Vassili in the wrong hands... an idea at a merc tree progression.

[Lumi]

@turnfalken

My point is exactly that all I do is play for others. If there is no medic, you’ll see me jump in. If there is no engineer, I’ll be using one. Hell, how many times have I been repairing the EV with a medic since nobody cared to play neither medic nor engineer.

I’ve communicated more knowledge from the game to others than anyone else I’ve been in a match with. Things like only one person repairing at once works, or the fact that generators can be destroyed by explosives rather than only planting, or that charging your defibs provides more health to people, or even teaching basics such as dropping ammo to a skyhammer because that person couldn’t be bothered to do the tutorial and more, the list goes on.

So don’t try to say I don’t play for others because that’s all people expect from me when they see my high level. Seriously, I can’t remember how many times I have done the social experiment of not repairing the EV, to see if someone would do it. And the game would go on for 5 or 10 more minutes without the repair progression bar moving.

My issue is not that people don’t play the way I want. My issue is that people are constantly playing Team Death Match in a game that clearly has other mechanics than only shooting and killing. Now, while we are on this subject, I’ve always said that a credit bonus for best medic and best engineer of each team should be given at the end of matches. To motivate other gameplay than just shooting and killing. Because the mission incentives are just not enough.

The issue overall, and that people don’t get, is that if you’re not going to play objective or medic centred, and if you are going for a simple TDM approach, the amount of kills you need to do to be helping your team needs to be high and consistent. It’s very hard to do so as a sniper. And even high level Vassili players struggle to do so. I rarely see a Vassili at the top of the scoreboard.

In the end, you cannot blame me for expecting people to play for the team in a team based multiplayer game. And players fail to see that repairing and healing is a much easier and much more effective way to help your team. Heck, when playing CS or CoD, if you lack aim, you’re screwed and basically useless. DB actually offers different skill based players a real opportunity to shine. And players still spit on it, the worst way possible.

So yeah. I’m getting tired of being a one man army player, trying to revive, give health, kill, plant, defuse and repair all at the same time, so that my teammates can have the pleasure of camping their little corner and get one kill every 5 deaths. Allowing an easy and early access to Vassili for newcomers only favours that practice. This is why something should be done to limit it. I’m not saying this is my best idea as to how to solve it, but I’ve explained many others during the past months. It shall be implemented or not to the devs discretion. I just hope they realize and acknowledge the issue.

And btw, this game actually takes into account, score-wise, the amount of repairs you do, the amount of health given etc. You know the thing called game mode experience and support experience? It even gives you XP for taking damage when an close by ally is delivering an objective.

[Lumi]

[quote=“DMaster2;97802”]Why are you making real life comparison to a purchase choice in a friggin video game? No one is going to die if you purchase Vassili instead of Proxy, at worst you may have a sitting duck in a pub team (at best it’s on the other team).
And the fact that a lot of people pick Vas as first purchase is an issue how exactly? Also DB ultimate starter pack has it so everyone that will download the game and purchase it will have it, so it’s only natural they’ll try it.
I find nothing wrong with people playing what they want to. That is also why i utterly hate when ass*oles starts a vote kick just because a low level player is playing badly (but trying to help). Let them be and let them do the mistakes so they can learn in a natural way. Back when i started i did the most basic thing you shouldn’t do when you start an account, purchasing equiment cases instead of saving credits for mercs. I purchased 4-5 cases then i learned my mistake after my fifth consecutive lead.[/quote]

Because the people purchasing things in a game are still real people. So real life logic still applies to them.

And when have badly playing players tried to help? I’ve seen a couple. Those are now my friends and I play with them regularly as they started out with a genuine feeling of trying to help the team instead of doing whatever they wanted. I have nothing against those people. But 99% of useless players, have no wish to learn and do not care about the others. Those are the problem.

[kopyright]

Totally dislike the idea. I don’t see why anybody would want to unlock the permission to actually spend ingame (or real) money on a merc.

I can see where you are coming from but it only adresses your own personal gripe with unskilled Vassili players. What if somebody is a great sniper but sucks at playing support classes? Some people might argue that snipers just sit around and shoot from the safety of their hiding place and playing a good medic requires a lot more skill instead so Aura and Sparks should be further down the progression tree.

