Which body type is your favourite? (part 1)

(tokamak) #161

That’s exactly what I got from him as well and I know him enough as a player that the label ‘propub’ fits him perfectly.

However I’m of the opinion that a match where your body type is locked is far more demanding to your skill than getting to change it on the fly.

The core of the argument here is that Shirosae wants to ban all randomness out of the game so there’s a perfectly level playing field on which only (his definition of) skill triumphs. On the other side there’s me who wants the playing field as shuffled up as possible, being able to adjust, anticipate and improvise to factors outside of your control is a skill as well.

So there’s where I think the main disagreement lies. Shirosae is the chess player and I’m the poker player (I hate poker, but the analogy works).

Then, are both views equal? Of course. Mine just happens to be in congruences with the developer’s one. Lucky me. Should SD pay as much attention to both views? Yes and no. Of course it’s in the interest of everyone to have a game that caters to everyone. It’s supposed to become a big hit after all. But, and I’ve said that in my other post as well. The difference with non-vanilla players is that they want changes all on different fields in different ways. One doesn’t want iron sights, the other wants changeable body types, another disagrees on the cost of changing that body type, etc. SD can add in some options, but you can’t expect them to go balance a game they basically don’t have in mind themselves.

If you have your own ideas about how the game should roll then that’s fine and respected, but then it’s something you should work out yourself. And I really hope the tools to do so are accessible from the get go so players who really care can tailor the game until it works for them.

So in the end, nobody wants to begrudge players who want something different. It’s just that you could think up an infinite amount of ways to want the game different. As long as the game is fully customisable with a devkit there shouldn’t be any problem.

(shirosae) #162

Me: I’d like the ability to have servers where we can swap body types in game, so there’s an extra level of tactical overlay to be managed as the game goes on for those that want it.

You: Splash Damage shouldn’t need to balance body type swapping.

Me: SD don’t need to balance that, because either body types are balanced already, or there’s a huge problem that will be there whether we can change body types or not.

You: So if there is a huge problem with body type balance, why not play on anyway?

Your reply does not follow from the existing conversation.

Your argument that we can’t change body types because SD would need to balance it is flawed: there is no balancing to be done, because SD has already stated that body types are balanced.

I want the option to change so I actually have some tactical information in order to make that decision about body type. And then if the enemy team chooses some strategy, I have the ability to go from heavy to light (for example), to take advantage of the areas only accessible to the light.

The point of the body type is that it forces different approaches to combat and objectives by offering players a limited set of abilities at any one time. Allowing players limited ability to swap between those types during a match does nothing to hinder that limited abilities playstyle.

Your argument is false.

What’s boring is picking a body type randomly with no reason and then playing against another bunch of random body types chosen without reason without any sort of metagame involved. It becomes another lottery cone-of-fire spread. Boring.

I see, clearly those vanilla players asking for split screen and DLC and flamethrowers and dedicated servers in the suggestions thread are actually secretly propub players, since we know that vanilla players only want to play what they’re given.

And how dare those propub players offer up suggestions about how to make the game better, after Splash Damage explicitly solicits suggestions on how to make the game better?

Clearly, Splash Damage should only listen to the non-existent suggestions from the vanilla players who aren’t making them, and ignore the seasoned players who actually want to improve the game and respond to the request for them to do exactly that.

I actually read one of your posts - just one, and inside three replies you’re already swerving the conversation across multiple lanes like Trinity in The Matrix to avoid actually supporting your position with reasoned arguments. We’re done.

This is exactly what I’m saying.

Apparently we’re not allowed to have a server setting to let us explore on-the-fly body type changing though, because even though it wouldn’t require additional balancing, it would.

And even though it does and does not require additional balancing, you should just play on anyway, whatever that even means.

(tokamak) #163

You’re right, that post is a mess.

(ShamWOW) #164

i picked light body type cause i like trying to flank the enemy fast and unexpectedly with mobility to get in and out. But now that i think about what i voted for i shouldnt have voted at all the game is out yet and i still dont know what feels right to me yet. i think there sould have had a -wait and see option for the poll

(tokamak) #165

Mate, hence the part 1. The moment SD releases more info on body types/classes we’ll have another round.

(ShamWOW) #166

then round 2 its is… or 3 and so on

(tokamak) #167

Yeah that’s the idea, every time enough new info arises we’ll have another check.

(ThunderWank) #168

Very informative thread.
Heavy Engineer it is :smiley:
And zomg…that shot gun in the recent video…it’s just so damn sexy.
And thanks to the increased health of enemies shot guns won’t be junk a la CoD.

(H0RSE) #169

This is a poor example, because Elementalist is a CLASS, not a ‘body type’, or something similar.
You seem to think that if you join a match with a certain grouping of body types on your team, that it will be unbalanced, and unwinable, and you are completely wrong. What would be unwinable or unbalanced is if you wound up on a team comprised entirely of medics, and they weren’t able to change their class…but this isn’t the case. They can change their class on the fly during a match, making every match balanced and winable. The only thing you really need to be concerned with is if you get teamed with skilled team players, or noobs.

