White Chapel Feedback

[Bananas]

It’s really badly designed to be honest. I’ve played it with small teams, full teams, and in a pug tonight. The entire map feels like a lemming fest. None of the objectives are well made.

Obj 1) Long escort objective. Boring spam fest. Lemming objective to keep it moving.

Obj 2) Rush in to grab multiple pick ups.

Obj 3) Move escort a small distance again. Zzzz.

Obj 4) What is this? You can repair all three objectives right away, and you STILL are forced to wait for the lift. That’s bad design.

Obj 5) Move escort small distance again. ZzZzZ.

Obj 6) Lemming a pick up through a very small distance. Difficult for defenders to do much about. Then you have to do it again after delivering it…? Zzz…

The whole map is just like a straightforward movement. It feels like you have no options except push push push push.

This map reminds me of how people felt about Quarry in Quake Wars.

Just remove the map or remake it entirely.

[INF3RN0]

The only way that this map is going to survive is if it becomes much more open or has a lot more routes available. The 2nd objective and last objective need a complete redesign, and the lift objective is much too slow even when the
lift repairs are completed.

[Humate]

Hmm, not the most stopwatch friendly map.

[iwound]

there are way too many objectives. too cramped and the drip feed spawn system doesnt help it.
but its early and quarry was ok.

[murka]

I wonder if a single repair objective for the lift and then the lift taking 10sec to move would fix most of it. The last obj really does need rework. Maybe it should go more indoors where the defenders have a side access.

[Violator]

The main issues I have for the map are:

1. Waiting for the lift.
2. The map feels very cramped as a whole.
3. Too many objectives, rarely see attackers win.
4. The docs objs are so short its hard to defend unless the defenders are stacked enough.

[warbie]

Both maps are way too cramped, but white chapel in particular.

[retsy]

yeah i have to say i am not a fan of this map in its current state. i have seen alot of improvements from the very first time i played it. it is for sure very cramped feeling throughout. cramped is good, it adds pressure to push harder, objective faster…which can be enjoyable…but i do have a hard time playing like that for a whole map, of course thats just my opinion. i see some people are liking that

i am sorry if feelings got hurt. not my intention.

i will try to find some time to draw up ideas i have too

[Apoc]

Trying to defend the fuel cells is a nightmare, its a bottleneck followed by lots of grenade friendly little hideouts. With 16 players on a map, every aspect can be grenaded within one push. Its all just grenades, spam, rush, spam spam spam, see who happens to be alive, spam,spamspam etc.

Doesnt work. The fuel cells should be in different rooms, making it challenging to defend but also challenging to attack, depending on how each side decides to play.

[MrEd]

I’m wondering if it’s possible to turn this thread into something more positive and thought I might share with you some of the methods we use internally for map feedback. During development every map has undergone radical changes from its initial blockout and they all tend to fluctuate from incredible to horribad at some stage along the way but the end goal is to try and find a good balance.

London Bridge and Waterloo are now very different from the maps they started out as and it was through an evolution that they ended up as they are now, with London Bridge being the most mature map in the game and Waterloo a little way behind. Camden on the the other hand is extremely new and raw with lots of iteration going on while it’s in the initial blockout stages.

Whitechapel also got iterated hugely during its blockout stage until it reached a point where it was fun enough to do the full art pass. Now that is a very tricky stage for a map as real meshes have different characteristics to fully BSP blockouts, it might be a subtle thing here and there that makes a dramatic affect on how the map plays. Walls get thicker, doorways narrower, corridors longer, edges become sticky to collision, angle of fire get obscured and new death traps created.

So after the art pass the level designers have to go back in and rebalance the map for its new characteristics, you might say it’s the awkward adolescent phase. London Bridge and Waterloo both had their awkward phases, Camden undoubtedly will do at some point down the line and that is the stage Whitechapel is at now.

So what do we do internally to try and solve this? Well we try and work out which bits of the maps are the most frustrating, where the flow breaks down, why it worked in the past and why it doesn’t work now and we offer daily feedback to the LDs in order to help them balance the levels. When I’m giving feedback, no matter how much I disliked the playtest, I always try to find at least 1 thing about the map I like and then I can try and not crush the LD’s feelings.

It’s worked pretty well so far and hopefully we can keep trying to find that sweet spot down the line so this becomes the best game in the whole wide world ever!

[Anti]

I’d like to echo MrEd’s comments, ‘scraping’ a map doesn’t do anybody any good, you lose content to play and we’d lose work we’ve invested a lot of time in.

Suggestions on how to improve or fix the map are much more useful to us. You folks have already given us some good feedback on this and we will be working some of that into the map at some point.

You have to have patience when it comes to map changes though, compared to many elements of the game they are one of the things that can take some time to adjust, especially once they have reached a stage where they are having art added.

You also need to bear in mind that we are likely to have some maps that go outside of the normal ‘formula’ of map design we use, to allow us to try out new gameplay and give you the players a more varied experience. Some maps may not be ideal for competition, or may not appeal to you personally, but will still be fun for other players. You only have to look at something like Call of Duty’s Nuketown to see how a condensed and very active map can still be enjoyable and popular for a lot of players.

[iwound]

… I always try to find at least 1 thing about the map I like and then I can try and not crush the LD’s feelings…

just buy him/her some chocolates. ive scrapped many a map. took it to the woods and boom never seen again.

ill try and point out the good bits aswell.

[DarkangelUK]

I think in general the defence spawn too close where the attacking team spawn too far away… in fact that seems to be a common trend in a lot of the maps. On the initial EV stage, the defence have quick easy routes to get into place high up where the attackers have the low ground and windy paths to get to a decent stand point. Attackers are funnelled into a single path and are easy pickings.

