We have buffs... But...


(L00fah) #1

(I literally copied and pasted this from my post on the Bethesda forums. I did NOT run a search, so I am sorry if this was posted twice and if it’s closed, I understand. It’s late and I’m lazy right now… :stuck_out_tongue:
I had some pretty positive feedback over there, I just wanted to see what the majority of the player-base though over here. If you have any criticism, PLEASE VOICE IT! I want to understand where you’re coming from, rebuttal your issues or find a way to compromise in some manner. I hope you guys like this.)

Alright, so I was watching some Brink videos and considering hopping on for a bit and it dawned on me… THREE of our classes have buffs for their team mates but not one has any form of debuff.
A lot of you might not care about this, but I’m a pretty big believer of debuffs (from my love of MMOs and the likes).

We have THREE classes (Medic, Engineer and Operative) that can utilize debuffs and have it make sense. Now, to an extent we DO have debuffs, like flashbangs and EMP grenades… But we don’t have anymore than that…
I think it’d be interesting to have a ton of other abilities that directly affect the effectiveness of an enemy… I’ve only come up with a few, some of which have been discussed here and what’s-not… So I’m just going to list them here.
Keep in mind, some of these may not make much sense at first… But I thought of these skills in particular to add more versatility to our classes. It would offer up more skills, therefore, we can change our roles on the fly… And with more skills and different uses, certain un-used classes will see new life… At least that’s my hope.
Also, Debuffs are just awesome… I LOVE shutdown classes. I also want to see what you guys think and what ideas you can all come up with, if the idea sticks.

STAAAAARTIIIIING… NOW!

Medic: Perhaps the most capable of delivering some heavy debuffs… Directly affecting the overall health or well-being of an enemy, but also requiring the most risk in using close-range tactics. However, my problem here is that it’d be USELESS against bots (damn psychics) and I strongly disagree with the medics having grenade based skills.
Poisons - They fill their syringes with some kind of poison that slowly drains away at the enemy’s health, causing subtle damage over time (DoT)… I think to counteract this, the player need only be healed.
Health Pip Removal - Through the use of some kind of scanner or otherwise, the Medic is able to detect what enemies on the battlefield have received extra health pips from SOME manner… Through this, they’re able to approach the enemy, however possible, and essentially remove the pips, thus weakening the target.
Health Sapping Beacons (TERRIBLE name, I know) - These stations effectively leech health from any enemy that passes through them, the longer they sit in its range, the more health they lose. You could place this at objectives, making the medic even more defensive and useful… It’d be interesting to see an “end-use” that scatters health pips to allies in the area, or something to that effect.
Some kind of ability that leeches health from enemies and gives it to the medic… Something like that… It’d be cool to see medics have more overall survivability and actual combat utility.

Soldier: The soldier, I think, should be the least effective with debuffs… So I couldn’t think of much…
Stun Grenades - These little things act a lot like flashbangs, but rather than obscuring vision, they are able to stop (or DRAMATICALLY decrease) the movement of enemies… Including their aiming. I would expect it to have a VERY narrow range so it can’t shut down a whole room at once… And like the flashbang, it has some recoil if your allies are too close to it.
Ammo sabotage? - This makes the LEAST sense to me, but I figured I’d toss it out there… Basically, the Soldier is able to throw one pack of fake ammo every now and again to an enemy, so upon their next reload their weapons deal either less damage, or no damage. This lasts for ONE clip (reload and it’s gone). I don’t know why anyone would accept ammo from their enemy… Maybe he slipped it in his pack or something.
Tripwire [Suggested by Crytiqal] - S strategically placed wire. Effect has yet to be established.

Engineer: EDIT: YAY IDEAS!
Command Post Sabotage [Crytiqal and wolfnemesis75] - Engineer traps the CP so either the enemy cannot receive ammo from it or it damages them lightly. (If it matters, I favor the lack of ammo).

