Why Phantom was/is frustrating to deal with


(watsyurdeal) #1

So, something that I don’t think is ever really discussed here, is how truly frustrating Phantom was to deal with as a player. So let me enlighten you a little.

The Armor allowed Phantom to soak up to 60-80 damage before his actual health would start to drain, on top of that, with being as Tanky as Thunder at the very least, he also has decent speed to add on to it. Plus the cloak, while it is easy to see, you don’t react quite as fast as you would with a normal player, and that really changes depending on how good or how long you’ve been playing Dirty Bomb.

So with all that in mind, you have a guy running at you with a melee weapon that you can’t kill, if he’s already that close, he’s likely going to get you, even if it’s just one kill before the Phantom dies, being that one player is just immensely frustrating.

In my honest opinion, this is why we had such a massive dip in player population, nobody wanted to deal with this merc, and he’s just one of the many frustrating ones to counter. Rhino, Aura, Proxy, and so on, I think if we’re going to get that audience back, we really need to address the issues of counter play. Is it fun to fight a specific merc? Is using that merc consistent and effective? Does it have an equal amount of skill in, power out, or is it off balanced?

We need to really talk about this stuff, we can’t just ignore it anymore.

Phantom was just one of the main frustrations for new players, there are many more, but let’s discuss what to do with him first.

  1. How do we make him as effective, or more effective at his role.
  2. While also improving how fun or lowering the frustrations in dealing with him?

(JJMAJR) #2

1 - Advertise DB to highly competitive gaming circles.
2 - Use the “SCRUBS” trailer, or make a better SCRUBS trailer that explains how annoying stuff would be a thing that could actually be countered by intelligence and vigilance.
3 - Get a fanbase that would not complain about Proxy mines, Phantom, or Rhino.
4 - Then, start getting a fanbase that would know exactly how to rebalance Proxy, Phantom, and Rhino so that they would be more competent.
5 - Done. No need to go about and make those mercs less frustrating.


(watsyurdeal) #3

Even if you advertise it to competitive players they will still likely complain about something that lacks counter play.

No matter the skill level, players like to feel like they are in control as much as possible, this includes things like less random spread, less instant kill deaths, etc.

There’s a lot of room for improvement on both ends, but saying we’ll just get another audience for it, it’s not going to change anything. Keep in mind we’re all that’s left and we play this game a lot, the stuff we find annoying, the competitive players likely will too.


(JJMAJR) #4

Counterplay to Phantom: See him, shoot him.
Proxy: Shoot the mines.
Kira: Run away from laser.
Rhino: Shoot face or use grenade.
Rhino+Aura: Stoker.
Aura: Use grenade.
Random Spread: Tap Fire.
Bushwhacker: Hear turret, then exploit its poor AI.
Fletcher: Dodge grenades.
Arty: Use ears.
Skyhammer: Use ears.
Sawbonez: Kill him.
Phoenix: Finish him.
Sparks: Finish everyone off.
Nader: Dodge grenades, shoot face, don’t come close.

Anything else you want to complain about?


(watsyurdeal) #5

Congrats, you completely missed my point.

It wasn’t that there wasn’t a way to deal with certain things, the point is, is there a way we could reduce frustrations, while at the same time increasing how effective and reliable various abilities are.

You know, fine tune the game so everything plays better, even at a higher level of play, while also not frustrating new players coming in.


(TheStrangerous) #6

The many times mentioned fix: spotting ability.

I’d like to add, that in order to stand out from HB sensor, Snitch and IR Vision, allow this ability to also mark enemy deployables, much like Bomb Squad Augment does, but this time it could mark them through walls.

In other words: Turn him into walking radar, and give up on stealth aspect completely.

If SD wanted Refractive Armor more stealthier, they would’ve done this long time ago. There seems to be a reason why they do not want Phantom to be completely invisible.

My 2 cents.


(JJMAJR) #7

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;199480”]Congrats, you completely missed my point.

