We need forced balancing

[Tanker_Ray]

@Dox ‘far more stuff out weighs individual skill.’ I agree with this so hard, but too bad I just can’t agree no more with what @Szakalot said.

[Dawnlazy]

Personally I switch when too many people leave in the enemy team. Though I may take a bit to do so just to not get longspawned, heh. And, you know, sometimes I just reeeally want to throw that airstrike at the EV to get that game mode XP.

[watsyurdeal]

I don’t see the point in switching, often times I switch and become the teams carry on either side, because too many people play in a passive manner and don’t push up. That or they don’t stick together so well or watch out for each other.

Pretty much the only thing that stops me is having to fight 3 v 1’s, and that is an issue of team work, you will NEVER solve this with matchmaking, it’s people and how they play is the issue.

Forcing a square peg into a round hold is just going to ruin things.

[doxjq]

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;213618”]I don’t see the point in switching, often times I switch and become the teams carry on either side, because too many people play in a passive manner and don’t push up. That or they don’t stick together so well or watch out for each other.

Pretty much the only thing that stops me is having to fight 3 v 1’s, and that is an issue of team work, you will NEVER solve this with matchmaking, it’s people and how they play is the issue.

Forcing a square peg into a round hold is just going to ruin things.[/quote]

Haha this too. I’ll often switch teams if the attacking team is losing in an objective game and they only have 1 minute left to get the first objective done or something. Change teams, get the objective done, extend the timer and then proceed to totally stomp the defending team.

It’s usually pretty funny too, because when you were on defenders they had no problem stomping telling the attackers to shut up when the call a shuffle vote, but when you change and start stomping them in return it’s “omg these teams” “wtf is this balance” “pls vote yes shuffle pls”

[Szakalot]

@Watsyurdeal its pubs man, there is no teamwork.

its that simple: THERE IS NO TEAMWORK ON PUBS. the only thing that there is is better players and worse players. how are you going to tell a good teamplayer to ‘get more teamplay’ when they are stuck with bad (team)players? is it their fault they are stuck with bad players?

SURELY balancing teams by ensuring good proportions of good/bad teamplay and good/bad aim is possible.

let me repeat it: it is not bad teamplayers choice to have no teamplay, any more than it is the choice of bad aimers not to be able to hit shit

[Jostabeere]

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;213618”]I don’t see the point in switching, often times I switch and become the teams carry on either side, because too many people play in a passive manner and don’t push up. That or they don’t stick together so well or watch out for each other.

Pretty much the only thing that stops me is having to fight 3 v 1’s, and that is an issue of team work, you will NEVER solve this with matchmaking, it’s people and how they play is the issue.

Forcing a square peg into a round hold is just going to ruin things.[/quote]

The difference between 3vs1 because your team don’t push with you, can’t be fixed. But the issue of 3vs1 when you simply have no teammates can be fixed.

[watsyurdeal]

[quote=“Szakalot;213643”]@Watsyurdeal its pubs man, there is no teamwork.

its that simple: THERE IS NO TEAMWORK ON PUBS. the only thing that there is is better players and worse players. how are you going to tell a good teamplayer to ‘get more teamplay’ when they are stuck with bad (team)players? is it their fault they are stuck with bad players?

SURELY balancing teams by ensuring good proportions of good/bad teamplay and good/bad aim is possible.

let me repeat it: it is not bad teamplayers choice to have no teamplay, any more than it is the choice of bad aimers not to be able to hit @$!#[/quote]

And what exactly is sorting people by their aim and average kda going to do? Stacking, that’s it.

People who aren’t contributing are basically going to be fodder, and people who do well get sorted. Why are they doing well? Coincidence? Luck? Actual ability? Who knows, but a system like this would not possibly be able to quantify skill without a long track record or history of the player. And if you’re going to make a system like that this game might as well just be Ranked only.

[quote=“Jostabeere;213653”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;213618”]I don’t see the point in switching, often times I switch and become the teams carry on either side, because too many people play in a passive manner and don’t push up. That or they don’t stick together so well or watch out for each other.

Pretty much the only thing that stops me is having to fight 3 v 1’s, and that is an issue of team work, you will NEVER solve this with matchmaking, it’s people and how they play is the issue.

Forcing a square peg into a round hold is just going to ruin things.[/quote]

The difference between 3vs1 because your team don’t push with you, can’t be fixed. But the issue of 3vs1 when you simply have no teammates can be fixed.[/quote]

So in other words a balance of numbers, such as 5 v 2 players, 7 total players on a server.

Fair enough, but just because they are there doesn’t mean they contribute. You can have a full team of 8 players but only 3 may actually do something useful.

[DirtyDav]

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;213654”]And what exactly is sorting people by their aim and average kda going to do? Stacking, that’s it.

People who aren’t contributing are basically going to be fodder, and people who do well get sorted. Why are they doing well? Coincidence? Luck? Actual ability? Who knows, but a system like this would not possibly be able to quantify skill without a long track record or history of the player. And if you’re going to make a system like that this game might as well just be Ranked only.[/quote]

You know that argument, “LEVEL DOESN’T MEAN ANYTHING!” that you hear a lot around DB? BS imo. It’s not that it means nothing; it means that someone with level, say, 76, has played a shitton longer than someone at level 27 (excepting smurfs and the like, mind you), and so they inherently have more experience with the game.

That having been said, I personally think that the shuffling algorithm ought to be based primarily around levels rather than one’s kda/etc.; maybe it could sort the players by level, descending, and go down the list alternating which ones go on which team?

Now, ik you’re saying some people, high level or not, won’t be trying and shit, but let me put it this way: you see a team with a bunch of players level 60+. The opposing team is all <30. I know there’s lots of people who come from different FPS’s and, as a result, are better than their average level, but generally speaking the result is a steamroll in favor of the higher levels. Just my experience, and the results are very much understandable, I think.

I think that, if they were based on level, overall shuffling would be substantially more effective. There would undoubtedly be instances in which it turns out to be unnecessary (I don’t know whether there’s any way to avoid it from being abused, honestly, because you’ll always have nubs who think they’re the best at the game and that think they are just greatly disadvantaged), and certainly there’d be times when it is actually detrimental to team balance, but I think on average, it would work a hella better than the random shit the algorithm employs now.

As for forced shuffling…well, I don’t think that should be a thing. I think maybe the required vote for shuffle should be lowered a bit in the case where one team greatly outnumbers the other, but forcing it could bring unexpected side-effects. Maybe the minority team is still more OP than the bigger one, in which case a shuffle would greatly fuck things out of proportion (not something you see often, ofc, but it does happen…). Or maybe the game’s almost over and half the losing team ragequitted; if a shuffle passes, and some of the would-be winners are placed on the other team, well…that’d just be annoying af.

TL;DR: I don’t think there should be a such thing as “automatic shuffling”, however, I do believe the current shuffling algorithm requires improvement; preferably, in my opinion, basing itself off of levels.

Just my 2 cents. Also, my first forum post, hope it’s not too salty

[watsyurdeal]

My point is we can keep beating this dead horse for another year, but the problem isn’t so much the algorithm, as it is the individual players. And them expecting the Devs to solve their issue for them, which is they lack coordination, teamwork, or ability.

These are all things YOU control as a player, if you can’t fix these then you should just quit now. That’s all I’m saying, cause I keep calling it, saying the nothing will change with these new matchmaking improvements, and every time STILL people complain about the games being unbalanced.

I know people are sick of this but it is so damn relevant

[DirtyDav]

Yeah, many members of the community can be toxic/salty/assholes and, that aside, just plain bad at the game. But that sort of thing plagues any game, really, and I don’t think that’s something anyone can change, lol.

So, once again, if not an absolute fix, I think at the very least changing the shuffling system (given the criteria I listed in my above post) would alleviate some of the “toxicity”, so to speak. It’d certainly be a good first step, wouldn’t you agree?