[kopyright]

Furthermore, your premise that devs can’t patch player stupidity isn’t correct. You can always implement stupid proof mechanics.

As a professional software developer myself I can assure you that battling user stupidity is a constant arms race.

[DMaster2]

[quote=“Lumi;97811”]Because the people purchasing things in a game are still real people. So real life logic still applies to them.

And when have badly playing players tried to help? I’ve seen a couple. Those are now my friends and I play with them regularly as they started out with a genuine feeling of trying to help the team instead of doing whatever they wanted. I have nothing against those people. But 99% of useless players, have no wish to learn and do not care about the others. Those are the problem. [/quote]
That’s why i explictly said “trying to help”. I faced my fair share on new people playing Skyhammer and not dropping an ammo box (or aura and reviving) regardless of my shouting, chat, etc…
Those people are in fact useless. But you can’t rule out useless people, more of them will join each day. At least if they pick vassili they won’t be an issue and more competent players will choose to be medic/engi/fire support. I find more annoying seeing an engi/medic/fire support that don’t do objective/revive/give ammo more than a bad vassili that can’t aim.

[_retired]

Bottom line @Lumi is that the fix you are introducing won’t help the actual issue at all.

Lately I haven’t seen that many useless Vassili players as I have seen otherwise clueless under or ~10 level players who are having their own fun whatever merc they are playing or don’t even know the tactics involved in the map at all.
I simply don’t buy this solution of yours. It’s applying sugar to a recipe when salt is needed.

Personally I would favour much more something that separates man from boys or in other words those who play pubs more seriously and know what they are doing compared to those who play pubs just to have their own fun and don’t care about anything else or have no clue what they are doing.

Vaseline isn’t the problem and neither is any of the mercs even in free rotation, it’s the players who don’t spend time learning the game whatever mercs they play.

How exactly bad Vassili sitting in the corner getting just few kills and dying in the process, differs from Proxy, Skyhammer or Aura or whatever who just run to the enemy and die without repairing or giving ammo or reviving?
The issue is much much larger than “make merc x hard to get”.

Actually I rather take bad Vassili that throws out his heartbeat sensor out so I can aim and plan according to it rather than any of those above mentioned.

Example how you do teach people not everyone camp on the rock in Chapel which with one airstrike will be totally wiped out? Or in Bridge that they might have to fall back and look at all the exits so nobody sneaks in and take both drug samples? Or that you don’t get continuosly flanked on Chapel crossroads?

Max 10 servers and mode that takes teamwork and gameplaying more seriously than “I just play merc for x minutes trying out this loadout and then I leave…on Stopwatch”

There’s your problem.
With your idea ,you could take certain mercs out of bad players, but you wouldn’t take bad /newbie/noncontributing players out of the equatation.

PS.
Also I would had been pretty down if I hadn’t gotten to buy Starter pack and then Vassili. It took me bit practice but since many players probably have background in FPS just like me, it’s not impossible to be ok with almost any merc. You just don’t know the maps etc. in the beginning which again isn’t “what merc I can play” issue. Actually the faster squishy mercs with shotguns felt harder than Vassili really.

[Lumi]

[quote=“kopyright;97814”]Totally dislike the idea. I don’t see why anybody would want to unlock the permission to actually spend ingame (or real) money on a merc.

I can see where you are coming from but it only adresses your own personal gripe with unskilled Vassili players. What if somebody is a great sniper but sucks at playing support classes? Some people might argue that snipers just sit around and shoot from the safety of their hiding place and playing a good medic requires a lot more skill instead so Aura and Sparks should be further down the progression tree.[/quote]

I disagree, how does it require more skill to drop a health station as opposed to place a pixel on a moving head? That’s why sparks is just as far down the tree as Vasilli.

[quote=“kopyright;97815”]
As a professional software developer myself I can assure you that battling user stupidity is a constant arms race.[/quote]

But you still have tools to handle them no? It’s not like you just give up and call it a day.

