Why Phantom was/is frustrating to deal with

[yesser]

i guess the main thing for phontom is to give him a recon abilty some prototype contact lences that he stole with the suit that make him see through walls but the lences werent the official one and it have some tweak.
the lences give him the abilty to see through walls and mark ennemies in a small radius (the radius get smaller when looking through walls but bigger in a direct way) so we can have a front line recon to detect ennemies and still help in close combat but who is vulnerable to mines when trying to flank to mark ennemies with the cloack that would make his job easier
sorry if it sound like a vassili and redeye combination but this is the only idea that came to my mind to make him a recon

[Szakalot]

yey, another Phantom thread.

Phantom WAS FINE, even on release he wasnt OP. he just had really low skill floor, even lower than rhino.

the ultimate counter to phantom was always not being alone: especially the melee crazies.

people got mad cause they couldnt go 1on1 against Phantom: personally i liked the idea of one merc being great at 1on1 and mediocre at anything else.

then they nerfed Phantom hard: AND HE WAS STILL FINE. weak players didnt have the skills to use him, good players could still pubstar him and enjoy smart use of cloak n armor.

then they gave Phantom EMP : now he is a USELESS CRAP OF A MERC, far far lower than anyone else, not to even mention organized play.

removing armor will make. him even more useless

[watsyurdeal]

[quote=“Szakalot;199983”]yey, another Phantom thread.

Phantom WAS FINE, even on release he wasnt OP. he just had really low skill floor, even lower than rhino.

the ultimate counter to phantom was always not being alone: especially the melee crazies.

people got mad cause they couldnt go 1on1 against Phantom: personally i liked the idea of one merc being great at 1on1 and mediocre at anything else.

then they nerfed Phantom hard: AND HE WAS STILL FINE. weak players didnt have the skills to use him, good players could still pubstar him and enjoy smart use of cloak n armor.

then they gave Phantom EMP : now he is a USELESS CRAP OF A MERC, far far lower than anyone else, not to even mention organized play.

removing armor will make. him even more useless[/quote]

Yep, removing armor was the only thing mentioned in the op

Yep, totally

[jooshoyes]

Phantom’s armor is there to make the joke of a stealth mechanic somwhat useful. I feel if they were to buff his stealth, they would have to reduce the armor.The emp would have to be seperated, letting the refractive armor have its old cooldown back, bringing back the hit and run playstyle he had before, but now he is more stealthy and harder to notice.I’m suggesting 100% invisibilty when you are standing still and then reducing the overall sound generated by the armor drastically, which means the armor should be reduced to 30 damage, so you can take around 2-3 shots from a weapon before the armor depletes, giving phantom not as much time to react, but still substantial enough for him to act upon it. It would reduce the annoyance people have with him, by making the armor easier to disable when noticed, but give the phantom more reward for getting past enemy lines by disabling their deployables for 10 seconds, and killing off a couple of enemies. It would enforce teamplay whilst still not removing the idea of phantom being a lone wolf character.

[TheStrangerous]

If Vassili and Aimee are long range assassins, Redeye is Mid-long arenge Assassin, then It’d make sense if Phantom was Mid-close range assassin.

Right now he’s a standard assault merc with gimmicky ability.

[watsyurdeal]

Phantom’s armor is there to make the joke of a stealth mechanic somwhat useful. I feel if they were to buff his stealth, they would have to reduce the armor.The emp would have to be seperated, letting the refractive armor have its old cooldown back, bringing back the hit and run playstyle he had before, but now he is more stealthy and harder to notice.I’m suggesting 100% invisibilty when you are standing still and then reducing the overall sound generated by the armor drastically, which means the armor should be reduced to 30 damage, so you can take around 2-3 shots from a weapon before the armor depletes, giving phantom not as much time to react, but still substantial enough for him to act upon it. It would reduce the annoyance people have with him, by making the armor easier to disable when noticed, but give the phantom more reward for getting past enemy lines by disabling their deployables for 10 seconds, and killing off a couple of enemies. It would enforce teamplay whilst still not removing the idea of phantom being a lone wolf character.

See to me, it doesn’t make sense for him to have the armor at all when the entire problem is that people can see him WHILE he is trying to get in, and that the other issue is that it is frustrating to deal with something that is essentially able to tank damage until it’s in range to kill you. Even if it’s just one kill, that one kill is immensely frustrating to the victim, because they did all they could, and the matters of prevention is essentially no different than dealing with any other merc who flanks, shoot them before they get close to you.

