Why Phantom is OP? Or not (after longer gameplay)?

(Vilerin) #1

//* UPDATE: Before you read that article:

  1. It’s based on very skilled players that played phantom - after writing it i met so many standard/weak phantom players it kinda changed my point of view.
  2. Made a lot of tests with friend and came to conclusion he is Very durable cqc/midrange assassin type - amazing char but mostly 1 vs 1.
  3. 90% of phantom players doesn’t play like is writen below and on open maps it’s definitely harder for him to execute his teamplay.

//*

There are few factors that make this merc OP as he is now:

  1. Shield - it takes too many HS to kill him, so in close range even aimbot can have problems - actually I think his HP pool is close to rhino but rhino is an easy target.
  2. Speed - he uses katana so his actual speed is close to kira sprinting with Br-16 Equipped +/-, maybe even faster.
  3. Map design - Most encounters in this game are in short/medium range, especialy when you are attacker, there are points where you have to go and always meet ppl in cqc - with Phantom shield/speed it’s just unfair.
  4. Katana - most annoying is that you just see him nearby/corner/situation you cannot avoid cqc and he 1shots you easily with his range, I don’t mind katana dealing 200 dmg with backstab but not 1shot or 1shot+lmb most classes in this game.

Don’t get me wrong I like this char and not everything from this 1-4 points is OP - combined together leads to frustrating situations you can’t do anything. It’s like knife runners in CoD but here it’s even more pathetic thanks to shield.

I didn’t mention his cloak only shield part because his cloak is very easy to spot - never had problems finding him.

Most frustrating situations are when enemy phantom in defending team runs throu door and you know he will wait nearby to stab you, sadly even if you get near door your TTK it too long (I am seriously considering that all bullets you shoot are HS) and he will just go back and 1shot you. - This happens a lot especialy nearby objectives and places I have to cross to advance the map…

Right now from “best shooter experience since ET/Quake Wars” it’s only frustration when I play against phantom, well 1 is ok - in narrow spaces you are destined to lose against him - let it be some disballance or cheap feature of merc but against 2/3 phantoms on Bridge…

We all came to play DB not “how to counter shadow” game =/

Conclusion:
Phantom right now on public servers is like TANK class that moves quite fast and instantly kills ppl in short range with katana, some ppl might have problem spotting him leading them to even bigger frustration. Play def team and stay on CQC map fragments to ensure enemy TTK is lower than your time to stab him frontaly and happily enjoy - works best with 2/3 friends and makes game impossible for most enemies.

PS: This post are just my thought about this new merc, still love this game but it’s getting frustrating - hope it will not reach point of no return. In 95% of games I have top kills+exp - seriously I am more like casual that doesn’t play comp and enjoys murdering ppl on pubs.

PS2: Anyone also got his forum name changed back to random one ? Was waiting few days for it to change to my ingame name and after few more it’s back to same random nickname =/

(Ghosthree3) #2

It is too early to propose any changes for certain. BUT, I have considered the following, alone or in any combination:

  • Nerf shield cooldown, it feels like it’s always up.
  • Reduce shield damage absorbtion. Unsure about this one though, I don’t think it’s that bad.
  • Make heavy Katana swing much harder to hit, right now there’s a massive window for dealing damage with it and it’s just too easy. This one needs to happen imo.
  • Remove Chopper from his Katana loadouts. This should probably happen too.
  • Reduce health a bit, 100 or 110 would be small but significant.
(cornJester) #3

[quote=“Ghosthree3;40776”]It is too early to propose any changes for certain. BUT, I have considered the following, alone or in any combination:

  • Nerf shield cooldown, it feels like it’s always up.
  • Reduce shield damage absorbtion. Unsure about this one though, I don’t think it’s that bad.
  • Make heavy Katana swing much harder to hit, right now there’s a massive window for dealing damage with it and it’s just too easy. This one needs to happen imo.
  • Remove Chopper from his Katana loadouts. This should probably happen too.
  • Reduce health a bit, 100 or 110 would be small but significant.[/quote]

Removing anything from loadouts is a terrible idea since you effectively ruin the entire loadout for certain people. The melee focused loadout with chopper and katana may only be used because it has chopper and katana, I’d use a crotzni otherwise. By removing it you waste people’s resources and turn a great card into a possibly bad one depending on what they choose.

(crimsonYouth) #4

[quote=“Ghosthree3;40776”]- Reduce shield damage absorbtion. Unsure about this one though, I don’t think it’s that bad.
[/quote]

I think this is the only nerf needed… i ran through a Kira laser while cloaked and all it did was eat my cloak and i kept running with full HP lol. It only hit me for a split secound but still, it would have killed a Rhino.