Operative: (Best for last, I love me some Operative.) The Operative’s class seems to make the most sense in terms of debuffing… They already specialize in causing sheer chaos and disruption, but I would like to see this expanded on… Perhaps there guys are the most capable…?
Some kind of weapon sabotage - At first I thought this made more sense on the Engineer, but I think it fits more with the Operative’s theme… He specializes in sabotage and the likes. I don’t know how he would do it, but ultimately he either makes a gun completely useless (just one gun, not both) for a very short time or weakens the damage it does. Another cool idea, an alternative, is that is causes the gun to overheat and damage the user a little after a certain number of shots. Perhaps that should be its own skill?
A buff removal tool - It’d be interesting to see them use some kind of item that removes buffs on a specific target. Much like the Medic’s health-buff removal. I don’t know, it may be unfair for two classes to have something like this.
Bolas - These little bastards could finally tie up those pesky lights… They’d be a quick one use thing that would have to hit a target and immediately slow down ONE guy for a short period of time. It’d be great for those of us playing mediums and heavies to have SOME weapon against the lights. Either a bolas, or some kind of trap we lay down. It’s more immediate than the caltrops, deals little-to-no damage and affects only one target.
Stungun/tazer/etc. - Something that could completely stun a character for just an instant… Maybe it’s used as a weapon or a quick get away. The stun is only a split second, something less than one second, but it can mean the difference between life and death. Again, this only affects one enemy.
Mine hacking - We already have an effective turret control, but I would like to see something with the mines. The mines use a friend/foe program that determines whether or not to blow up (at least I would assume)… It’d be cool if Ops could hack that and turn the mine against their enemies. This would officially make the Op the Engineer’s rival and nemesis. This is an indirect debuff.
Turret sabotage - Someone else suggested this awhile back, I can’t remember who (I THINK it was Chaos) and it sounded nifty once he explained it. Basically, rather than hacking a turret or otherwise, you’d instead set up a booby trap on it… So when an ally approaches it (I assume to repair it), it detonates. This is less a debuff, though.
Corpse Sabotage - Perhaps this is too macabre, but I like the idea… Two classes in the game have access to bodies in this game and it’d be interesting to see more done with them. I can’t think of what it would do, but I like the idea. Maybe the Op places a proximity mine that sets off a bomb with a short fuse under a body… It obviously goes away once the body disappears… So it’s got a limited use. I’m not sure what else to think of for this.


(Spendlove) #2

I am a yes. I had an idea for an debuff nade that strips away anyone in the explosions medical buffs. This was specifically aimed at a medic.


(L00fah) #3

Nice. I’m glad to see some positive feedback already. I look forward to seeing more feedback when the forums are more active. :smiley:


(Crytiqal) #4

Why would a medic risk his life sneaking up to someone to give him a debuff that slowly drains the enemies health? (The poison needle)?
By the time he gets behind the enemy and poisons him he could already have shot him to dead with much less risk…


(DarkangelUK) #5

[QUOTE=Crytiqal;376062]Why would a medic risk his life sneaking up to someone to give him a debuff that slowly drains the enemies health? (The poison needle)?
By the time he gets behind the enemy and poisons him he could already have shot him to dead with much less risk…[/QUOTE]
My thoughts exactly, what’s the point in impeding the enemy when killing them is a much better option? I can see the point of maybe creating an area denial option, so instead of the healing station deployed by the medic, you deployed something that zapped energy when walked through making that route less desirable without having to commit a player to covering that route, but debuff seems like a low reward for the same amount of effort (maybe even more) required to kill.


(Dormamu) #6
  • Poison - use Pyro mines/Napalm grenades;
  • Health pip removal - capture the health CP;
  • Health Sapping Beacons - Pyro mines/Napalm grenades;
  • Stun Grenades - Lobster, Underslung GL, EZ-Nade;
  • Ammo sabotage - kill the soldier.
  • etc.

PS. best debuff in Brink is “Point=>Shoot=>Pray=>Kill” you need to pray to the Founders Fathers to grant you the strength to stay still, while crouching (to lower the spread, even if your body wants to strafe jump), pray to guide your bullets to your enemy (and not let them play /roll every time they exit your weapon), Pray to not encounter another light with a Carb ( even tho you are a light with a Carb), Pray that you will not need Auto-balance teams (you really bounded with your 7 bots, everyone else abandoned the boat, Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, a Disney porn tale).
Before we make it more MMO, let’s try first, to make it more “FPS”. :smiley:


(tokamak) #7

The flashbang is a debuff.

But yes I would love to see more. Tear gas needs to be in there.


(H0RSE) #8

The Operative should be the primary debuffing class, since it is already the only class that cannot buff teammates. Just build upon what is already there.


