Which is the best way to figure 3D reality on a 2D screen ?


(nay) #1

hi everyone,

I am 31, I m belgian, so excuse my english,
I ll try my best.

3D games tries to recreate the reality on a flat screen.
and on this point everyone could help the programmers,
even me ! or you !

at least, I think …

I will discuss this point.

You certainly remember the ancient egyptian paintings and sculptures ;
no perspectives at all : a man by profile represented with 2 legs and 2 arms ,
we know that in reality we only see 1 of each.

This realy changed with the European rebirth around 1500 and leonardo da vinci,since then,
we judge the perspective as the “good” 2D representation of 3D reality.

From wolfenstein , through quake , to RTCW-ET ,this is the perspective that programmers use to
figure 3D reality.

But I am not satisfied of it !!!

When I look with my own eyes a scene of the real life,
when I look straight forward I almost see a 170 degres angle,
if I turn my eyes on the left and on the right, the angle is about 260 degres.

And that’s very important, vital .

In RTCW-ET and others , the best is 90 ,because there is no deformation of the scene,
but try to modify this : /cg_fov 160 (here is 2 captures),

http://yann59.free.fr/1fov90.jpg

http://yann59.free.fr/2fov160.jpg

play 5 minutes and go to the bathroom to throw up .
The brain have too much work to recreate the world we are in, because there is too much deformations.

Why is that ?

How many times did you go through a door and didn t even see
an oponent that obviously you couldn t have missed in real life ?

Sometimes it s funny , I shoot an oponent in his eyes but the player doesn t see me !!!

Am I the only one to be annoyed by that ?

I assume that most of the time ,our eyes , I mean hardcore gamer’s eyes, don t even MOVE !!!

Just as the eyes of movies spectators, film directors knows that , they never place an important
scene at the extreme right or left.

We spend almost all the playing time looking at the crossair,
when we need to look to the right we move the mouse to the right,
but our eyes are still looking the crossair !!!

OK , sometimes we look around with our eyes, lets say in an ellipse around the crossair ,
but rarely at the extremes up , down , right or left , and never the 4 corners of the screen.

In RTCW-ET , when we look with the binoculars ,
we see that :

http://yann59.free.fr/3binocularsellipse.jpg

an ellipse , and black around it.

the real essential area of the screen, the area that we look 95 per cent of the time
is an ELLIPSE centered on the crosshair.

So here is my idea :

within the ellipse we see with a cg_fov 90;
and
outside of it, the thin area between the ellipse and the limits of the screen,
we condense a cg_fov 160,
in order to figure the rest a our real field of vue.

here is a possible result:

http://yann59.free.fr/4mix.jpg

in this exemple the ellipse is too small , the contraction I tried with photoshop didn t work as well
as I espected, it s like we were diving with a mask , but it s pretty new , you have to
imagine this in movement , with a bigger ellipse, with a thinner area outside the ellipse ,
and a better method of contraction , or a different form , like one between ellipse and rectangle
with rounded corners, perhaps a smoother transition between the 2 fov.

Of course the thin space is completely compacted, condensed, but the essential is here, comprehensible,
a doorway on the right , the lamp above it, the tank on the left, the wires on top,
and this area is not so important, so we doesn t need to SEE it without deformations,
we just need to GUESS it , like in the real life .If we detect something threatening , we turn .

Is my idea new ?
What do you think of it ?
May be, someone else already had this idea, tested it , without success,
let me know.

nay


(skinner) #2

for the game to be set at your natural fov your eyes would have to be up against the monitor


(SCDS_reyalP) #3

That is an interesting idea. I bet it would make quite a few people sick. It would also require about 2x the rendering power.

The real problem is that our monitors are too small. For a 160 degree FOV to work, your actual screen would have to fill 160 degrees of your real view. For most of us, that would mean putting our nosea directly on the glass. That would also mean the amount of screen that you could actually see clearly would be quite small (since you only really concentrate on a small part) so you would need higher resolution as well.


(RR2DO2) #4

http://wouter.fov120.com/gfxengine/fisheyequake/

Fisheye Quake :clap:


(kotkis) #5

I couldn’t imagine playing with 90 fov after getting used to 120 :slight_smile:


(Englander) #6

Only thing with high FOV is it looks like ur on LSD ,100 is as high as I will go.


(SuperIQMan) #7

As seen in this comparison : http://wouter.fov120.com/gfxengine/fisheyequake/compare.html (thanks RR2DO2), it sure would be great to have this feature in new gfx cards !

I vote yes for fisheye feature !


(Miles Teg) #8

Whoa. Fisheye Quake looks brilliant.

Nice thread, Nay.


(_NeT_N_osfera2) #9

nice except that if you can really see 260 degrees you need surgery.

i use a FOV toggle script and have mine to 105 i think thats resonable.

// fov-Script
//
bind “kp_minus” “vstr fdn”
bind “kp_plus” “vstr fup”
set fdn vstr fov90
set fup vstr fov95
set fov90 “cg_fov 90;set fdn vstr fov90;set fup vstr fov95;echo fov 90”
set fov95 “cg_fov 95;set fdn vstr fov90;set fup vstr fov100;echo fov 95”
set fov100 “cg_fov 100;set fdn vstr fov95;set fup vstr fov105;echo fov 100”
set fov105 “cg_fov 105;set fdn vstr fov100;set fup vstr fov110;echo fov 105”
set fov110 “cg_fov 110;set fdn vstr fov105;set fup vstr fov115;echo fov 110”
set fov115 “cg_fov 115;set fdn vstr fov110;set fup vstr fov120;echo fov 115”
set fov120 “cg_fov 120;set fdn vstr fov115;set fup vstr fov125;echo fov 120”
//


(nay) #10

wow ! :eek:

what can I say after that ?
not much.

first : Why id software, splash damage, etc …, didn t implemented fisheye quake (FEQ) yet ?
is this only a question of cpu and gpu, not strong enough ?
what are game companies waiting for ?

second : for me, FEQ is a cheat, as the programmer mentioned it,
because on fov_180 it has almost no deformation near the edges !
and that s great, but in real life, there is deformation, FEQ is to much efficient.

third : as the FEQ’s programmer said, fov_120=FEQfov_180, same objects sizes in center,
but 4 times smaller than a fov_90, so 4 times more chances to miss your opponent if he is in fov_90 !!

my idea, let s call it the MaskEye, wouldn t have these problems,
it would combines a non deformed fov in center, so a maximum size for the importants objects,
and an extremely deformed fov near the edges of the screen, for the non importants objects.
So it would be the most playable, and makes no one sick, because the essential area wouldn t be deformed at all.
With FEQ, near the edges of the screen, 2 perpendiculars lignes seems parallels, that made me sick when I tried.

one more thing:

An eye can only receive a 2D image,
it’s the brain that creates a 3D world.

if you look at a small cube (dice),
with ONE eye you can t see opposit faces at a time (1 AND 6),
with TWO eyes you can.

In futur (I think to the 3D glasses),
games will have to calculate 2 images at a time,
one for the right eye, the second for the left,
like 2 images taken before and after a small straff.

With FEQ, I assume that the 2 images would be too different for the brain to recreate reality in center,
and impossible near the edges.

with MaskEye this problem does not exist.

nevertheless, FEQ already exists, maskEye doesn t.

thanks to all of U,
a big thanks to RR2DO2.

nay

ps: 90,100,120 ? (mine is 110).
FEQ or not FEQ in future games ?
would a massive poll be appropriate ?


(Pentagram) #11

Should we implement the huge blind spot in the middle of your vision too? :moo:

cough


(digibob) #12

Er, that was me, logged in as charles… er :slight_smile:


(Hewster) #13

lol, umm err really ??? the mind boggles as to why… do tell :slight_smile:

Or is djbob actually the Belgian Tenebrae programmer, now living in
London.

Back to Quake Fisheye technology, I feel if you mixed this technique with
wrap-around 3D (virtual) goggles, it would be excellent :slight_smile:
Maybe the max FOV should be 160-180 though, although I Guess with
enough exposure to it, the brain would get used to whatever image
it received.

I saw a TV program once where a scientist made some goggles which
inverted the image (real life), after a week or so of wearing them his
brain adjusted to the new image, and when he took them off he felt the
same as when had put them on (if you know what I mean), basically
his brain simply adjusted to the new visual stimulus :slight_smile:

Hewster


(digibob) #14

He stole my machine, so i stole his :moo:


(pgh) #15

Fov 1000 from FEQ… feel sick running about like that o_O