I agree that changing body types should not be allowed during a match. I would even go as far to say not allow it at all, unless you switch to a different character altogether. Being ‘stuck’ with your body type for the entire match, doesn’t detract to the game, it adds to it. Basically, what you want Shirosae, is to be able to change body and class, on the fly as needed, providing you with a “Superman” type build, all the time. This would just make games extremely boring and predictable, as everyone would be going for the the best build for their respective class. Remember, YOU CAN CHANGE CLASSES DURING MATCHES! The body type is just like a ‘fine tuning’ I would say. It isn’t going to make or brake a match being teamed up with a ‘bad’ ratio of body types. What’s going to win or lose matches is how players work together and adapt to this new game mechanic.

Keeping one body throughout the match adds depth by really having to work as a team, and building your character. It adds challenge by learning to adapt with what you have, and and it just makes sense.

Yes, I know it’s a video game, and there are unrealistic things like respawning and such, but you can’t enter the match as Bruce Lee, and halfway through become Arnold Schwarzenegger. You can’t enter the battle with a bunch of thin teammates, and halfway through everyone is pumped up on Creatine. If you join as a Heavy, you can be a Heavy medic, soldier, operative, or engineer, but you should remain Heavy throughout the match. You should be able to change your ‘job,’ but not your actual physical attributes.

A good portion of the game is devoted to creating a character, with his own ‘feel’ or identity. In RPG terms, why would I worry about building an Elf, when I can have an Orc or Human whenever I want it? It would make the Character Customization process completely pointless. Plus there are weapon upgrades and abilities you can unlock. So if you are a ‘Light’ character, there may be upgrades and abilities that can either make you a really, really, good Light character, or ones that can fill in the gaps where you are lacking.

You’re going to build your characters look, his weapons and skills. You’re going to take him online and learn the maps and the objectives, and know which body and which cass works best. You’re going to know the differences between a Heavy medic and a Light medic, and deal with them accordingly. You’re going to learn how to play all the classes and take full advantage of your skills, upgrades, and body type. You’re going to learn the in and outs of the game, and know how to deal with any situation the game throws at you. You can change classes in game, and change body types between matches. I really don’t see what the problem is.

(tokamak) #170

Ah yes, finally someone that understands it :stroggbanana:

A better example would be seeing an entire team of the same race pop up, which is never a problem.

(Ragoo) #171

[QUOTE=H0RSE;203899]
You’re going to build your characters look, his weapons and skills. You’re going to take him online and learn the maps and the objectives, and know which body and which cass works best. You’re going to know the differences between a Heavy medic and a Light medic, and deal with them accordingly. You’re going to learn how to play all the classes and take full advantage of your skills, upgrades, and body type. You’re going to learn the in and outs of the game, and know how to deal with any situation the game throws at you. You can change classes in game, and change body types between matches. I really don’t see what the problem is.[/QUOTE]

You could just give the ‘hardcore’ community the option to turn character changing during a match ‘on’ or ‘off’ and then let them decide which they like better for competitive play. I really don’t see what the problem is.
I call that democracy and the best solution (as long as it is an easy thing to implant for SD!).

(shirosae) #172

I didn’t argue that that reason for quitting a GW RA match due to class balance was good logic, or equivalent to quitting a game in Brink for bodytype reasons. As such, whether body type is as huge a mechanic as a GW class or not isn’t really relevant.

What I actually said was that some people will instantly quit a team when they believe that their randomly assigned roles are not perfect. I offered up Guild Wars RA as an example of that behaviour, not an parallel for why you can’t lock bodytypes during a match.

Within that context, more important than the actual gameplay effects of body type is the general perception of it.

I’m not actually too worried about it; I tend not to play on scrub servers - I only mentioned it because Rahdo offered it up as a reason to lock bodytypes, when I’m not convinced it’ll have anything other than a (possibly mild) detrimental effect on the situation he’s trying to avoid.

tl;dr:

I said that scrubs tend to resign when they sense any random imperfection in their team.

I offered Guild Wars as an example to back up the assertion that the described behaviour does actually happen, nothing more.

[QUOTE=H0RSE;203899]You seem to think that if you join a match with a certain grouping of body types on your team, that it will be unbalanced, and unwinable, and you are completely wrong.

<snip conclusions drawn from the strawman>

Basically, what you want Shirosae, is to be able to change body and class, on the fly as needed, providing you with a “Superman” type build, all the time.

<snip more conclusions drawn from the strawman>[/quote]

You seem to think that it’s okay to pull a bunch of stuff from the imaginary fantasy realm in your head and attribute it to me. That is fairly rude.

If you want to know what I think and what I want it’s really easy to get to it; I typed it out and posted it in this thread.

Here’s a summary:
What I want is a hardcore server setting to turn on the ability to change body type a few times during a match, (probably regulated by control of command posts, if not a server-set timer will do,) so that teams have the ability to alter and counter another layer of tactics during a match.

This ‘superman build’ and ‘want bodytypes to be worthless’ stuff you and Tokamak keep going on about comes from your minds, not mine.

That said, I do find it interesting that when I explicitly state that I want a hardcore-only server setting so a minority of players can experiment with on-the-fly bodytype changing, and when I successfully argue that it doesn’t need additional balancing because by definition it needs to be for the normal vanilla game to be, suddenly people don’t want to discuss that any more, instead preferring to counter things I haven’t said.

(tokamak) #173

[QUOTE=Ragoo;203908]You could just give the ‘hardcore’ community the option to turn character changing during a match ‘on’ or ‘off’ and then let them decide which they like better for competitive play. I really don’t see what the problem is.
I call that democracy and the best solution (as long as it is an easy thing to implant for SD!).[/QUOTE]

Of course it should be part of the comp kit.

(H0RSE) #174

Well you keep going on about how you wouldn’t want be to put on a team of ‘randoms’ and would like the ability to swap to the most effective body/class combo, aka ‘Superman build’ to counter opponents more easily. By doing this, it makes choosing a body type, and the whole body type mechanic, useless in the first place if I can just change when need be.

I think SD is trying to add a new layer to it’s gameplay. This isn’t QW, or W:ET, this is a brand new IP. It may share many similarites with previous games, but it is not the previous games, so expecting it, and all the mechanics built into it, to play out like an ET with new models and skins, is just being naive. I think they are going for some sort of system where you have to deal with the choices you made, work with your team, and adapt if necessary, rather than always have access to the ‘optimal’ loadout. And as said many times previously, All body types can play as any class, they just may have to play them differently.

(xXHugDangerXx) #175

(assuming the comp kit would be released separately like with ET:qw)
I don’t think this should be the case, I never played any comp but liked the promod servers for casual play as compared to the vanilla servers (when it wasn’t just limited to medic, I hated that).

Including this with the comp kit would in theory separate the content from the casual audience, opening up many different play styles to everyone from a vanilla set up will help people who enjoy different styles of game play to enjoy the game as a whole.

So I say-

Hardcore (limited settings games, customisable)

Normal (standard game mode)

Fun (sped up spawns/gameplay, lots of ammo ect.)

In this situation you would be catering to many player types from the get go, someone’s
initial impression makes or breaks a game for them.

(I have got to say the suggestions for game types haven’t had much thought put into them, I was just showing that in this sense it would be nice to provide game modes for people at the opposite sets of the scale.)

:stroggtapir:-------------o T_T

(H0RSE) #176

If you want to have changeable body types during a match out of the box, then I would say it would have to be limited to a server setting, and you could only play games that don’t progress through the campaign. The Campaign is meant to be played a certain way, and altering the settings would make the way SD intended the story mode to be played out, meaningless. However, just playing matches for the sake of playing matches, and not worrying about story, I see nothing wrong with implementing a server setting for that.

(Ragoo) #177

I’m glad we all agree on this one :slight_smile:

Hopefully SD will hear my prayers :stuck_out_tongue:

(Reanimator) #178

That is a very reasonable proposition

(stealth6) #179

now that horse explained what tokamak meant all this time I have a counter arguement :stuck_out_tongue:

Now we have 2 things on the table
-Your saying class and body type have nothing to do with one another

-Previous statement was that having a bigger bodytype changes the way the class works, aka fattys have more life but are slower, etc…

So if the two are split and have nothing to do with eachother we go back to my first point that the competitive people are going to keep trying combos untill they find the slimmest model that is the hardest to hit.

If the two are combined, then it’s a different story, each class has another 3 sub groups
Medic:
-light
-medium
-heavy
Soldier
-light
…

So then it’s more like you have CLASS x BODYTYPES options to choose from, so then changing in game isn’t so stupid.
Otherwise it could pan out that the other team has picked an excellent array of bodytypes and they are absolutely creaming you and you can’t switch till the match is over, and are thus playing to loose :frowning:

See my point?

EDIT: and at the RPG stuff, if you want to build a character, level up, collect cool stuff go buy yourself a nice rpg, or borderlands an fprpg.
I don’t mind light rpg’ish elements, but full blown rpg cant change character etc… wtf?? 300 voice: “THIS IS FPS”

(Reanimator) #180

From what I’ve gathered the different body types don’t make a huge difference, like its not game-breaking. Every bodytype has their own pros/cons. I think health/speed and all that stuff is based on solely body type, and not class, so you’re basically either a fast medic, balanced medic, or tank medic, but its all balanced out so the other team can’t cream you unless they’re better.