(wolfnemesis75) #9

Yeah. Operative could hand out blank rounds while in disguise. Stuff like that. Poison someone disguised as a medic. :slight_smile:


(DarkangelUK) #10

I like the idea of Operative debuffs being context sensitive, so an Op disguised as a medic poisons someone (throw a cyanide injection to a downed enemy thinking they’re gonna revive themselves), sabotaging enemy guns as engineer etc.


(wolfnemesis75) #11

[QUOTE=DarkangelUK;376108]I like the idea of Operative debuffs being context sensitive, so a Op disguised as a medic poisons someone (throw a cyanide injection to a downed enemy thinking they’re gonna revive themselves), sabotaging enemy guns as engineer etc.[/QUOTE]One reason why this may not be in the game is because you can’t REFUSE buffs from a teammate? So, if an Disguised Operative offered you a poison revive as an example, that’d work because you have a choice whether or not to use it, but blank rounds could be a bit frustrating. Just pointing out the cons, but I still think it would be interesting if Operative had some of these debuffs.


(Crytiqal) #12

It could make it temporary tho.

Your gun gets temporarily jammed by an engineer debuff, or some false ammo for maybe 5 seconds? When you are in your next firefight.
This would make them think who gave them their last buff and pay attention to that same guy next time to kill him?

It wouldnt make the debuff overpowered but would have an effect on the enemy, like mines have the same effect.


(L00fah) #13

[QUOTE=Crytiqal;376062]Why would a medic risk his life sneaking up to someone to give him a debuff that slowly drains the enemies health? (The poison needle)?
By the time he gets behind the enemy and poisons him he could already have shot him to dead with much less risk…[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Dormamu;376070]- Poison - use Pyro mines/Napalm grenades;

  • Health pip removal - capture the health CP;
  • Health Sapping Beacons - Pyro mines/Napalm grenades;
  • Stun Grenades - Lobster, Underslung GL, EZ-Nade;
  • Ammo sabotage - kill the soldier.
  • etc.

PS. best debuff in Brink is “Point=>Shoot=>Pray=>Kill” you need to pray to the Founders Fathers to grant you the strength to stay still, while crouching (to lower the spread, even if your body wants to strafe jump), pray to guide your bullets to your enemy (and not let them play /roll every time they exit your weapon), Pray to not encounter another light with a Carb ( even tho you are a light with a Carb), Pray that you will not need Auto-balance teams (you really bounded with your 7 bots, everyone else abandoned the boat, Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, a Disney porn tale).
Before we make it more MMO, let’s try first, to make it more “FPS”. :D[/QUOTE]

To reply to all three of you; as stated multiple times - it’s to add variation to overall gameplay (the game’s main selling point is “freedom”) and offer up a situational advantage (similarly to the buffs). As I’ve said countless times, these ideas are simply ideas - not solid THIS IS THE ONLY WAY, the arguments about the Medic getting up close are kind of null and void. If you don’t want him getting too close, help me think of another way to accomplish the same goal.
I’m sorry, but there are a LOT of times in-game where “spray and pray” isn’t enough for the job and sometimes you need a little something else (hence the buffs again) and sometimes, even THAT isn’t enough. One thing I’ve learned from playing RPGs (not MMOs, which is a broad “genre” that covers nearly every other genre we know) is that sometimes it’s best to cut your losses, give your TEAM the advantage and retreat if you can. You cannot win EVERY battle with purely bullets… This game is far more tactical than that and adding debuffs simply offers another layer to combat. I’m not saying, “if you have the chance to kill someone and win the battle - DON’T YOU HAVE DEBUFFS!” I’m suggesting exactly what a debuff is FOR - the times when you need an extra advantage to pull out that victory. that’s basic logic there.
It baffles me when people are in full support of buffs, but knock the idea of debuffs… Sorry, this game is already a FPS/RPG hybrid, adding in new abilities isn’t going to make it anymore of either genre… Nor will anymore guns or, what-have-you.

As well, none of what you listed, Dormamu, are debuffs. They are purely straight-damaging and direct approaches - the opposite of most debuffs. The command-post argument I get, but that doesn’t affect buffs received from Medic buffing.

I was expecting a bit more thought behind the criticism, not simply “KILLING = DEBUFF!!” because that isn’t the case. And you should know that by now… This isn’t meant to sound so aggressive, it’s just annoying that my only negative feedback has been something so blatantly willing to ignore the main point.