Chapel stage again the defence spawn too close, they’re in a static position as well to throwing a couple of turrets down means you’re against more than 8 guns, a team with 3 engi2’s means you’re fighting against 11 shooters… the attacking team can’t plonk turrets down to help for any great period.

The lift stage I’m still confused about, do engi’s need to repair the control points? What’s the advantage of it compared to just babysitting the lift? Once again the defenders have easy access to the high ground where the attackers are left low and exposed.

The final objective is just a lemming run, the engagement area is so small and compact that the defenders barely need to move to be in position. There’s no alt routes that need covered, there’s no flanking routes for the attackers… they can all sit with their backs to the walls with relative safety.

[neg]

You only have to look at something like Call of Duty’s Nuketown to see how a condensed and very active map can still be enjoyable and popular for a lot of players.

Eeeeeek, I highly doubt anyone plays nuketown because they like it, they play it because its the way of least resistance to ranking up/farming perks or what have you, and i would rather we dont start comparing this game to CoD/BF because honestly we dont need another CoD/BF clone, while its obvious you want to attract the masses breaking down the gameplay into something that is extremely diluted isnt something that i assume most people here would be interested in.

Personally i havent played the map enough to give a real opinion on it, but thats just my two cents

[Chris2]

Another its broken so lets remove it request…

As mentioned it’s a little cramp, navigating around the EV as it passes through the streets is bothersome. At this late stage I’m sure it would be nightmare to adjust the width of the streets, I’ve had to do similar in my custom maps, as you say when you block out something it may appear fine but when you flesh out a map it can all change and when you realise it’s changed for the worse it’s a right pain to rectify.

Anyway general things that make the map tiresome to play through on attack:

Where the EV starts the defence has lots of high ground available complete with solid cover which they can hide behind and heal up if they take damage all too easily, I would remove all the solid elements and just leave the railings in that area, it’s just too safe for them there, the brickwork between the arches should be enough.

The right hand side route for the attack leading up to the bridge is bit too narrow when you’re indoors, it’s a death trap, perhaps opening that whole area up would be goodidea, there is nice area already that has some stairs leading to same point that is blocked by some boxes which could be used by adding another entrance, this may make it easier for the defense to spawn camp though.

On the left hand route, it’s quite good already if hard to miss sometimes, I often forget about it when attacking. Anyway perhaps when you leave the route into the main area where the EV is, make the exit closer to the EV just to make it little bit easier.

Meant to be writing a report so will come back to rest of map another time but agree with Apoc about the cores being in another room.

[warbie]

To be fair, something like CoD is much more flexible when it comes to map layouts. One of my main concerns with DB is the current map layouts don’t promote or give much room for team play. The front lines are all over the shop and it’s often like running through a maze.

[stealth6]

I actually find Whitechapel the most fun for pub play since everybody is forced to be near the objective area. In the other maps the attacking team keeps pushing the defending team, sometimes way way back and then there is 1 guy left escorting the EV missing all the action. Or people start planting C4 on the second barrier while the EV isn’t even on the bridge. (concentrating on the wrong objective) etc.

For people saying defense has the high ground at the start, there are multiple routes, you can sneak through the building on the right flank, you can snipe them from the platform on the left flank or you can go through the middle using cars as cover. Only the middle route is really at a disadvantage so you need your team to cover you - teamplay woo!
The defense has to be quite coordinated to constantly cover all of these routes. Most of the time they get distracted and you can slip an engineer through.

As for the map being cramped I like it like that, means the attackers need to use the EV to push forward instead of running ahead and trying to be rambo. My main complaint is the collision detection near the EV unintentionally blocks you sometimes which is annoying.

The library is the same story, you need your whole team to push as one to break through, an adjustment in spawntimes might help the team to realize this.

The lift is the most confusing part of the map, the consoles increase the speed of the lift. Without them I think it takes near 5 minutes? to get the lift to the bottom. I have no idea what the cover does? Would be cool if somebody could point this out to me. This part is the most DM’y part of the map since the map opens up a bit and people start scattering trying to cover all objectives at once.

Then the last part actually completes the map, most of the time you get to the last part with 1-3minutes to spare and then it really becomes a race against time to run those objectives over. This part is maybe a little to cramped and generally boils down to who can spam the most amount of bullets. It just turns into a meat grinder with both teams throwing themselves at the enemy in an attempt to slow them or push through. I’m not sure if it’s a bad thing though since your stress level starts to rise and if you do win then you get a huge rush.

[FROST1]

[QUOTE=iwound;415472]just buy him/her some chocolates. ive scrapped many a map. took it to the woods and boom never seen again.

ill try and point out the good bits aswell.[/QUOTE]

With all due respect, but just dumping WC would be outright crazy. That map is not a simple one man mod. Even though It’s admittedly also my least favorite one of the three(four), it would never had even came to my mind to suggest to “scrap” the entire map.

But I have to admit, that at first I really disliked WC from a visual standpoint. The more glad I’m how good it looks now. (I had no previous experiences whatsoever, with half textured/built maps)

What I still miss the most in WC though are more alternate routes to and into the chapel. After that chapter the map gets quite open anyways.

[Senethro]

Can we get an overhead plan picture of whitechapel?

[Loffy]

Let’s work together to evolve, improve, and keep WC ;D

When the EV makes its first left turn, and starts heading towards the chapel, could the environment be made a bit brighter? I.e., make the map less dark in that area, please. There are a lot of duels and fighting going on there, so it is imperative that the conditions are fair.