It wasn’t that there wasn’t a way to deal with certain things, the point is, is there a way we could reduce frustrations, while at the same time increasing how effective and reliable various abilities are.

You know, fine tune the game so everything plays better, even at a higher level of play, while also not frustrating new players coming in. [/quote]

I did not miss your point, it’s just that your point just came from a very long list of very bad points.

-Defusing Proxy mines.
-Trying to get every weapon to have predictable spread, thus making the M4A1 meaningless.
-Now, trying to make Phantom into something which players would be able to counter more easily, and from the above two points I would predict that said “counterplay” would make the point of his character meaningless.

Not only that, you also let on the idea that you want to nerf Rhino so that he would be unplayable due to the fact that he’s already extremely easy to counter.

You want new players to have an easy ride at the expense of competitive play, while also saying that it’s going to benefit competitive play. I am kind of sick of this shady crap and would like to express that fact to your face.

At least I don’t go around and spam disagrees without stating why like @AnotherGuy does.


(watsyurdeal) #8

[quote=“JJMAJR;199485”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;199480”]Congrats, you completely missed my point.

It wasn’t that there wasn’t a way to deal with certain things, the point is, is there a way we could reduce frustrations, while at the same time increasing how effective and reliable various abilities are.

You know, fine tune the game so everything plays better, even at a higher level of play, while also not frustrating new players coming in. [/quote]

I did not miss your point, it’s just that your point just came from a very long list of very bad points.

-Defusing Proxy mines.
-Trying to get every weapon to have predictable spread, thus making the M4A1 meaningless.
-Now, trying to make Phantom into something which players would be able to counter more easily, and from the above two points I would predict that said “counterplay” would make the point of his character meaningless.

Not only that, you also let on the idea that you want to nerf Rhino so that he would be unplayable due to the fact that he’s already extremely easy to counter.

You want new players to have an easy ride at the expense of competitive play, while also saying that it’s going to benefit competitive play. I am kind of sick of this shady crap and would like to express that fact to your face.

At least I don’t go around and spam disagrees without stating why like @AnotherGuy does.[/quote]

Defusing Proxy Mines wouldn’t make them useless, infact if you run around a corner carelessly you would still be killed by them, so they would still serve their primary function, it would just be easier to deal with and punish them for being too exposed, or someone is playing correctly, and is taking their time or predicting where mines might be and dealing with them accordingly.

Predictable spread, and predictable recoil, are not the same thing. Predictable spread means the bullets will always go in the same direction, which is not what I am after, what I am after, is where firing the gun forces your crosshair in certain, predictable direction, instead of random, you know, so you can compensate for it, spread should be compensated for by firing in bursts, rather than spraying and hoping for the best. So if it kicks up to the right, you know to pull down to the left, and control your firing to gentle taps to tame to keep your bullets firing straight.

And I did not even suggest any changes to Rhino or Phantom, yet you assume I want to make them useless. Guess what, in higher level of play, they already are useless, assuming a team is properly coordinating to either focus fire on Rhino, or spot Phantom and relay his position to their allies, then they are effectively countered.

But, both of those assume team work, which is not often always the case in public play, since everyone seems content to play their way rather than work together. So the problems with those mercs are basically a double edged sword, they are useless in higher level play, but frustrating outside of it, because of what it requires to deal with them.

Phantom could EASILY be changed to be a more effective stealth merc, an ability that basically behaves like the cloak from BF2142

Where basically, you equip it like it’s a separate weapon from your pistol or rifle, and use it, so you can not attack while cloaked. This means we could buff Phantom’s visibility to hide him completely, 100% invisible, even while he is sprinting, after all, if he can’t attack while cloaked, he is not unfair to fight or deal with. He basically becomes more useful in competitve play as a harasser and master flanker, while also becoming less frustrating in public play to new players, since they don’t feel like they die randomly to some merc.