[Nail]

no

[DirtyDav]

no

k thanks for the in-depth explanation

If it makes a difference, I personally don’t really care much about how the team balance is for me; I sorta just play and make do if we’re getting our asses pwned. But I think I speak for a great percentage of the community when I say that shuffling is shit as it stands right now. I know lots of people who have quit the game on behalf of that alone.

[GatoCommodore]

@r2dav2

one of my friend told to level up since level 1 with only playing Aura and play on stopwatch
in 4 weeks he didnt spend any of the credits earned, only using the free gold card for aura
and hes now level 32 with only 40+ kills and no other merc unlocked

mind you hes not a smurf and first time playing DB

you wanna sort out server with Level?
because i know a dozen people who level up like that just for the “fun”

[DirtyDav]

Then you know a dozen more people than I do that do that. Might just be my experience, but still…

I think at least on average it would be pretty fair. And if your friend is just playing aura with heals, even if he has only gotten 40 kills, at least he’s being somewhat useful in matches? Aura’s tend to be a life-saver for me frequently.

I’m going to stress it again: on average. Like, I think most cases would benefit from it. It would have to be better than what it is now…you have to agree it’s shit as it is, right? Just yesterday, I was playing a match (an absolute steamroll in the defense’s favor) where there was a shuffle 3 times. The teams pretty much stayed exactly the same each time, except for maybe a single person.

…also, 4 weeks? That’s pretty goddamn impressive, even with aura lmao. I play on average 4 hours a day, maybe 5 days a week, takes about 8 hours for me to level or so…I say props to this guy

[Xenithos]

I’m going to stress it again: on average. Like, I think most cases would benefit from it. It would have to be better than what it is now…you have to agree it’s @$!# as it is, right? Just yesterday, I was playing a match (an absolute steamroll in the defense’s favor) where there was a shuffle 3 times. The teams pretty much stayed exactly the same each time, except for maybe a single person.

Number one, dang this post is active recently. Number two: an on-average approach is always a bad one Dave. Also, you cannot EVER force balancing in a game that’s this crazy like DB. Tell me, with all the matches you’ve played with me, am I ever the same skill level? Like, JUST ME?

If the devs are going to do any kind of forced balancing, It’ll be with their little pet project “casual matchmaking” and it’ll be ELO based. It will take EVERYTHING into account. I don’t care how high of a level you are, you can still suck…

[DirtyDav]

[quote=“Xenithos;213682”][quote=“r2dav2;213676”]
I’m going to stress it again: on average. Like, I think most cases would benefit from it. It would have to be better than what it is now…you have to agree it’s @$!# as it is, right? Just yesterday, I was playing a match (an absolute steamroll in the defense’s favor) where there was a shuffle 3 times. The teams pretty much stayed exactly the same each time, except for maybe a single person.
[/quote]

Number one, dang this post is active recently. Number two: an on-average approach is always a bad one Dave. Also, you cannot EVER force balancing in a game that’s this crazy like DB. Tell me, with all the matches you’ve played with me, am I ever the same skill level? Like, JUST ME?

If the devs are going to do any kind of forced balancing, It’ll be with their little pet project “casual matchmaking” and it’ll be ELO based. It will take EVERYTHING into account. I don’t care how high of a level you are, you can still suck…
[/quote]

You’re an exception <333 jk tho Srsly, you’re still gonna beat the shit out of your typical, everyday level 10 proxy nub who bunnyhops all day with his shotty out, whether you are or aren’t really actually trying. They might be a pain in the ass, land a few annoying af kills, but most aren’t really talented (yet) to go, say, 30/5 by the end of the match. They generally end up breaking even or just above, from my experience.

I mean it; experience counts for a lot, and even though level isn’t even necessarily always an indicator of that, it usually is.

As for forcing balancing, I agree: it’s a bad idea, it couldn’t ever really work. But a mutual agreement for a shuffle ought to work better than it does at present. I can’t think of a better means to measure how it ought to be done really than level.

Let me put it this way: At first glance, I’d prefer having someone on my team who’s level 80 and isn’t really trying very hard at the moment over someone who’s level 10, details about whether he’s a smurf or happens to be an FPS master unknown. You know for certain that the 80 has at least a good bit of time invested into the game and so is, in all probability, probably pretty decent.

Remember, though, I’m not saying this is necessarily the best method, I’m just saying it’s got to be a hell of a lot better than it is now. As it currently stands, I don’t even think vote shuffles should exist, they’re that bad.

[Dawnlazy]

[quote=“r2dav2;213658”]
You know that argument, “LEVEL DOESN’T MEAN ANYTHING!” that you hear a lot around DB? BS imo. It’s not that it means nothing; it means that someone with level, say, 76, has played a shitton longer than someone at level 27 (excepting smurfs and the like, mind you), and so they inherently have more experience with the game.[/quote]

There are people past level 100 that are frankly just… bad. Not even average pub player level, just flat out bad and rarely a useful asset to their team.

[DirtyDav]

[quote=“Dawnrazor;213700”][quote=“r2dav2;213658”]
You know that argument, “LEVEL DOESN’T MEAN ANYTHING!” that you hear a lot around DB? BS imo. It’s not that it means nothing; it means that someone with level, say, 76, has played a shitton longer than someone at level 27 (excepting smurfs and the like, mind you), and so they inherently have more experience with the game.[/quote]

There are people past level 100 that are frankly just… bad. Not even average pub player level, just flat out bad and rarely a useful asset to their team.[/quote]

I mean, yeah, definitely, but not most. I don’t think so, anyway.

[doxjq]

It’s pointless even discussing the topic of balancing players by skill if casual matchmaking ever comes out any way.

Undoubtedly many good players are going to queue up together (most likely even proper teams of 5 + 1 good player) who are just going to stomp every match, and it isn’t always because they just want to win, or want an easy win, but mostly just because they enjoy playing with their friends or they will use it as a chance to practice together since ranked is dead.

It’s just how it is, and there’s nothing you’ll be able to do about it. Shuffling by skill will be completely irrelevant when they introduce 6 man parties to public servers, because you’re not going to be able to shuffle teams in CMM if I recall correctly. Sounds reasonable imo, since it kind of defeats the purpose of partying up if you can be split up mid game any way.

You might argue those teams should only be matched up with people of similar skill, but if I recall correctly they did say CMM is going to be very leniant on skill if it has to be, since the player base is too small to completely split everyone up - Some people would never find games if the gap was too big.

[Dawnlazy]

[quote=“Dox;213716”]It’s pointless even discussing the topic of balancing players by skill if casual matchmaking ever comes out any way.

Undoubtedly many good players are going to queue up together (most likely even proper teams of 5 + 1 good player) who are just going to stomp every match, and it isn’t always because they just want to win, or want an easy win, but mostly just because they enjoy playing with their friends or they will use it as a chance to practice together since ranked is dead.

It’s just how it is, and there’s nothing you’ll be able to do about it. Shuffling by skill will be completely irrelevant when they introduce 6 man parties to public servers, because you’re not going to be able to shuffle teams in CMM if I recall correctly. Sounds reasonable imo, since it kind of defeats the purpose of partying up if you can be split up mid game any way.

You might argue those teams should only be matched up with people of similar skill, but if I recall correctly they did say CMM is going to be very leniant on skill if it has to be, since the player base is too small to completely split everyone up - Some people would never find games if the gap was too big. [/quote]

Yeah it’s going to be pretty bad. At this point pretty much everyone who is good knows each other and has most of the good players in their Steam friends list, some crazy stacking is going to happen. Which is one of the main reasons why I just want private servers, I mean we have DBN where we play a lot but I mean the kind of open pub server you see on the main server list from which you can just drop in/drop out but most everyone who plays there knows each other, there’s a sense of community, usually an admin or two around who can help solve issues, and since I’m already fantasizing, why not, custom game content like mods and maps.

This kind of server is what I grew up playing in games like Unreal Tournament or the first Unreal, it made things really fun and involving. “Matchmaking” arrangements have never managed to be as good and never will.