[quote=“BananaSlug;144008”]this is stupid
moving left right adds rng to your aim, now every vaseline is that fucker that stands still for entire mach because if he moves he needs to pray the rng if he wants to hit something
for me vaseline is dead right now[/quote]
WHaat even walking adds the rng? I thought I was just a terrible shot, though it’s maybe a bit that too. Should’ve given Vassili a go before this nerf
This thread is pretty simple. Everyone who wants this reverted either had the patience to play Vassili and get good with him with time or they simply respect and understand the skill it requires in order to master him. Everyone who wants this reverted either got completely violated by a good Vassili or they simply suck with him. If you’re not able to snipe, you’re not able to snipe. Doesn’t mean that those who can should be punished because your poor little self cannot do the same.
Even before this patch… I saw people complaining about how Vassili was useless and occasionally wanted whoever was playing him to switch mercs or else they vote kicked you out. On other occasions he got magically OP and was so easy to use. Basically what I’m saying is that players feedbacks were all based on how good you were with the merc. Vassili is the only merc that if you can’t aim… you’re useless. It’s already difficult to aim players that are zooming past your screen… even more so when you jumped at the same time. It is completely based on your ability to aim with a gun which is why the nerfs are incredibly concerning. All the other mercs have alternatives such as lasers from the moon, grenades, mines, turrets, artillery which doesn’t even come close to the skill required to be able to snipe and jump sniping is a problem? Not to mention those mercs also come with automatic weapons that are pretty much just as accurate as the sniper rifle from any range.
I don’t get how diminishing a players skill down to RNG is any good and how people find this acceptable. It’s mind blowing. Will we see RNG in bomb planting soon enough? A chance of the mercenary planting screwing up and making the bomb blow up in his face? Making his team lose the round or something? Or maybe failing to reload your weapon properly, dropping your magazine on the ground? Maybe a chance of getting a heart attack during battle and fall dead? Smarten up.
Revert this change… for everything. Not only for snipers.
Vas was my bae. Now he’s sitting on the bench.
Vas jumping and staying mobile to compete at midrange was done by using cover, while the stated intent for the change was to increase randomness in jumping to reduce the potency of jumping to rng win at mid range firefights.
Vas has one shot to accomplish something at mid range, while everybody else will get, comparatively speaking, more shots and more general accuracy. Pre-patch, if a Vas starts jumping in a firefight, he’s just going to get himself killed. He won’t be able to put down enough bullets to compensate for RNG, so he essentially is relying on 1, maybe 2, lucky flick shots or quick scopes. Jumping didn’t help with either of those.
And, unlike Redeye, Vas can’t create his own cover, so he needs to be able to abuse whatever cover he can get. So while Redeye can basically create a 3 merc high wall of penetrable cover anywhere, Vas has to get creative to create a comparable amount of cover. Hence why jumpshots are so integral to getting Vas to compete with Redeye. If Redeye is capable of locking down anywhere by throwing down cover and shooting through it, Vas has to compete by finding localized areas he can lockdown and using the cover there. And even then, it’s not as effective as Redeye, since Redeye’s cover has team utility, and Redeye doesn’t need to rely on snap reactions because his cover is basically one way cover so he can afford to keep his view on the area he’s locking down 100% of the time.
Since RNG brutalized Vas’ ability to use cover comparatively to Redeye, he’s pretty much entirely outclassed by Redeye. Vas has literally 1 quality that isn’t outclassed by Redeye, and it’s his motion sensor, but I’m not playing Vasilli because of a motion sensor. I play Vasilli because he has a bolt-action sniper, but I have no real reason to play him since his niche with those snipers has been gutted.
Vassili is a mechanically skilled merc.
Yes noone likes getting one shot across the map, but guess what, Vassili isn’t the only merc that can do this.
Revert the changes back, currently he is one of the simplest and most hard mercs to use effectively. If players took the time to learn him, like some took the time to learn Sparks, then all of a sudden he was magically effective.
The only difference is that Vassili took way more skill than Sparks.
[quote=“Maverix_GT;143661”][quote=“jollyRacer;143582”]
People who are defending the change, have a look at Dirty bomb. There’s air support, grenades flying everywhere and yet you complain about a jumping vasilli.
[/quote]
https://youtu.be/zXYBO7YcVRY[/quote]
Whaaaa? He actually hit you mid-air? Everyone is saying that’s impossible! Wooo!
[quote=“Jostabeere;144332”][quote=“Maverix_GT;143661”][quote=“jollyRacer;143582”]
People who are defending the change, have a look at Dirty bomb. There’s air support, grenades flying everywhere and yet you complain about a jumping vasilli.