(Ghosthree3) #5

Well while I may dislike the gun, the KEK loadout with Katana has it, this is just too much considering most consider the KEK the best smg. I use the Crotzni one myself. The player resources aren’t that much of a problem. If a card gets modified just give the player a choice of repicking any card from the tier of card they had as a replacement. Remove the original from their inventory.

From my experience it can absorb any singular blow, or a bit of chip damage. Reducing the total damage it can absorb wouldn’t stop it absorbing the laser/airstrike/mine/etc.

(Shananuga) #6

[quote=“heartsickCruller;13738”]There are few factors that make this merc OP as he is now:

  1. Shield - it takes too many HS to kill him, so in close range even aimbot can have problems - actually I think his HP pool is close to rhino but rhino is an easy target.
  2. Speed - he uses katana so his actual speed is close to kira sprinting with Br-16 Equipped +/-, maybe even faster.
  3. Map design - Most encounters in this game are in short/medium range, especialy when you are attacker, there are points where you have to go and always meet ppl in cqc - with Phantom shield/speed it’s just unfair.
  4. Katana - most annoying is that you just see him nearby/corner/situation you cannot avoid cqc and he 1shots you easily with his range, I don’t mind katana dealing 200 dmg with backstab but not 1shot or 1shot+lmb most classes in this game.

Don’t get me wrong I like this char and not everything from this 1-4 points is OP - combined together leads to frustrating situations you can’t do anything. It’s like knife runners in CoD but here it’s even more pathetic thanks to shield.

I didn’t mention his cloak only shield part because his cloak is very easy to spot - never had problems finding him.

Most frustrating situations are when enemy phantom in defending team runs throu door and you know he will wait nearby to stab you, sadly even if you get near door your TTK it too long (I am seriously considering that all bullets you shoot are HS) and he will just go back and 1shot you. - This happens a lot especialy nearby objectives and places I have to cross to advance the map…

Right now from “best shooter experience since ET/Quake Wars” it’s only frustration when I play against phantom, well 1 is ok - in narrow spaces you are destined to lose against him - let it be some disballance or cheap feature of merc but against 2/3 phantoms on Bridge…

We all came to play DB not “how to counter shadow” game =/

Conclusion:
Phantom right now on public servers is like TANK class that moves quite fast and instantly kills ppl in short range with katana, some ppl might have problem spotting him leading them to even bigger frustration. Play def team and stay on CQC map fragments to ensure enemy TTK is lower than your time to stab him frontaly and happily enjoy - works best with 2/3 friends and makes game impossible for most enemies.

PS: This post are just my thought about this new merc, still love this game but it’s getting frustrating - hope it will not reach point of no return. In 95% of games I have top kills+exp - seriously I am more like casual that doesn’t play comp and enjoys murdering ppl on pubs.

PS2: Anyone also got his forum name changed back to random one ? Was waiting few days for it to change to my ingame name and after few more it’s back to same random nickname =/[/quote]

I played against him now a couple of times (really in every match are now 1 or 2 xD) and i don’t know if i just meet bad players or people are overreacting on a grand scale.

I still kill him with one mag if his shield is on (m4, KEK10 and Crotzni)
in short corridors its even easier because he rushes from the front with katana so i can just shoot him without getting shot until hes in range for his Katana.
IF he manages to get close I’m 90% of times dead tho. But thats kinda his thing

While seeing his Kit i first thought damn with the Kek10 this is like a fast moving fortress but not many are using his primary somehow so far

Just from reading your points its obvious that all his pros together are kind of imbalance. I mean he has no weakness to speak off which is odd. But after 10 games or so in pub i don’t feel the threat honestly.

After my first stealth/katana backstab death i was really paranoid and imidiatly focused more on my surroundings and looked at how many phantoms were on the enemy team. But after the initial shock i nearly forgot about him again.

You can now change your name in your preferences now, that might be why your name changed back

(Vext) #7

From my own conclusions playing against and with a phantom I feel I can say a few points. For the record I am a dedicated Sparks so some points may not be seen by other classes.

When I shoot at a Phantom sparks machine pistol does absolutly nothing to Phantom, his cloak takes all of my rounds and hardly even drains its effectiveness, aswell he straightup just takes multiple clips to kill only missing a few shots, and his shield with stands my blasts from my med gun so the charge time isnt worth trying.

I find i cannot out run him as one of the fastest characters in the game, with my knife out.

Phantom can one shot me in any form he likes as long as his knife is used.

Its just as far as i can tell a sparks which can easily kill any other character in the game and can contend in kills by comparison to other mercs, has no defense or offense against this merc as it stands.

My points summed up i feel really well, probably most of the same you are hearing from others.