[QUOTE=tokamak;376074]The flashbang is a debuff.

But yes I would love to see more. Tear gas needs to be in there.[/QUOTE]
I thought I briefly mentioned the flashbang, it was brought up temporarily somewhere in the Bethesda forums where I first brought this up. My bad. It’s KIND of a debuff. But yeah, same crap. :stuck_out_tongue:

I agree and disagree. It fits most with the Operative’s concept, but I would like to see more to the other classes too. That’s why I try to come up with debuffs for them too. If we give the Operative, exclusively, debuffs - that gives him way more tools at his disposal than the other classes.

The “blanks” idea seems more like a soldier to me.
I think all the debuffs should primarily come from the class that has the most expertise with the origin of the debuff (Health = Medic, Weapons/Ammo = Soldier, Mechanics = Engineer, Stealth = Operative).


(wolfnemesis75) #14

Nah. Anyone can hand out a blank, just pick them up from the ground. And an Operative is savvy like that. :wink:


(L00fah) #15

Double post because you guys ninja’d me…

[QUOTE=Crytiqal;376115]It could make it temporary tho.

Your gun gets temporarily jammed by an engineer debuff, or some false ammo for maybe 5 seconds? When you are in your next firefight.
This would make them think who gave them their last buff and pay attention to that same guy next time to kill him?

It wouldnt make the debuff overpowered but would have an effect on the enemy, like mines have the same effect.[/QUOTE]

I have a few arguments, one of which is listed above - LIST TIME;

  1. What Crytiqal said. ALL debuffs would be temporary. The obviously POTENT ones (like the blanks offered above as an example) would only last for a set TIME or until the use of it is expended (like a clip, or a few shots, for the blanks - whichever balances out easier). My ideas aren’t to balance them, just get the ideas out there.
  2. The point of a debuff IS to be frustrating. When you’re in the heat of combat and someone throws in a flashbang on you, does that make you smile? :stuck_out_tongue: Think of it that way.
  3. I have never played a game featuring debuffs where you’ve had the option to deny them… That’s sort of the point. It’s part of a “denial” or “shutdown” tactic (one I have seen, to extent, in this game). If you can shut down their resources, or nullify them, you’re offered a distinct advantage. Yes, there are other ways to go about that ends (such as simply killing the buffers/healers), but sometimes that isn’t an option and the best way is to weaken them as a whole.
    See my point? :stuck_out_tongue:

Keep in mind, the DELIVERY is PURELY an idea I had, not how it would HAVE to come out. If you guys can help think of better deliveries and still maintain the idea of debuffs, feel free. I am more than open to that.

EDIT: (to wolfnemesis) You’re missing the point. The Operative would be waaaaay over-powered if given ALL the debuffs. I still maintain that EVERY class should be given debuffs based on their abilities. Yes, the Operative should certainly be the biggest threat WITH debuffs, but he shouldn’t be the only one with them.
That adds layer of play to only ONE class and offers NO variety to other classes.
And it’s near game-breaking, in terms of balancing. You wouldn’t have nearly any other reason to play anything but Operative and Medic.


(SinDonor) #16

I concur…


(Crytiqal) #17

Why would a soldier on my team want to hand out blank ammo rounds to me?
Where is the logic in that?

Wolfnemesis was talking about an operative in diguise as a soldier.

You forget the fact that buffs are handed out by your TEAM mates (which is safe to hand out) while debuffs would need to be handed out by the enemy which would expose themselves right in front of all the enemies in your team. Who would do that?

I think debuffs should be done by ops in disguise, for example:

When Ops is disguised as soldier: Hand out blank ammo rounds (which will come in effect when the person loads his blank ammo clip)
When Ops is disguised as engineer: Make the gun randomly jam (for 5 seconds, when a player is in a firefight)
When Ops is disguised as medic: Poison(gib) players instead of buff them (works kinda like a sticky bomb)
When Ops is disguised as Ops: —

This could all fall under 1 ability upgrade: “Enemy skill” or something and you would only need to use 1 button which will work for all the classes depending what class you are disguisedd as at that time. (More functions for the F key, why the F not?)