[/quote]
https://youtu.be/zXYBO7YcVRY[/quote]
Whaaaa? He actually hit you mid-air? Everyone is saying that’s impossible! Wooo![/quote]
Out of luck where he technically missed with his crosshair being not on the enemy. That totally makes sense and encourages accuracy.
Translation: I want to be able to kill people from 300 meters away while making figure eights in the air between two walls with them having zero chance of being able to retaliate due to damage dropoff and range.
ok.
Translation: I want to be able to kill people from 300 meters away while making figure eights in the air between two walls with them having zero chance of being able to retaliate due to damage dropoff and range.
ok.[/quote]
I honestly have to agree with this
Translation: I want to be able to kill people from 300 meters away while making figure eights in the air between two walls with them having zero chance of being able to retaliate due to damage dropoff and range.
ok.[/quote]
With a very low chance of hitting even if you have high skill level. Let alone a headshot with regular pub players who don’t have much experience.
Translation: I want to be able to kill people from 300 meters away while making figure eights in the air between two walls with them having zero chance of being able to retaliate due to damage dropoff and range.
ok.[/quote]
Without the ability to jump Vas players get two options and sometimes only one. Move out and peek left or peek right. Even jumping up on top of something takes too much time to reset now. To combat situations/areas of a map that didn’t allow left/right peeking you jumped to get shots. If you were trying to fight a jumping Vassili you were doing it wrong. The main issue with jumping Vas’s is they can only see when they are jumping. So rushing them works quite nicely…which is why any good Vas is rather handy with the MP400. But when you remove the jumping from the Vassili player, many weapons in this game can easily beat him out in most situations on maps since you can line up in the main area they are going to peek and headshot them. That’s why the jump style became prominent…it’s literally the only way to be useful as Vas as opposed to the “worthless” kinds that probably even you make fun of that simply sit at the back of the map.
If you are the Skyhammer in the video below at the start, you’re playing wrong. Same for the Rhino near the start and I am sure others too. Also, most everything done in that video can’t be done now and it is stupid.
Translation: I want to be able to kill people from 300 meters away while making figure eights in the air between two walls with them having zero chance of being able to retaliate due to damage dropoff and range.
ok.[/quote]
You do make it sound so easy
That video is exactly why it needed to be nerfed. Even including the fact that the opposing team is just fracking horrible.
It is not a “playstyle”, it is abusing game physics to be a nigh invulnerable, high kill count player. I want to be a wall bouncing, mini-gun shooting Rhino. That’s a playstyle I want but that doesn’t mean I’m going to get it. Balance does not mean you get a cake and eat it to. AWP whores are annoying enough as it is.
Yeah, try that on the new objective map and let me know how that goes.
Translation: I want to be able to kill people from 300 meters away while making figure eights in the air between two walls with them having zero chance of being able to retaliate due to damage dropoff and range.
ok.[/quote]
Without the ability to jump Vas players get two options and sometimes only one. Move out and peek left or peek right. Even jumping up on top of something takes too much time to reset now. To combat situations/areas of a map that didn’t allow left/right peeking you jumped to get shots. If you were trying to fight a jumping Vassili you were doing it wrong. The main issue with jumping Vas’s is they can only see when they are jumping. So rushing them works quite nicely…which is why any good Vas is rather handy with the MP400. But when you remove the jumping from the Vassili player, many weapons in this game can easily beat him out in most situations on maps since you can line up in the main area they are going to peek and headshot them. That’s why the jump style became prominent…it’s literally the only way to be useful as Vas as opposed to the “worthless” kinds that probably even you make fun of that simply sit at the back of the map.
If you are the Skyhammer in the video below at the start, you’re playing wrong. Same for the Rhino near the start and I am sure others too. Also, most everything done in that video can’t be done now and it is stupid.
I understand where you are comiing from @Amerika but until people have a way of getting around certain areas without getting their head lopped off immediately there’s going to be a problem.
I understand the argument, Vasilli’s should have options for movement whether it’s peeking, jump shotting, whatever, the less stationary he needs to be the better it is overall considering this game’s pace.
But you also as a game designer have to be sure players have a way of countering or dealing with a Sniper who can peek out only so long to kill you instantly, while you either have to deal with him or try to get past him.
Some examples include Chapel, there’s a few key points where a Vasilli can be set up and you can’t get around him very easily. The balcony on the first point on Defender side, and even Attacker side if you don’t know the jump, really wish they didn’t remove that. The corner of the street where the two story building is, next to the Machine Gun and the Ammo Box, then at the far end of the street where the EV stops. You have to land jumps to get around into the enemy spawn and flank Vasilli from behind. On that last point however, Defender Vasillis are pretty much safe. If they are stupid enough to peek out they are giving away the only tactical advantage they have, because they have plenty of sightlines from the spot and it’s basically impossible to be flanked there.
I am all for giving player’s more options, but the victims need them as well. That was my problem with Vasilli intitally, there was very little anyone could do to get around them or avoid them, everywhere was a sightline.
Maybe a scope in time nerf would be needed? Maybe have aimpunch only apply when aiming? Force Vasilli to unscope while jumping? Idk
But in regards to giving him more options, I agree as long as the counter play is there.
Translation: I want to be able to kill people from 300 meters away while making figure eights in the air between two walls with them having zero chance of being able to retaliate due to damage dropoff and range.
ok.[/quote]
Without the ability to jump Vas players get two options and sometimes only one. Move out and peek left or peek right. Even jumping up on top of something takes too much time to reset now. To combat situations/areas of a map that didn’t allow left/right peeking you jumped to get shots. If you were trying to fight a jumping Vassili you were doing it wrong. The main issue with jumping Vas’s is they can only see when they are jumping. So rushing them works quite nicely…which is why any good Vas is rather handy with the MP400. But when you remove the jumping from the Vassili player, many weapons in this game can easily beat him out in most situations on maps since you can line up in the main area they are going to peek and headshot them. That’s why the jump style became prominent…it’s literally the only way to be useful as Vas as opposed to the “worthless” kinds that probably even you make fun of that simply sit at the back of the map.
If you are the Skyhammer in the video below at the start, you’re playing wrong. Same for the Rhino near the start and I am sure others too. Also, most everything done in that video can’t be done now and it is stupid.
I understand where you are comiing from @Amerika but until people have a way of getting around certain areas without getting their head lopped off immediately there’s going to be a problem.
I understand the argument, Vasilli’s should have options for movement whether it’s peeking, jump shotting, whatever, the less stationary he needs to be the better it is overall considering this game’s pace.
But you also as a game designer have to be sure players have a way of countering or dealing with a Sniper who can peek out only so long to kill you instantly, while you either have to deal with him or try to get past him.
Some examples include Chapel, there’s a few key points where a Vasilli can be set up and you can’t get around him very easily. The balcony on the first point on Defender side, and even Attacker side if you don’t know the jump, really wish they didn’t remove that. The corner of the street where the two story building is, next to the Machine Gun and the Ammo Box, then at the far end of the street where the EV stops. You have to land jumps to get around into the enemy spawn and flank Vasilli from behind. On that last point however, Defender Vasillis are pretty much safe. If they are stupid enough to peek out they are giving away the only tactical advantage they have, because they have plenty of sightlines from the spot and it’s basically impossible to be flanked there.
I am all for giving player’s more options, but the victims need them as well. That was my problem with Vasilli intitally, there was very little anyone could do to get around them or avoid them, everywhere was a sightline.
Maybe a scope in time nerf would be needed? Maybe have aimpunch only apply when aiming? Force Vasilli to unscope while jumping? Idk
But in regards to giving him more options, I agree as long as the counter play is there.[/quote]
You’re talking about fighting Vassili in areas where he doesn’t have to move to be effective and is setup. He’s fine in those situations. And you can shoot him in the feet in either position you spoke about on Chapel BTW. I do it all the time.
I’m talking about being aggressive and mobile and not a stationary Vassili player who can push on offense and be an asset to the team. That was completely ripped out of the game recently despite the fact that only a few players can really do it consistently (so it was rarely even seen on pubs). Now the only way to play is exactly as you describe. Dug in and only useful in situations where it isn’t easy to get at Vas…which are few and far between.
Let’s not pretend that you can’t dome a Vas player from pretty far away using AR’s. I do it constantly. And you can harass pretty well with SMG’s too. I know what I am talking about in regards to easily beating the predictable peeking Vas because I destroy them without much thought put into it. They have few options and less time than I have to hit. And since I use BR’s these days a lot I usually shoot and then duck into a doorway unless I don’t think they are looking at me. Then all I do is change my attack angle, if possible, and finish so they can’t have a shot lined up on me. And for a jumping Vas there is counter-play as well which I discussed. You have to fight a player doing that differently than you do a peeker. If you’re sitting there trying to trade you’re going to lose. If you watched the vid I posted you saw tons of people doing exactly that when they could have either flanked (since I can’t see) or just not engaged and make the Vas come to them.
