tournament. That transition will never, in a million years, be popular.

[bontsa]

[quote=“B. Montiel;155917”]What amazes me in ranked in this game is that people are still not understanding some basic “meta” which exists currently in the ranked 5vs5 game format like :

• 1 engineer is always enough, as well as 2 well chosen medics (depending on attack/def) is absolutely needed
• Recons are only situational with the imperative prerequisite of being absolutely god with them, otherwise you just turn the game into a 4vs5
• Unless being clearly identified as the combat dude of the team with both nader and fragger in your merc selection, not having 2 support classes in your pool (no matter support/medic/engineer) is a mistake
• COMMUNICATE YOUR CLASS CHANGE SO TEAMMATES CAN ADAPT
  (list goes on…)[/quote]

This bullet list are things I figured out within the first week of play. These aren’t only applicable to 5v5 . My loadout always includes a medic and an engineer, and then something for missions or whatever I want to do for fun.

Well, congratulations for this being the case for you. To be honest though, sadly there are large portions of DB players around there who haven’t got the foggiest of these. Or are just too eccentric or whatever to care. Heck I’ve been asked by multiple level 10’s, or gotten confused reaction, about the fact that Bushwhacker is an Engieer. Either game does something horribly wrong in introducing the classes, or players are simply way too lazy to look into it.

[quote=“bontsa;155927”]Issues with ranked and reaction to it, in my opinion, fall down mostly on the expectations towards it. How can anyone in their senses think a mode where randoms are put to fight against each other, is full-blown competitive in any sense? It is and should be thought of as more of a introduction to competitive setting, hence it is called ranked instead of comp. Things become different once / if / when 5premades can be put against another 5premades, only in that setting tho.

This. This is the real issue. The ‘competitive’ 5v5 format is TOO competitive for a casual player. The only players that will wade through the garbage and continue to play ranked are ONLY the players that want to dedicate 3/4/5/6 hours a day to Dirty Bomb. Since this is a massive minority of players in ANY game, Ranked absolutely has to change to better reflect what it SHOULD be: A way for casual players to continue to play 1 - 2 hours every few days and slowly learn how to transition between casual and strict 5v5 formats. There’s currently no middle ground. It’s 100% casual to 100% tournament. That transition will never, in a million years, be popular.[/quote]

I have to reply to this right off the bat as this wasn’t at all what I ment with my statement. From public 6v6-8v8 enviroment it IS good to hop into 5v5 and introduce new mechanics like FF, possibly later on even mercenary restrictions. Ranked is exactly for that. Ranked is the middle-ground you long for in your post. Issue is that some people, very vocal population, think that is straight up competitive and should be treated as something of tournament level. Or least it seems to judging from the “increase level requirement to 20”, “ban vassili’s from ranked” and all kind of juicy ragey threads. I also feel arguments towards old system being better, where 5premades were able to stomp solo/duo/trios, spawn from this mentality (I don’t deny having 5premade vs 5premade being good option though, so calm your pitchforks fellas).

[RedBeard]

[quote=“srswizard;155644”]How to fix ranked, by Dr. S. Wizzle:

Remove bugs (unlikely) Sadly I agree…
Remove cheaters (easier said than done)
Offer real rewards based on ranking at the end of the season, but let people know in advance
Increase level requirement
Improve matchmaking
Introduce leaderboards
Advertise the game
Don’t do stupid patches based on steam forums feedback[/quote]

This First THEN Balance changes; You would think this would be obvious.

[bgyoshi]

From public 6v6-8v8 enviroment it IS good to hop into 5v5 and introduce new mechanics like FF, possibly later on even mercenary restrictions. Ranked is exactly for that. Ranked is the middle-ground you long for in your post.

I’ll have to entirely disagree with that. I wouldn’t have made this thread if it was! As I’ve said above, the viable team strategies in 6v6 are exponentially higher than the viable team strategies in 5v5. 5v5 is a bare-bones, extremely limited scope of play. You can be very well adjusted to 6v6, only play 6v6, and notice that 5v5 is a 100% different atmosphere. I’d hardly call the transition smooth middle ground. It’s like trying to say that 6v6 in TF2 is a perfect transition from Highlander 9v9. They’re really just that different.

THEN, on top of that night/day difference, casual players are expected to ALSO suddenly know how to handle collision and Friendly Fire?

[kibloy]

[quote=“fubar;155919”]You guys. Always the same with you.

You really want to know whats “wrong” with ranked?
… You. All of you. The majority of players in this game are beyond garbage, but somehow for some unknown reason possess the ego of a triple Superbowl winning star athlete. It’s always the teammate’s fault, it’s always the opponent’s stacking, it’s always the algorithm being shit, it’s always unbalanced games. Not once, ever, in this game or any other game (LoL, Dota, CSGO, OW) have I ever heard a guy go “well, those guys were legitimately better than me and deserved to win”, there’s always some or another bullshit idiotic excuse people have got stuck up in their heads.

Got no medic? Guess what, ADAPT. Go play medic. Oh, your team is lacking engineers? Well, you have a fancy little button that just might magically turn you into one. This ridiculous amount of whining going on in this forum and reddit ever since ranked first went up in March is beyond retarded.

tl;dr: git gud.[/quote]
The ‘competitive’ aspect is not what attracts most players in ranked. They want balanced games, but none of the competition. It’s just as bad as in casual, where someone starts spamming shuffle votes as soon as they see a hint of a loss.

[Naonna]

It’s rare for me to give my two cents on the topic of competitive: personally, given how bad I am at the game, I don’t want to drag down others’ scores. - Thus it’s rare for me to EVER play this mode. (I play Fletcher well, and am working on red-eye’s sniping. Otherwise, I’m bad.)

Not to say I don’t do well in pub play: I’m aware, however, that 7v7’s are very different than organized 5v5’s. I do well as Fletcher in a pub, but know Bushwacker is advised for competitive thanks to his aoe defensive abilities. Why play competitive when I can’t be efficient with a merc I’m half-decent with. Because enemies move as a group rather than apart, there’s no real way to prep for competitive via pubbing: Fletcher does great in a pub: not so much when there are teammates he has to keep safe.

People who enjoy mercs such as Redeye, Phantom, or Pheonix won’t have many options to play these mercs without teammates questioning their choice and getting mad. The meta is there for a reason: it works. Most deviations get flack.

I understand the appeal of competitive, but what’s the point if there’s no fun in the game?

As an earlier poster stated, it’s comparing pubs in tf2 to 6’s. if you’re using ANY off class, you might lose outright. Even when pyro had his brief uber-boost to the point of instantly killing people within flamethrower range, 6’s stayed with 2 scouts 2 solders 1 demo 1 medic. - Because that balance was the best.

9v9’s in tf2 allowed for each class to play its role: more of an organized pub game. By limiting each class to 1, Everyone was encouraged to play.

Sadly, this isn’t an option in dirty bomb. The competative 5v5 format is restricting to someone who enjoys unpopular mercs. Why choose phantom when his killing potential is less than even a sniper? (Keep in mind that unless someone is AMAZING with a sniper in dirty bomb, they may as well be a -1 for team numbers.) Right now, Fragger is required; as is sawbonez, bushwacker, and a second medic of choice. (Fragger isn’t limited to 1 in non-organized competitive play, either.)

Long story short:
Why play competitive when one will assume they’ll do poorly.
Why play competitive when your favorite mercs are seen as terrible or worse than alternatives?

p.s. If people hate having to deal with a lv 70 ruining their pub game, how would it feel to eventually be put on a team with/against 4 of them? Anyone new is likely to dread that scenario: even if it’s rather unlikely. Being forced to endure a steamroll in competitive is draining.
(Sorry for the disorganized post: in the future, I’ll try to organize my thoughts better.)

[Jostabeere]

[quote=“FUNNYBLACKMAN;155938”][quote=“fubar;155919”]You guys. Always the same with you.

You really want to know whats “wrong” with ranked?
… You. All of you. The majority of players in this game are beyond garbage, but somehow for some unknown reason possess the ego of a triple Superbowl winning star athlete. It’s always the teammate’s fault, it’s always the opponent’s stacking, it’s always the algorithm being shit, it’s always unbalanced games. Not once, ever, in this game or any other game (LoL, Dota, CSGO, OW) have I ever heard a guy go “well, those guys were legitimately better than me and deserved to win”, there’s always some or another bullshit idiotic excuse people have got stuck up in their heads.

Got no medic? Guess what, ADAPT. Go play medic. Oh, your team is lacking engineers? Well, you have a fancy little button that just might magically turn you into one. This ridiculous amount of whining going on in this forum and reddit ever since ranked first went up in March is beyond retarded.

tl;dr: git gud.[/quote]

I do agree that people need to get good.There should be a change in the mentality of the casual Dirty Bomb player.But I disagree that its not the teammates fault.People who have played quite a while jump into ranked and get balanced with the morons while the other team gets filled with people also not that good, but who work together.Thats the same shit that happens in pubs.
Every change that Splash Damage is trying to make to ranked is both good and bad(Like the solo and duo-queue).
I can go more in depth on how to change the player’s mentality but I would have to type quite a bit and not many people will understand it.[/quote]

His argument, even though is somewhat right, since people need to be somewhat good for comp, is just blatantly pulled out of his nose.
And I think it’s based on the fact he is such a good player that he solo destroy weak/low-medium-level teams.
@fubar Please answer honestly. You ever faced a team of 5 enemies on your skill-level, alone, with a team of people who bought Engies without knowing how to defuse, multiple bad Vassilis and no medics? If yes, and you probably lost such a game, you totally thought it was okay for such a MM-descision? And that you need to git gud even more?

[TheVulpesFox]

Stop worrying about other people is my suggestion. Just lighten up. So maybe your teammates aren’t as good as you, maybe they are having a bad day or are trying something new e.g. equipment. Or something could be malfunctioning (my middle mouse button sometimes doesn’t work and really throws me off. Getting new one soon).
It’s only a game and if you have a problem with the way someone is playing, kindly suggest to them something they could improve on.

[Naonna]

Usually, that turns into “Why the hell are you using (fill in blank with any non-standard lineup merc)” - Win or loss, they’ll blame you for not fitting a role.

[Kingsley]

[quote=“FUNNYBLACKMAN;155938”][quote=“fubar;155919”]You guys. Always the same with you.

You really want to know whats “wrong” with ranked?
… You. All of you. The majority of players in this game are beyond garbage, but somehow for some unknown reason possess the ego of a triple Superbowl winning star athlete. It’s always the teammate’s fault, it’s always the opponent’s stacking, it’s always the algorithm being shit, it’s always unbalanced games. Not once, ever, in this game or any other game (LoL, Dota, CSGO, OW) have I ever heard a guy go “well, those guys were legitimately better than me and deserved to win”, there’s always some or another bullshit idiotic excuse people have got stuck up in their heads.

Got no medic? Guess what, ADAPT. Go play medic. Oh, your team is lacking engineers? Well, you have a fancy little button that just might magically turn you into one. This ridiculous amount of whining going on in this forum and reddit ever since ranked first went up in March is beyond retarded.

tl;dr: git gud.[/quote]

I do agree that people need to get good.There should be a change in the mentality of the casual Dirty Bomb player.But I disagree that its not the teammates fault.People who have played quite a while jump into ranked and get balanced with the morons while the other team gets filled with people also not that good, but who work together.Thats the same shit that happens in pubs.
Every change that Splash Damage is trying to make to ranked is both good and bad(Like the solo and duo-queue).
I can go more in depth on how to change the player’s mentality but I would have to type quite a bit and not many people will understand it.[/quote]

People are finally catching on that this community is a garbage landfill of bad players that want to change this game in their own special way, don’t have the slightest capacity/vision to analyze SD decisions, and instead cry about challenges that most players in other games would appreciate and love.

Instead of focusing your energy on whining, how about, i don’t know, look for circumventing solutions. This game is WAYYYYYYYYY greater than what I read on these forums. It’s always

“IT CAN BE BETTER JUST WITH MY OWN SHTTY IDEA, HEAR ME OUT GUYS”

Goddamnit, shut up. It’s so bad, almost every thread. No appreciation, if you ever find some its only by a select few players and guess what they all are considerably good players in this game. SURPRISE.

[Kingsley]

With or without me saying it
People are noticing how bad it stinks here
You can continue flagging me for abuse, as an adult an all. The next chance you get take your time looking yourself in the mirror.
You complain about this game more than you spend time enjoying it.
Whens the last time you shed positive light with this game.
You probably have more posts in these forums advocating for some bs change than minutes in the game. That’s more of a cancer than my NJ potty mouth that’s offending grown men.

[Jostabeere]

@Kingsley Ask you nicely to remove the abuse since I don’t abuse any rules. Won’t do it? Good, you know what happens then.
And because you seem not to get it. You get flags for abusing the fules.
You insult people in your posts.
You call peoples ideas “shitty ideas” because you don’t like them. You call people “motherfucka”, and even if it’s a stupid meme, it’s an insult. Therefor get flagged.
And instead of rethinking your behavior and why you got 18 flags, all you do if putting revenge flags on posts, that don’t break the rules.

[Sinee]

[Merci1ess]