It makes more sense to me to treat the armor as a separate weapon that you have to switch to and from to use, and disable all forms of attacking or interaction, but when you do use it, you are completely invisible, no matter how fast you move, the only difference is how fast your cloak drains, slower movements drain less, faster movements drain more.

Combine that with a sort of spotting field, that spots enemies, but does not display the “detected” icon on an enemy’s hud, and you got a close range recon class that brings something to the table the others do not.

[JJMAJR]

[quote=“TheStrangerous;200002”]If Vassili and Aimee are long range assassins, Redeye is Mid-long arenge Assassin, then It’d make sense if Phantom was Mid-close range assassin.

Right now he’s a standard assault merc with gimmicky ability.[/quote]

Phantom having his melee play style actively promoted would be the end of him.

Like, he would be removed from the game if that happened.

[blonk]

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;199488”]
Phantom could EASILY be changed to be a more effective stealth merc, an ability that basically behaves like the cloak from BF2142

Where basically, you equip it like it’s a separate weapon from your pistol or rifle, and use it, so you can not attack while cloaked. This means we could buff Phantom’s visibility to hide him completely, 100% invisible, even while he is sprinting, after all, if he can’t attack while cloaked, he is not unfair to fight or deal with. He basically becomes more useful in competitve play as a harasser and master flanker, while also becoming less frustrating in public play to new players, since they don’t feel like they die randomly to some merc.[/quote]

The conversation has advanced a bit from here but I thought I’d mention that the recon cloak in 2142 is far less useful than the one in Dirty Bomb. It’s loud as all hell and you are nowhere near as hidden as you are in el dirto, you can get spotted stationary from quite a distance making it very difficult to use correctly. Pretty much it only worked if there was other visual noise (such as a gunfight or other distractions) to work with you when you made cloaked maneuvers, and if you get caught you get blown to all hell since you’ve not got a weapon out. Not that I’m saying you want it to be exactly like that but it was commonly criticised as being a bit crap. If Phantom lost the ability to engage immediately without switching weapons I think it would be a real loss for the merc.

[watsyurdeal]

[quote=“blonk;200122”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;199488”]
Phantom could EASILY be changed to be a more effective stealth merc, an ability that basically behaves like the cloak from BF2142

Where basically, you equip it like it’s a separate weapon from your pistol or rifle, and use it, so you can not attack while cloaked. This means we could buff Phantom’s visibility to hide him completely, 100% invisible, even while he is sprinting, after all, if he can’t attack while cloaked, he is not unfair to fight or deal with. He basically becomes more useful in competitve play as a harasser and master flanker, while also becoming less frustrating in public play to new players, since they don’t feel like they die randomly to some merc.[/quote]

The conversation has advanced a bit from here but I thought I’d mention that the recon cloak in 2142 is far less useful than the one in Dirty Bomb. It’s loud as all hell and you are nowhere near as hidden as you are in el dirto, you can get spotted stationary from quite a distance making it very difficult to use correctly. Pretty much it only worked if there was other visual noise (such as a gunfight or other distractions) to work with you when you made cloaked maneuvers, and if you get caught you get blown to all hell since you’ve not got a weapon out. Not that I’m saying you want it to be exactly like that but it was commonly criticised as being a bit crap. If Phantom lost the ability to engage immediately without switching weapons I think it would be a real loss for the merc.[/quote]

Well you need to understand, that the aspect of it being treated as a piece of gear that you have to switch to in order to use, means that the player can’t attack while cloaked. By doing this we can change how Phantom’s cloak works.

For example

• Pressing quick ability switches to, and activates your cloak
• Switching to it normally, via Item1 command, just equips it, you have to activate it with left click
• When in use, all actions such as switching weapons, trying to interact with objectives, etc, will cause you to deactivate cloak first, before continuing with said action.
• Cloak now drains based on movement
• Cloak is now 100% invisible, this is both to buff his stealth ability, while completely removing the aspect of being killed by an invisible enemy. Remember, Phantom has to decloak first to attack you, and that process can take about 0.25-0.5 seconds.

I know it sounds complicated, but basically I want the cloak to behave like that of TF2’s Spy, but with a MUCH faster cloak and decloak time, between 0.333-0.5 seconds respectively to keep up with Dirty Bomb’s pace.

[bontsa]

Pretty much exactly that is how I vision it too: Phantom’s cloak is forced to be garbage in terms of invisibility because he can exit it instantaneously, as there has to be some sort of counter play.

Complete invisibility with manual decloak like Watsyurdeal suggests: ultimate repositioning tool without the ability to go full-on “fuck you” out of nowhere with a single-swing 100 dmg weebstick or start dinking Kek headshots from thin air. Phantom would have to use their ability wisely, decloak somewhere in relative safety and then pick the right moment to start attacking the opposition. Magnificent for creating crossfires. Keep the EMP in as separate ability: brilliant sabotage tool.

Suddenly we have Phantom able to use the cloak for escaping, peeking corners, harassing the enemy, create chaos and aid in pushes against fortified positions. Not the current one where its simply a lousy “teehee”- level annoyance against anyone with a brain and functioning arm to move the mouse around.

We got Rhino already to fill a silly narrow niche (damn well but so boring character otherwise). Hope we can at some point have rest of the characters have a little more depth than just one thing wonders.

[blonk]

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;200142”][quote=“blonk;200122”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;199488”]
Phantom could EASILY be changed to be a more effective stealth merc, an ability that basically behaves like the cloak from BF2142

Where basically, you equip it like it’s a separate weapon from your pistol or rifle, and use it, so you can not attack while cloaked. This means we could buff Phantom’s visibility to hide him completely, 100% invisible, even while he is sprinting, after all, if he can’t attack while cloaked, he is not unfair to fight or deal with. He basically becomes more useful in competitve play as a harasser and master flanker, while also becoming less frustrating in public play to new players, since they don’t feel like they die randomly to some merc.[/quote]

The conversation has advanced a bit from here but I thought I’d mention that the recon cloak in 2142 is far less useful than the one in Dirty Bomb. It’s loud as all hell and you are nowhere near as hidden as you are in el dirto, you can get spotted stationary from quite a distance making it very difficult to use correctly. Pretty much it only worked if there was other visual noise (such as a gunfight or other distractions) to work with you when you made cloaked maneuvers, and if you get caught you get blown to all hell since you’ve not got a weapon out. Not that I’m saying you want it to be exactly like that but it was commonly criticised as being a bit crap. If Phantom lost the ability to engage immediately without switching weapons I think it would be a real loss for the merc.[/quote]

Well you need to understand, that the aspect of it being treated as a piece of gear that you have to switch to in order to use, means that the player can’t attack while cloaked. By doing this we can change how Phantom’s cloak works.

For example

• Pressing quick ability switches to, and activates your cloak
• Switching to it normally, via Item1 command, just equips it, you have to activate it with left click
• When in use, all actions such as switching weapons, trying to interact with objectives, etc, will cause you to deactivate cloak first, before continuing with said action.
• Cloak now drains based on movement
• Cloak is now 100% invisible, this is both to buff his stealth ability, while completely removing the aspect of being killed by an invisible enemy. Remember, Phantom has to decloak first to attack you, and that process can take about 0.25-0.5 seconds.

I know it sounds complicated, but basically I want the cloak to behave like that of TF2’s Spy, but with a MUCH faster cloak and decloak time, between 0.333-0.5 seconds respectively to keep up with Dirty Bomb’s pace.[/quote]

Would it be half a second + the weapon draw animation? Half a second is not a very long time at all, especially if you’ve got dinosaur newbie reaction times or unfamiliarity with the audio cues giving away a nearby decloak, and you’d have no way at all to counteract it because rather than being mostly invisible he’s totally invisible and could engage from just about anywhere, nevermind how astute an observer you are. Puts me in mind of the Spy from TF2 but with access to powerful SMGs.

I’d worry that this would trade one form of percieved frustration for another kind that is probably on the same level. You wouldn’t have samurai warriors running at you and would instead be getting picked off at funny angles (PSA: this is what you should be doing right now) and would end up running into enemies backwards in case there’s a phantom behind some box or something, at least from the newbie perspective, and that just doesn’t sound fun either. The good Phanties (if there is such a thing) would still be really annoying.

I might be going against the general opinion here, but I think Phantom is a blast to play at the moment though not on every map, much like the aforementioned Rhino. He does very well on maps like Trainyard, but not so well on some of the others. If I had to suggest improvements they would be more in keeping with the current character rather than redefining it:

1. Make the EMP a separate ability that you can turn on or off, possibly also affecting how much juice you draw when cloaked
2. Increase the cloak noise a bit
3. Possibly give him a bit more speed

[watsyurdeal]

[quote=“blonk;200230”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;200142”][quote=“blonk;200122”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;199488”]
Phantom could EASILY be changed to be a more effective stealth merc, an ability that basically behaves like the cloak from BF2142

Where basically, you equip it like it’s a separate weapon from your pistol or rifle, and use it, so you can not attack while cloaked. This means we could buff Phantom’s visibility to hide him completely, 100% invisible, even while he is sprinting, after all, if he can’t attack while cloaked, he is not unfair to fight or deal with. He basically becomes more useful in competitve play as a harasser and master flanker, while also becoming less frustrating in public play to new players, since they don’t feel like they die randomly to some merc.[/quote]

The conversation has advanced a bit from here but I thought I’d mention that the recon cloak in 2142 is far less useful than the one in Dirty Bomb. It’s loud as all hell and you are nowhere near as hidden as you are in el dirto, you can get spotted stationary from quite a distance making it very difficult to use correctly. Pretty much it only worked if there was other visual noise (such as a gunfight or other distractions) to work with you when you made cloaked maneuvers, and if you get caught you get blown to all hell since you’ve not got a weapon out. Not that I’m saying you want it to be exactly like that but it was commonly criticised as being a bit crap. If Phantom lost the ability to engage immediately without switching weapons I think it would be a real loss for the merc.[/quote]

Well you need to understand, that the aspect of it being treated as a piece of gear that you have to switch to in order to use, means that the player can’t attack while cloaked. By doing this we can change how Phantom’s cloak works.

For example

• Pressing quick ability switches to, and activates your cloak
• Switching to it normally, via Item1 command, just equips it, you have to activate it with left click
• When in use, all actions such as switching weapons, trying to interact with objectives, etc, will cause you to deactivate cloak first, before continuing with said action.
• Cloak now drains based on movement
• Cloak is now 100% invisible, this is both to buff his stealth ability, while completely removing the aspect of being killed by an invisible enemy. Remember, Phantom has to decloak first to attack you, and that process can take about 0.25-0.5 seconds.

I know it sounds complicated, but basically I want the cloak to behave like that of TF2’s Spy, but with a MUCH faster cloak and decloak time, between 0.333-0.5 seconds respectively to keep up with Dirty Bomb’s pace.[/quote]

Would it be half a second + the weapon draw animation? Half a second is not a very long time at all, especially if you’ve got dinosaur newbie reaction times or unfamiliarity with the audio cues giving away a nearby decloak, and you’d have no way at all to counteract it because rather than being mostly invisible he’s totally invisible and could engage from just about anywhere, nevermind how astute an observer you are. Puts me in mind of the Spy from TF2 but with access to powerful SMGs.

I’d worry that this would trade one form of percieved frustration for another kind that is probably on the same level. You wouldn’t have samurai warriors running at you and would instead be getting picked off at funny angles (PSA: this is what you should be doing right now) and would end up running into enemies backwards in case there’s a phantom behind some box or something, at least from the newbie perspective, and that just doesn’t sound fun either. The good Phanties (if there is such a thing) would still be really annoying.

[/quote]

But the thing is the kill time in this game is also MUCH faster, so if someone has an audio cue at least to hear said Phantom, they can react before he has time to start firing, and his first shot advantage would be lost, and depending on the times, he’d probably have the situation reversed, Phantom would be shot first before he could even have his gun ready.

This is why you would decloak in places where people wouldn’t hear you at first, people may not like the idea but that’s part of risk assessment and learning the rules of how things work. Plus this is without the armor mind you, explosives and random bullets would still be a major problem for that Phantom to deal with.

[bontsa]

[quote=“blonk;200230”]
Half a second is not a very long time at all, especially if you’ve got dinosaur newbie reaction times or unfamiliarity with the audio cues giving away a nearby decloak, and you’d have no way at all to counteract it because rather than being mostly invisible he’s totally invisible and could engage from just about anywhere, nevermind how astute an observer you are. Puts me in mind of the Spy from TF2 but with access to powerful SMGs.[/quote]

Look if we started to balance everything around your-average-weekend-warrior we’d be playing SuperSoaker simulator 2050 before you know it. Youknow, no mention of guns because those hurt and all that jazzery. Lets just get soaked and everybody is a winner in the end, filling the MVP screen.

Jokes (or sad, horrifying yet otherwise disguised reality in future) aside voice is the cue, the fact you can see enemy merc composition is the cue (you know to expect Phantom somewhere), depending on how his EMP would work, disabled devices is the cue. Sure he could engage from about anywhere; keep eyes open, be reactive to hits from behind and give each corner one bullet before entering the room as a check. Still doesn’t make him immortal, actually with actual invisible cloak his shield should be removed making him just as vulnerable as your average enemy. After all he bites a too large chunk of enemies at once alone => dead.