Rhino, could have some changes done to his minigun, such as limiting his movements, no sprinting or jumping with the minigun out, this would allow us to buff said minigun to be more reliable in higher level play with controlled bursts being able to reach out and hit people. And then, it also forces Rhino players to use their primary more, and prevent scenarios where Rhinos just pop out and start firing at people. Rhino should be an effective area denial merc, not an offensive one.

You seem to be under the impression that I want to make the game worse for competitive play, but I don’t. I want there to be a meta with more options, more variety, while also increasing the possible skill floor and skill ceiling needed to play the game, and reduce as much frustration as possible.

I fail to see how these changes would make competitive worse than it is now, as it’s being basically abandoned by Splash for casual matchmaking instead.


(Eox) #9

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;31894”]So, something that I don’t think is ever really discussed here, is how truly frustrating Phantom was to deal with as a player. So let me enlighten you a little.

The Armor allowed Phantom to soak up to 60-80 damage before his actual health would start to drain, on top of that, with being as Tanky as Thunder at the very least, he also has decent speed to add on to it. Plus the cloak, while it is easy to see, you don’t react quite as fast as you would with a normal player, and that really changes depending on how good or how long you’ve been playing Dirty Bomb.

So with all that in mind, you have a guy running at you with a melee weapon that you can’t kill, if he’s already that close, he’s likely going to get you, even if it’s just one kill before the Phantom dies, being that one player is just immensely frustrating.[/quote]

You pretty much nailed it. Though he wasn’t only a frustration for new players : he was a frustration for most of the player base. Even players who were more experienced could fall for it : after all, the merc was brand new. Anyway, I always considered Phantom’s armor mechanic to be his main issue from the start. Not being able to damage something rushing at you with a big stick just feels wrong and frustrating.

Frustration in DB and most of FPS usually comes from one feeling : you died from something and you couldn’t do anything about it. This is why characters or weapons that removes control from your character or one hit kills are oftenly hated. Attacks that feels unavoidable in any way are also a source of frustration. Small exemple : when I play as Stoker, I sometimes get verbally abused by players for scoring kills with the molotov. While I don’t consider Stoker as overpowered, I can see why the guy in front of me got frustrated by it : evading a molotov directly thrown at your feet is not the easiest task in the game.

Frustrating mechanics are indeed a part of DB’s current issues. However, Phantom is not the only merc who has or used to have such issues. Right now Phantom is considered easly counterable and one of the worst mercs available (if not outright the worst), though being flanked by a Phantom loving too much is katana is still annoying to experience. My point is, there’s much more important things to consider than Phantom right now when it’s about dealing with frustrating mechanics for new players, like shotguns (considered useless at high level, but considered absurdly overpowered by most of newbies starting to play DB).

Now going back to Phantom only. Since Phantom main reason why he used to be so frustrating was the shield mechanic on the refractive armor, better getting rid of it in my opinion. To compensate, just make it so being damaged while being invisible won’t reduce his invisibility anymore. After that, we can work on that base to tune his invisibility even more until it gets acceptable (making him slightly less visible, tweaking CD… There’s a lot of modifications we can do).

While I am at it : being able to disable deployables is cool and does not seem to frustrate players a lot, but it’s probably not implemented in a nice way right now. A lot of people suggested to split the EMP effect and the Invisibility effect : starting with this could be nice.


(UndeddJester) #10

@Watsurdeal

Its an interesting idea the cloak being 100%, but having to be equipped to work. It is probably one of the better ones for making Phantom more enjoyable to both play as and play against.

Since the cloak is the most prominent thing about the character, it should be the main part of his kit, but of course as with invisibility in most games, balance is a real knife edge.

1 thing that does strike me with this idea however, is DB is MUCH faster paced compared to BF (as far as I know, never played BF 2142). The need to swap weapon is a pretty big deal in terms of finding/making use of your window of oppurtunity. That does lend an element of skill knowing when, and most importantly when not to go on Phantom.


So a few things I want to clarify with this suggestion: -

1 - EMP or Spot?
This will be the primary one, as this shapes his whole usage of the new improved cloak. I personally prefer the EMP idea (with tweaks) primarily because I don’t really think any spot he could have would compete with Vasilli, or even Aimee/Redeye for crying out loud. To mark someone without letting them know is a HUGE, and potentially game breaking deal, but not doing so reveals Phantoms presense nearby, killing any suprise potential he has.

I personally like the idea of the EMP more. In my opinion people are tagging Recon too tightly with spotting. Reconnaissance means military observation of a region to locate an enemy or ascertain strategic features. His cloak allows him to recon for himself (if implemented in the way you describe), the EMP allows him to act strongly off of that recon, more so than the other recons of the team.

I feel a pulse of similar size to his current aura, on a decent cooldown would be good. Stacking deployables close together gives Phantom a lot of power, but spreading them out means he has to pick and choose. Not having an EMP however would mean a bush turret or aura station would more often than not totally stuff his attack. It also separates him quite nicely from the identity as jsut another spotter who lacks any real hard hitting weaponry.

2 - How will the zero visiblity cloak work?
a) Is there a cooldown?
b) Would his cloak offer any armour?
c) Would damage reveal him, similar to the TF2 spy?
d) Any noise from his cloak?
e) HB Sensors and proxy mines?

Personally I vote:
a) No - On or off at will allows him to really harass and run, the fact he has to swap weapon severely limits the broken power this could offer
b) No - Primarily due to the first point. Dodging and moving in odd patterns saves you, nothing more.
c) Yes/No - Hit marker/blood may be enough. If need be perhaps the silhouette he has now when running for literally 0.1 of a second.
d) Yes - Slightly louder than now, for Phantom this helps create paranoia in the enemy by ghosting past people, but also serves the astute as a warning against crouching katana hidden phantom. Although if he has his outline show when damage, I’m less keen for the noise to be increased.
e) HBS would be a hard counter, totally killing anything Phantom could do so immunity would make sense to me. Being 100% invisible with no CD gives him time to look around more than other mercs. I see no reason to disable proxy mines against him.

3 - Same HP and stats?
I think with the change of cloak mechanic, his HP and speed become fine as is.


(Naonna) #11

@FatalJ has an interesting idea. I’ll leave it at that. I’m not agreeing or disagreeing.

@Watsyurdeal Seriously, with this? You just blamed Phantom on the early loss of players?
You just made me agree with @JJMAJR AND @Eox - People with very differing views about some major aspects of this game.

To address your questions:

Is it fun to fight a specific merc? Yes. Similar to fighting a spy in tf2, you are required to stay close to teammate and use your ears. While some may call this ‘paranoia’ in my opinion, it adds a new element to the game.

Is using that merc consistent and effective? - Effective in what? What is the purpose of Phantom at this time? That’s what I feel is the major issue with him. - Not his disable ability which makes auras or proxy mains cry: not even his 1-shot potential at melee range against squishy mercs. There is currently nothing Phantom excels at or is focused on. One could argue he only exists to damage deployable users, but pre-patch, he still had the same issue. - Even more so, since he can’t throw the EMP in the way Thunder’s flash bang was used - encouraging a close-range play style which fails at higher levels, or even against coordinated teams.
The invisibility, if one wants to even call it that, doesn’t work when moving. How is one expected to get close to a team’s deployables unless it’s through a wall?

Does it have an equal amount of skill in - power out? No. Counter play is NOT required to have that sort of balance.
At this point, phantom’s skill in to power out ratio is not favorable. It takes a LOT of skill to get anything done as Phantom when using a Sawbonez or Phoenix could achieve about as much, with better sustain within combat and team support. Sneaking is a joke if one isn’t crouch walking - and even then, escape after engagement is very tough if more than two people notice, given that sprinting isn’t an option.

@EOX
I 100-percent agree on removing the very-temporary bonus HP from Phantom’s armor, at this point. It was initially meant for countersniping to absorb 1 headshot. Now, it serves only as a method to allow him the first shot within a 1v1 firefight - be it by bullet or, for some players, a sword stab. This leads to frustration, understandably.

Despite this, some players RELY on the armor specifically because its stealth is lackluster. It’s impossible to run away with its current visibility - leading to the armor portion being required to make it even slightly viable.

I have no real problem with the EMP as it is, outside of the forced minimum cooldown it left his armor with. It serves as a secondary warning for deployable users, but coupling this with his loud armor noise and footsteps seems a bit overkill. - I suppose the noise is to prevent melee-phantoms from being useful. (Although, at that point, why make all his gen 2 load outs the cricket bat or katana?)


(TheStrangerous) #12

[quote=“FatalJ;199507”]@Watsurdeal

1 - EMP or Spot?
This will be the primary one, as this shapes his whole usage of the new improved cloak. I personally prefer the EMP idea (with tweaks) primarily because I don’t really think any spot he could have would compete with Vasilli, or even Aimee/Redeye for crying out loud. To mark someone without letting them know is a HUGE, and potentially game breaking deal, but not doing so reveals Phantoms presense nearby, killing any suprise potential he has.

I personally like the idea of the EMP more. In my opinion people are tagging Recon too tightly with spotting. Reconnaissance means military observation of a region to locate an enemy or ascertain strategic features. His cloak allows him to recon for himself (if implemented in the way you describe), the EMP allows him to act strongly off of that recon, more so than the other recons of the team.
[/quote]

If spotting ability is out of the options (SD even once claimed they don’t wanna give him one, correct me of I’m wrong). Then shouldn’t he be specialized in assassinating?

Recons role, other than spotting enemies, is eliminating key targets. If Phantom’s a true recon, then he should be a close quarter assassin, eliminating key targets (Not melee only, I’m not suggesting turning him into Assasin from Lawbreakers).


(UndeddJester) #13

You’re not wrong. I have said a few times in Phantom threads I think his biggest problem is a lack of efficient kill/execute power, further pronounced by the fact he has to be more close up than other recons.

However, that is where I see potential in the permanent full cloak/EMP blast Phantom. He can pick his moment carefully is the main thing, he doesn’t just have to fight because his cloak is running out, or he has been spotted coming in.

The freedom a full cloak provides is it gives him the chance to kill/execute a key target without it being a one way trip. Right now he has to kill everyone around him, otherwise he is dead, and lets face it, 2vs1 is bad news bears for Phantom.

With this cloak however he can kill/execute (either SMG or melee) then cloak/bounce away. He may get seen doing it, but as he cloaks out it won’t be obvious where he has gone, and he can actually reposition and go for someone else.
The EMP blast ensures he can disable anything that might stop his kill stroke as he goes in, however in the same breathe this scenario means he may HAVE to go for the melee kill, even if its not the optimal choice, putting him in greater danger when trying to get away again. You can even make the EMP knock out his cloak as well, so not standing on your own deployables means Phantom has to make a choice of knocking out the deployable, or trying to find an angle where he can ignore it.

The counter would be high clip weapons LMGs or miniguns to try and keep tagging him and down him as he runs away, so predicting a Phantoms movement becomes a skill in its own right.

It reminds me of the spy in TF2 back when it was good. The main thing Phantom would do is create paranoia, and that can be huge in the right hands :slight_smile:


(watsyurdeal) #14

[quote=“Naonna;199513”]
@Watsyurdeal Seriously, with this? You just blamed Phantom on the early loss of players? [/quote]

http://dirtybomb.nexon.net/news/2569/the-phantom-update/

Look at June to August 2015…

http://steamcharts.com/app/333930

Coincidence?


(Naonna) #15

Uh. yes.

People never JOINED the game because of Phantom, either.

When a game first is released, it will gain an influx of players. Some of these players will stay, and others will leave over time as they get bored with the game, or feel that it isn’t something they feel like investing time in.


(Herr_Hanz) #16

i would suggest allowing 20% of the damage to go through the shield, and hit him. that way its actually worth shooting until he decloaks.


(watsyurdeal) #17

[quote=“Naonna;199574”]Uh. yes.

People never JOINED the game because of Phantom, either.

When a game first is released, it will gain an influx of players. Some of these players will stay, and others will leave over time as they get bored with the game, or feel that it isn’t something they feel like investing time in.[/quote]

People joined because the game went into an open Beta

The Open Beta update went live on 06/02/2015, we had a huge surge in players daily. +6000, then Phantom was released on 07/07/2015, then the daily players dropped, by the time August arrived we lost 3000 players, and it’s been dropping slowly ever since. A year later we peak at around 3000 online at a time in a given day. That’s not the total players of Dirty Bomb mind you, but the number of people online at a given time, globally. 3000, with all of the various countries thrown in.

The game isn’t dying, but it’s not retaining players, and the skill differential between players is so massive, that no amount of matchmaking will fix it.

So yea, I definitely say we can blame it on Phantom.


(Naonna) #18

You may as well blame it on taco bell releasing something new on their menu. It’s not a sharp drop off, and retention has nothing to do with ONE merc in an open beta game.

A lack of player retention can’t be blamed on any one aspect of a game - especially when the entire dev team is tiny, and still managing to create a game as solid as this one. It has strengths and weaknesses.

Without more content, of course people will lose interest and player numbers will taper off over time. With each update, some players are likely to come back and check up on the game, but with such few resources, how is the team expected to add more maps, when their funding is dictated by how many players are in-game?

This has nothing to do with Phantom, even if you have some sort of agenda against him. These are separate issues.


(TheStrangerous) #19

Again, once DB is out of the beta, advertise, advertise and AGAIN advertise as hard as you can, SD.

Cinematic trailers, with tongue in cheek humor, is the way to go.

If it doesn’t go out of beta, well… then I got some bad news for you…


(watsyurdeal) #20

[quote=“Naonna;199629”]You may as well blame it on taco bell releasing something new on their menu. It’s not a sharp drop off, and retention has nothing to do with ONE merc in an open beta game.

A lack of player retention can’t be blamed on any one aspect of a game - especially when the entire dev team is tiny, and still managing to create a game as solid as this one. It has strengths and weaknesses.

Without more content, of course people will lose interest and player numbers will taper off over time. With each update, some players are likely to come back and check up on the game, but with such few resources, how is the team expected to add more maps, when their funding is dictated by how many players are in-game?

This has nothing to do with Phantom, even if you have some sort of agenda against him. These are separate issues.[/quote]

It’s not about more content, or about players losing interest, it’s players getting frustrated by lack of counterplay against particular mechanics, or as of recent, a process of grinding and crafting new skins for your merc, that takes longer than the old system, and retains the same level of RNG. It’s about people feeling powerless when dealing with something, which in turn makes the game unfun.

Perfect example, we can deal with the Skyhammer’s airstrike right? We see the line, and the strike, and hear the jets, we can deal with that, we know how to counter it after a while. Same thing with Medics, we know they can revive people, and we know we have to gib people to put em down for good. So, we use downed people as bait to kill the Medic, or we gun down the merc before we move on, and not put ourselves in a scenario where we have our knife instead of our gun out, or are out of position to simply deny a revive.

You seem to think I’m trying to get Phantom removed, or something of that nature, I am not. I am simply point out the reality of things, that we can do this better. We can make the various mercs just as effective, or more effective, in higher level play, AND reduce the frustrations experienced by new players. We can make Phantom a better stealth merc.

It’s just that simple, and the fact you don’t get that makes me wonder if you are just outright not reading my posts, refusing to acknowledge my arguments, or I am not making myself clear enough to you.

So I am going to now, make it very blunt and simple. The armor is bullshit, if we can see Phantom coming, then his job of flanking, or being stealthy, has FAILED, and he should be punished. But instead, he tanks damage, and it lasts just long enough for him to get up close, and kill some people, even if it’s just one person. That is a frustrating thing to deal with, and there is a much better way of making Phantom a master flanker, that’s less frustrating to deal with, and better in competitive play.