The removal of his ability to jump and shoot with the bolt actions (leave the pdp and GR where they are IMO) completely kills his style of aggressiveness. Which isn’t even something people ran into often due to the skill ceiling associated with it.
Vassili should be good and he should be a high skill ceiling merc. Now the skill ceiling got lowered and he is much less valuable in most positions on a map.
Never agreed more with @Amerika on anything than this. Takes the words out of my mouth with every post on this issue regarding Vassili.
Cheers. Honestly I’m still just too pissed off about the patch to really form my thoughts coherently without getting myself banned. So I appreciate someone else’s eloquence on the topic. Just giving my vote of resounding agreement.
[quote=“Amerika;145771”]
Let’s not pretend that you can’t dome a Vas player from pretty far away using AR’s. I to it constantly. And you can harass pretty well with SMG’s too. I know what I am talking about in regards to easily beating the predictable peeking Vas because I destroy them without much thought put into it. They have few options and less time than I have to hit. .[/quote]
I wouldn’t chance it, jumping vaselines tend to have more cover and more line of sight (when jumping up) behind an object then having to go on the left or right. Takes more bullets from my gun then his if we both hit the head. That’s why I like Nader, dem bouncing grenades. Stark is nice against them too but if his jumping is unpredictable then I won’t even bother, just hide out of line of sight and take my chances with his closer teammates even if my movement area is limited.
If you complain about Vasilli jump shots, then you should also be complaining about Rhino sitting around a corner with his minigun revved up, or any of the various grenade-carrying mercs lobbing grenades over cover. In all of these cases, you aren’t going to win trying to compete with them in the same way unless you’re a comparable merc.
And it would be ridiculous to assume that you should be able to compete with any merc, as any merc, at any range, in any situation. A sniper has a very meaningful weakness in close range, yet you don’t see Vasillis complaining about how they can’t deal with shotguns or SMGs. It’s the expected result. Which is why I have no sympathy when a person with an SMG or AR complains that they can’t outshoot a Vasilli at long range. Well no shit sherlock, it’s called effective range, and every gun has one. If you’re competing in my optimal range and you can’t beat me, it’s the expected result.
I’m expected as Vasilli to adapt to when a person manages to get close to me, you should be expected as any other merc to know how to deal with me. It’s not like I’m wielding an infinite ammo one shot one kill perfect accuracy minigun. I will have downtime when you can move forward, not even including the obvious need to reload, and you have cover, and explosives that you can use to keep me suppressed. I’m not going to keep jump shotting if a Nader is shooting nades right over my head. Heck, I’m likely not even going to jump if you’ve clipped me a few times when I jump shotted previously, since 2 hits from pretty much any gun will deal about a quarter of my health.
The point of having a merc is so that, in certain situations, you will perform better than another merc in a meaningful way. Otherwise, why not just play something else? It’s the reason why Thunder is considered supremely outclassed by Fragger, and the changes to RNG jump shots is making the same case for picking Redeye over Vasilli. If you’re going to have to resort to left or right peeking to maintain accuracy, why wouldn’t I pick a merc that can do that type of peek much safer? I have almost no reason to be running a bolt action right now because bolt actions are terrible guns for left right peeks, so the PDP is, once again, the supreme overlord of all snipers, and Redeye is the better PDP merc.
[quote=“Dog;145808”]If you complain about Vasilli jump shots, then you should also be complaining about Rhino sitting around a corner with his minigun revved up, or any of the various grenade-carrying mercs lobbing grenades over cover. In all of these cases, you aren’t going to win trying to compete with them in the same way unless you’re a comparable merc.
And it would be ridiculous to assume that you should be able to compete with any merc, as any merc, at any range, in any situation. A sniper has a very meaningful weakness in close range, yet you don’t see Vasillis complaining about how they can’t deal with shotguns or SMGs. It’s the expected result. Which is why I have no sympathy when a person with an SMG or AR complains that they can’t outshoot a Vasilli at long range. Well no shit sherlock, it’s called effective range, and every gun has one. If you’re competing in my optimal range and you can’t beat me, it’s the expected result.
I’m expected as Vasilli to adapt to when a person manages to get close to me, you should be expected as any other merc to know how to deal with me. It’s not like I’m wielding an infinite ammo one shot one kill perfect accuracy minigun. I will have downtime when you can move forward, not even including the obvious need to reload, and you have cover, and explosives that you can use to keep me suppressed. I’m not going to keep jump shotting if a Nader is shooting nades right over my head. Heck, I’m likely not even going to jump if you’ve clipped me a few times when I jump shotted previously, since 2 hits from pretty much any gun will deal about a quarter of my health.
The point of having a merc is so that, in certain situations, you will perform better than another merc in a meaningful way. Otherwise, why not just play something else? It’s the reason why Thunder is considered supremely outclassed by Fragger, and the changes to RNG jump shots is making the same case for picking Redeye over Vasilli. If you’re going to have to resort to left or right peeking to maintain accuracy, why wouldn’t I pick a merc that can do that type of peek much safer? I have almost no reason to be running a bolt action right now because bolt actions are terrible guns for left right peeks, so the PDP is, once again, the supreme overlord of all snipers, and Redeye is the better PDP merc. [/quote]
@Dog I very much agree with you. Snipers are supposed to be effective at long range and there should always be a tactic, in this case, jumping, to reward accuracy and more experienced players. But people are complaining that it’s “OP” and unfair. Like what you said, they should nerf Nader and Fragger’s explosives when they jump shoot their explosives because it gives them an “OP advantage” to get their explosives to a longer range. Or put a invisible wall for Rhino’s in corners to avoid him camping there. No, just no.
Another factor to consider is that, does jump shooting/throwing explosives or whatnot take more skill and accuracy with hand coordination or sniping? Seriously, the answer’s obvious and I really don’t understand why people want sniper jumpshots stay nerfed.
Before this nerf, literally no one even complained how jumpshotting for snipers are OP and should be nerfed. It was until this patch that people started defending this nerf with little sense.
That video is exactly why it needed to be nerfed. Even including the fact that the opposing team is just fracking horrible.
It is not a “playstyle”, it is abusing game physics to be a nigh invulnerable, high kill count player. I want to be a wall bouncing, mini-gun shooting Rhino. That’s a playstyle I want but that doesn’t mean I’m going to get it. Balance does not mean you get a cake and eat it to. AWP whores are annoying enough as it is.
Yeah, try that on the new objective map and let me know how that goes.[/quote]
The difference here is I can be a nigh invulnerable high kill count player with almost any merc. The only way to do it on Vassili on the regular is to play like I played and it is MUCH tougher than going with Stoker or Fragger or Skyhammer or Sawbonez or Phoenix etc. etc.
It’s also the only way to not be an anchor on your team most of the time. You can dictate a match based on your play with almost all mercs. With Vassili you have to go high risk and same reward. But at least it was possible…up until recently.
Are you happy with a bunch of Vassili players who sit at the back of a map taking pot shots all day and never advancing? Have you never once made a joke or even gotten mad with the terrible Vassili players that sit there all day and do nothing? I’d wager you probably have. But considering you use the term “awp whore” and aren’t joking it probably doesn’t even matter what I say to you as you obviously just want snipers in general to be nerfed hard as it is one less thing to think about or know how to counter.
Should Fletcher’s accuracy throwing stickies be changed to something completely random due to him jumping off a wall? Or Nader’s nades not going where you shoot them?
I didn’t play the new map. I also don’t know why you’re bringing up Rhino as if that changes anything regarding the balance of the bolt-action rifles. I am speaking for Aimee’s viability here too since she will most likely be tied to the reliability/viability of the bolt-action rifles as well.
[quote=“triteCherry;145796”][quote=“Amerika;145771”]
Let’s not pretend that you can’t dome a Vas player from pretty far away using AR’s. I to it constantly. And you can harass pretty well with SMG’s too. I know what I am talking about in regards to easily beating the predictable peeking Vas because I destroy them without much thought put into it. They have few options and less time than I have to hit. .[/quote]
I wouldn’t chance it, jumping vaselines tend to have more cover and more line of sight (when jumping up) behind an object then having to go on the left or right. Takes more bullets from my gun then his if we both hit the head. That’s why I like Nader, dem bouncing grenades. Stark is nice against them too but if his jumping is unpredictable then I won’t even bother, just hide out of line of sight and take my chances with his closer teammates even if my movement area is limited.
[/quote]
Which is why I mentioned in that same post that you have the choice not to engage. That is exactly what you should do in some situations regardless of your merc. Just like I am not going to run at a Rhino who is sitting in a door with his gun spun up. Choosing not to engage is key to intelligent play.
Can Splash Damage just listen to Amerika and revert this change?
I mean come on, he’s laid out the best points and there’s really no counter-argument to his other than “I hate snipers” basically.
Put it this way, if this change was never made, people wouldn’t be asking for it. I think someone mentioned that this has been a big topic on the forums, but I have not seen a single thread (before the update) asking for Vassili’s jumping accuracy to be nerfed. I think I saw a couple about the shotguns, but that’s it.