Dumbing down game design has to stop, I sure hope we are never gonna see that idiotism ever again after first Dome jump changes ages ago. Things can be kept simple without making them easy to execute.

I’d worry that this would trade one form of percieved frustration for another kind that is probably on the same level. You wouldn’t have samurai warriors running at you and would instead be getting picked off at funny angles (PSA: this is what you should be doing right now) and would end up running into enemies backwards in case there’s a phantom behind some box or something, at least from the newbie perspective, and that just doesn’t sound fun either. The good Phanties (if there is such a thing) would still be really annoying.

That is simply part of the learning curve. If you concentrate on the Phantom too much, you end up being fodder for everything else in front of you. If eager enough to learn and not simply drop the game after first fail, new people would eventually learn that people have to keep an eye on multiple angles and not just run everywhere with blinders on their eyes looking all at one focus point.

What am I dreaming though that’s impossible, nobody learns as all the basketball_joe_1998s (no offense to anyone born in specific year) need their ez wins with no effort whatsoever.

[watsyurdeal]

I get so tired of the term weekend warrior, implying people who only play on weekends are terrible at games, or not above average…

I have two jobs k? And when I play I do just as good when I play throughout the week.

At this point if I had the time I pretty much would just play for competition.

[Naonna]

@blonk did… you just say make him louder? headphone users can already hear him through walls within granduer-sr range.

[blonk]

@blonk did… you just say make him louder? headphone users can already hear him through walls within granduer-sr range.

Only if they gave him more speed, as it stands I don’t feel that the noise is actually that much of a giveaway, certainly I’ve gotten away with murder (ho ho) being nearly point blank with enemies who aren’t new to the game by any means and have them not even know I was there.

Look if we started to balance everything around your-average-weekend-warrior we’d be playing SuperSoaker simulator 2050 before you know it. Youknow, no mention of guns because those hurt and all that jazzery. Lets just get soaked and everybody is a winner in the end, filling the MVP screen.

Are you suggesting you want to see me in a wet tshirt then? :3

Jokes (or sad, horrifying yet otherwise disguised reality in future) aside voice is the cue, the fact you can see enemy merc composition is the cue (you know to expect Phantom somewhere), depending on how his EMP would work, disabled devices is the cue. Sure he could engage from about anywhere; keep eyes open, be reactive to hits from behind and give each corner one bullet before entering the room as a check. Still doesn’t make him immortal, actually with actual invisible cloak his shield should be removed making him just as vulnerable as your average enemy. After all he bites a too large chunk of enemies at once alone => dead.

Dumbing down game design has to stop, I sure hope we are never gonna see that idiotism ever again after first Dome jump changes ages ago. Things can be kept simple without making them easy to execute.

I agree with your sentiment but I don’t think this change smartens the game up really. If anything it makes the cloak less inviting to use as a YOLO s word transferal mechanism. Part of the dynamic I like with the current Phantie is having to make the decision about taking the first strike advantage depending on the surrounding environment like if there are any other enemies around, and having to do all that in a pretty short amount of time. This change would make all that take a lot longer, arguably dumbing it down or at least changing it so it is a slower, more methodical process.

[quote=“bontsa;200248”]

I’d worry that this would trade one form of percieved frustration for another kind that is probably on the same level. You wouldn’t have samurai warriors running at you and would instead be getting picked off at funny angles (PSA: this is what you should be doing right now) and would end up running into enemies backwards in case there’s a phantom behind some box or something, at least from the newbie perspective, and that just doesn’t sound fun either. The good Phanties (if there is such a thing) would still be really annoying.

That is simply part of the learning curve. If you concentrate on the Phantom too much, you end up being fodder for everything else in front of you. If eager enough to learn and not simply drop the game after first fail, new people would eventually learn that people have to keep an eye on multiple angles and not just run everywhere with blinders on their eyes looking all at one focus point.

What am I dreaming though that’s impossible, nobody learns as all the basketball_joe_1998s (no offense to anyone born in specific year) need their ez wins with no effort whatsoever.[/quote]

You’d just be changing one learning curve for another really. If right now you don’t want s worded by an armored cloaked dumbass Phantom you don’t hang around corners and tight spaces and you let him march at you across a road. Job done.