And finally @crabbyDimension

I agree with you. There are better solutions. And I’ve proposed them before. Heck, hereforums.dirtybomb.nexon.net/discussion/comment/93313/#Comment_93313, I’ve suggested this:

[quote=“Lumi;93277”]
I believe that players should in fact be separated into boxes. Max level 11 servers and min level 12 servers. No mixing of both populations. When all players are on the same level regarding map and merc experience, only then can one hope to achieve proper balancing. Otherwise, there are experienced players who keep pushing the objectives or playing medic, while the newcomers didn’t even start to think of those things. They need time to learn. Only up to level 5 is not enough.[/quote]

And the only thing I got from it was a bashing from Amerika regarding how that was wrong.

I could pull more of the counters people have given to this idea, that I already suggested before and have always been turned down for various reasons.

Is this merc tree the best? No, I’m sure it isn’t. But as all my previous ideas had some sort of flaw, I feel the need to come up with new solutions to the same problem.

Player experience gap is a huge problem, and the Vassili issue is one visible effect of it. Many things would be solved by dividing the newcomers from the more experienced crowd. And don’t say comp, because that’s not what we need. Then again, there will always be people to destroy creative people’s ideas. And I’m done defending mine. This is it. It’s the third or fourth iteration that I proposed to the same problem, and many people haven’t even stepped forward and told what they would do. So I guess I’m done trying to save this game. I’m out of good ideas and I’m out of passion for this. too bad.

[kopyright]

I disagree, how does it require more skill to drop a health station as opposed to place a pixel on a moving head? That’s why sparks is just as far down the tree as Vasilli.

There are far more options and questions involved here. When do you drop it? Where do you drop it? When is the best moment to jump out and revive a fallen team member without putting yourself in danger?

My point is that every class requires a certain amount of skill, and just because you loathe a noob playing a merc does not mean the merc should be punished for it. Hate the player, not the game.

[quote=“Lumi;97830”][quote=“kopyright;97815”]
As a professional software developer myself I can assure you that battling user stupidity is a constant arms race.[/quote]

But you still have tools to handle them no? It’s not like you just give up and call it a day.[/quote]

No, but at the same time it’s a battle that can’t be won, and user stupidity is here to stay.

[Amerika]

[quote=“Clown;97731”]How about just remove Vassili? :neutral:

But seriously, why the fuck do people who can’t aim for shit buy him? It makes no sense to me. “I can’t even land a shot when I spray and pray, I think the sniper character is perfect for me!”[/quote]

Honestly? It’s pop culture. The loaner recon/sniper is always the tough guy who is highly skilled and willing to sacrifice in almost every single portrayal. They are idealized through media as people with hearts but they have to set aside their feelings for that “one shot, on kill” mentality and they tend to be also portrayed as mysterious/solemn. They also get to pick and choose who they kill while leaving others unscathed. So you add in a touch of a god complex for them as well. There are books and movies by the dozens portraying snipers in this manner.

So naturally a lot of people will pick that role in a video game to act out their wish fulfillment in being that type of person without actually having to be them. All this despite snipers in most games either being weak or requiring a lot more work than other classes to be skillful with in regards to helping a team.

[acrobaticBudgie]

So don’t try to say I don’t play for others because that’s all people expect from me when they see my high level.

I didn’t. I said you didn’t play for others because that’s what you’d said earlier. I have no idea what level you are, how many hours you’ve logged or anything else about your game. I don’t care either - it’s only a number.

Seriously, I can’t remember how many times I have done the social experiment of not repairing the EV, to see if someone would do it.

And I can’t remember how many times I’ve repaired, planted or delivered as Vaseline because no one else will. That’s just how it goes sometimes.

My issue is not that people don’t play the way I want. My issue is that people are constantly playing Team Death Match in a game that clearly has other mechanics than only shooting and killing.

You can see that’s a contradiction, can’t you?

FWIW, I agree, it’s an objective game and people should play the objective. The fact that they don’t is something neither of us will change by ranting in text or voice chat or on here. Maybe years of playing BF, which has an acronym specifically for this*, has dulled my vitriolic disappointment when a match devolves into a game of TDM.

Now, while we are on this subject, I’ve always said that a credit bonus for best medic and best engineer of each team should be given at the end of matches. To motivate other gameplay than just shooting and killing. Because the mission incentives are just not enough.

There are big bonuses for handing out health and ammo, the follow-up XP when someone you’ve healed scores points, variable ammo XP depending how much the target needed it, consistent repair XP and objective delivered XP (something like 1,000XP bonus each time). Another bonus isn’t needed, though I think the existing bonuses could be better advertised.

The issue overall, and that people don’t get, is that if you’re not going to play objective or medic centred, and if you are going for a simple TDM approach, the amount of kills you need to do to be helping your team needs to be high and consistent. It’s very hard to do so as a sniper. And even high level Vassili players struggle to do so. I rarely see a Vassili at the top of the scoreboard.

The heartbeat sensor comes in here. Thrown in the right place at the right time, it delivers a points bonanza as well as helping the team. I’ve been near the top of the board as Vaseline with only a few kills because of this and a couple of objective moves.

It even gives you XP for taking damage when an close by ally is delivering an objective.

I didn’t realise it gave XP for that, thanks.

• PTFO - Play The Fucking Objective

[Lumi]

[quote=“turnfalken;97922”]
I didn’t. I said you didn’t play for others because that’s what you’d said earlier. I have no idea what level you are, how many hours you’ve logged or anything else about your game. I don’t care either - it’s only a number.[/quote]

don’t remember saying that. About 350h, level 26. In case those numbers actually mean something.

And I can’t remember how many times I’ve repaired, planted or delivered as Vaseline because no one else will. That’s just how it goes sometimes.

I think you’re projecting your Vassili gameplay onto others, but you’re a rarity. And that’s a bad thing. You being a rarity I mean. There should be more. Most Vassili’s just don’t care. I just finished a game where three vassili’s in one team refused to change to something else. Then a fourth person switched to Vassili as well. Luckily two switched to play something else after a while, but the two who stuck with it the whole game ended up at the low end of the scoreboard. Most Vassili’s are like that unfortunately.

You can see that’s a contradiction, can’t you?

FWIW, I agree, it’s an objective game and people should play the objective. The fact that they don’t is something neither of us will change by ranting in text or voice chat or on here. Maybe years of playing BF, which has an acronym specifically for this*, has dulled my vitriolic disappointment when a match devolves into a game of TDM.

There’s no contradiction. If I wanted the people to play the way I wanted them to then they would have to play exactly what I would like. I’m not a control freak. And I understand people want to play whatever they like, regardless of objectives and other stuff. What we need is a separate game mode in which people who want to learn can go do that. Maybe we’ll never get that.

There are big bonuses for handing out health and ammo, the follow-up XP when someone you’ve healed scores points, variable ammo XP depending how much the target needed it, consistent repair XP and objective delivered XP (something like 1,000XP bonus each time). Another bonus isn’t needed, though I think the existing bonuses could be better advertised.

Yeah, but XP doesn’t matter one bit. It just raises numbers that don’t provide you anything worthwhile. Sure you get that one case every level, but I get 1000 credits to buy me one of those cases more than 10 times in the time that I need to rank up a level. Extra credits would give people some additional incentive.

The heartbeat sensor comes in here. Thrown in the right place at the right time, it delivers a points bonanza as well as helping the team. I’ve been near the top of the board as Vaseline with only a few kills because of this and a couple of objective moves.

Again, you’re one of the few standing out. How can someone with less than 10h of gameplay time know, where to put that heart beat sensor? Not knowing is being useless. Remember, Vassili’s who actually play right have never been the issue.

I didn’t realise it gave XP for that, thanks.

Sure thing, it was a recent addition. Lost in the patch notes.

[_retired]

@Lumi

I can only say that I hear you and feel you.

Thing is that I will play more and more casually because I don’t want to use more time than I’m using now for this game. I have had like two (!) good matches whole week playing few every evening. Balance is just that bad and actually cannot understand why ELO is so bad.

So I welcome all the possible solutions, I just think the problem isn’t exactly there where you pointed in this particular thread.
Also I believe that time in game (levels) matter more than people want to admit since they might be afraid they are mocked because of them.

I’m sure you have and will have more good ideas. It’s totally another thing whether any of such are implented. Keep positive outlook and rest you cannot affect really.