  • Reduce his speed, if he is a stealth assassin, stealth normally implies slower movement, which running should also drain his cloak alot faster as the refractive suit technically should struggle to keep up with the changing environments
  • Less melee damage from katana and reduced speed of hits
  • Reduce his max health to that of a normal character as he isnt a tank
  • Make bullets knock his cooldown alot more
  • Take away his primary again it isnt needed (he has DE and Revolvers hes fine without prim)
  • Take small damage from explosives not none as that isnt a fair mechanic at all to explosive players

Just as it stands Phantom is just too much of a hassle to play against each game I saw one they were top of board with the least deaths and if their death count was high it was due to someones rezing over and over.

Once again this is my point of view from a dedicated sparks. I made this account specifically for this post :smiley:

(Ghosthree3) #8

This is already the case.

(CaRe) #9

One annoying aspect is that allied and enemy Phantoms make the identical sound, so when one walks past you as a defender, I keep freaking out and turn around because I think I am about to get back-stabbed.

Also, I think making the allied Phantom’s visually differ from the enemy while cloaked would be great. Atm, I believe they look identical (at least in my cfg) which makes me sometimes shoot at them when the allied-marker is not in my FOV, yet, or they surprise me.

I did not play vs any really good phantoms, yet, so I have no idea how the balance looks like. I’m still waiting for them to walljump and trick-jump to flank instead of only mindlessly running forward.

(tangeloCompany) #10

Sadly, i’m going back to cs. He dosen’t belong too a fps shooter. If you can’t see why, then i feel bad for you.
Thank you for the fun time DB :slight_smile:

(Kaos88) #11

I feel the same way tangeloCompany. Just changed the whole feel of the game with a stealth melee class in a FPS skill based shooter O_o

(Ghosthree3) #12

[quote=“tangeloCompany;40822”]Sadly, i’m going back to cs. He dosen’t belong too a fps shooter. If you can’t see why, then i feel bad for you.
Thank you for the fun time DB :)[/quote]
Later, pretentious prick!

(deliciousSedan) #13

I don’t like mercs that have no counter and Phantom falls right into this category as of right now. He is quite literally the king of 1v1 and cqc with no counter. Yeah, you can detect him or see him when he uses his shield, but that just turns him into a regular merc with a primary weapon and an absorb shield.

Ideally I’d like to see the damage reduction gone from the stealth. I honestly don’t understand the reason to include it in the first place. You either have stealth and no damage reduction, or you have damage reduction on no stealth. Phantom literally has his cake and eats it too.

(Fuze) #14

[quote=“deliciousSedan;40839”]I don’t like mercs that have no counter and Phantom falls right into this category as of right now. He is quite literally the king of 1v1 and cqc with no counter. Yeah, you can detect him or see him when he uses his shield, but that just turns him into a regular merc with a primary weapon and an absorb shield.

Ideally I’d like to see the damage reduction gone from the stealth. I honestly don’t understand the reason to include it in the first place. You either have stealth and no damage reduction, or you have damage reduction on no stealth. Phantom literally has his cake and eats it too.[/quote]

Uh, what? Heartbeat sensor completely disables his cloak, meaning no invisibility and no extra armor. How is that not a counter? I don’t understand how people keep claiming he has no counter.

(ATTEM) #15

There’s too many phantom players in game right now. It’s gonna get worse when the merc is on free rotation…

(Ghosthree3) #16

It’ll calm down in a couple of days.

(MTLMortis) #17

Your shotgun does as much damage as his katana…from ranged. Drop a mine and circle around it. If they’re dumb enough to get in close, they go kablooie.

I’m taking all comments till this class has been out for at least a week with a mountain of salt.

(viridianMiner) #18

Let’s not spread any lies:

Speed of Aura/proxy/sparks with an smg = 423
Speed of Kira with an rifle = 394
Speed of Kira with a pistol or a melee weap = 437
Speed of Phantom with a melee weap = 398

It’s actually very easy to kite Phantom he plays melee only (which is why it sucks ass against any decent player)

Also, the katana only deals slightly more dmg than other melee weapon, which make little no difference. You can also one shot squishies with the bat and the +20% melee perk mod and it has the same range.

I’ve just played Nade melee only game and guess what, I insta killed every medic/proxy in the ennemy team. Melee was always powerful but it seems the new players just didn’t realize it.

(Vilerin) #19

UPDATE to my thoughts about this class after hours of testing can be found in my 1st post.
For me he is as “OP as Nader” - overaly strong and in some scenarios can shine but this one is more suited to 1 vs 1.

(Jojack) #20

and then:

It’s actually very easy to kite Phantom he plays melee only (which is why it sucks ass against any decent player)

HA! He has the crotzni and the kek! The two best smg’s in the game! Even without the katana he’s ridiculous. He’s got more HP than Rhino, the move speed of a light-ish merc, and the best gun in the game.

I haven’t seen many people complain about his melee at all. It’s his shield, for crying out loud, that makes him take this game to a place that just isn’t fun (in my opinion, of course).