Then it would also become a valid tactic to pick your person you want to disguise as…


(Cep) #18

I like the idea of the operative having a chemical grenade or virus bomb that either eats your health until a medic buffs you or strips your health based buffs.

Maybe an acid bomb to remove weapon/armour buffs?


(wolfnemesis75) #19

[QUOTE=Crytiqal;376128]Why would a soldier on my team want to hand out blank ammo rounds to me?
Where is the logic in that?

Wolfnemesis was talking about an operative in diguise as a soldier.

You forget the fact that buffs are handed out by your TEAM mates (which is safe to hand out) while debuffs would need to be handed out by the enemy which would expose themselves right in front of all the enemies in your team. Who would do that?

I think debuffs should be done by ops in disguise, for example:

When Ops is disguised as soldier: Hand out blank ammo rounds (which will come in effect when the person loads his blank ammo clip)
When Ops is disguised as engineer: Make the gun randomly jam (for 5 seconds, when a player is in a firefight)
When Ops is disguised as medic: Poison players instead of buff them (works kinda like a sticky bomb)
When Ops is disguised as Ops: —

This could all fall under 1 ability upgrade: “Enemy skill” or something and you would only need to use 1 button which will work for all the classes depending what class you are disguisedd as at that time. (More functions for the F key, why the F not?)

Then it would also become a valid tactic to pick your person you want to disguise as…[/QUOTE]+1 This is where I’d like to see a debuff implemented as well like Crytiqal is talking about makes sense within the framework of the game. Operative has no current buffs and he’s designed as the diversionary/hacking/frustrate the enemy class. That’s where a debuff would make good sense.


(L00fah) #20

[QUOTE=Crytiqal;376128]Why would a soldier on my team want to hand out blank ammo rounds to me?
Where is the logic in that?

Wolfnemesis was talking about an operative in diguise as a soldier.

You forget the fact that buffs are handed out by your TEAM mates (which is safe to hand out) while debuffs would need to be handed out by the enemy which would expose themselves right in front of all the enemies in your team. Who would do that?

I think debuffs should be done by ops in disguise, for example:

When Ops is disguised as soldier: Hand out blank ammo rounds (which will come in effect when the person loads his blank ammo clip)
When Ops is disguised as engineer: Make the gun randomly jam (for 5 seconds, when a player is in a firefight)
When Ops is disguised as medic: Poison(gib) players instead of buff them (works kinda like a sticky bomb)
When Ops is disguised as Ops: —

This could all fall under 1 ability upgrade: “Enemy skill” or something and you would only need to use 1 button which will work for all the classes depending what class you are disguisedd as at that time. (More functions for the F key, why the F not?)

Then it would also become a valid tactic to pick your person you want to disguise as…[/QUOTE]

Um I’m not sure where you got that assumption from. I understood completely what you were getting at and I never said your team should debuff YOU. That is the complete opposite of the point.
Yes, debuffs should be context related, yes, the Operative should have some of the best debuffs, but I don’t think he should be the only one. I also see that being a HUGE pain in the neck for programming (that’s A LOT of context involved to program for the Operative). I am absolutely confused how you assumed I meant your team debuffs you…

Again, my main argument for NOT giving ALL the debuffs to the Operative is simply because it lacks variety for overall gameplay.
That isn’t to say I dislike your ideas or the concept behind them… I just don’t think he should be the only one.

Disguised debuffs are a genius idea, especially given the context idea, but it’s hard to implement and unfair. He shouldn’t, essentially, get four skills for spending one point.

You do bring up a GREAt point I had forgotten (embarrassing considering I specialize with the Operative in-game) - the Operative has NO buffs.
Would it be a fair compromise to suggest he has the MOST debuffs (and possibly most potent)? I still support the other classes (with varying degrees) having debuffs.
Honestly, Medic and Operative are the only two that I think really justify having debuffs… Soldiers I can only think of a few (like… Three, two of which are 'nades) and the Engineer I haven’t been able to think of anything.

[QUOTE=Cep;376129]I like the idea of the operative having a chemical grenade or virus bomb that either eats your health until a medic buffs you or strips your health based buffs.

Maybe an acid bomb to remove weapon/armour buffs?[/QUOTE]

That’s not a bad idea. I was thinking something in terms of mustard gas when you brought this up. I think an acid bomb is too far’fetched though and should probably just stick with sabotage there. :stuck_out_tongue: