Vassili in the wrong hands... an idea at a merc tree progression.

(Lumi) #1

So I’m sure not that many newcomers come to the forums and actually read this but they’re the most concerned by this. I’ve seen an incredible amount of level 3 to 6 playing Vassili, while they obviously cannot snipe at all. Now if those concerned people would come here and read this I’d say, don’t buy Vassili! Spend your 30k on proxy instead. Much more useful.

But since the concerned parties are not going to be anywhere around here, I just got to come out and say the idea that has been in my head for a couple of weeks now already.

Mercs should be progression locked. This means that you can purchase them, but you can only use them after a certain level. Either total account level, or level with another merc. (As a parenthesis one can either keep mercs locked all the time, or allow them for instant unlock with real money, but then there’s nothing to keep the noobs from playing high skill mercs).

For instance. In the medic branch you already own Aura when you start out, but then as you play her and get X amount of revives you unlock access to Sawbonez, after using him for a while, you get Pheonix and after having progressed with Pheonix you unlock Sparks. But let’s say Sparks can also be unlocked by Vassili progression. One can imagine a pretty interesting unlock tree for mercs that go from low skill mercs to high skill requirement mercs.

Here is my simple in paint iteration of it: imgur.com/LUmUGS9

Obviously this tree can be changed to a different configuration and to add mercs as they get added. Requirements for unlocking the next merc need to be balanced as well. And a bypass needs to be figured out. For instance if I don’t want to purchase Phantom but would like Vassili right away, then I need to reach a higher level with Nader or Sawbonez, or an even higher level with Skyhammer or Aura if I don’t want to purchase the in-betweens. One just needs to pass their tests, by performing well with a lower skill merc before going for a higher skill one.

(Chase) #2

@Lumi This idea feels pretty good on paper but I feel that this would only drive the argument of “DB being pay2win” even further. A player should be free to purchase any mercs that they like because after all, a game is about personal enjoyment.

The core problem you’ve stated is the fact that Vassili is only 30k credits and easily purchasable. Being a Vassili player myself, I have unwillingly switched over to another merc just to help my team further after seeing a level 5 playing sniper. Personally I think that raising Vassili’s price to 50k would help out the situation a lot more.

In addition, part of the reason why Vassili may be so common around lower levels may be due to DB’s starter pack which includes Vassili :wink:

That aside, I love the idea of a progression tree and perhaps that could be implemented as a list of steam achievements instead?

(_retired_) #3

I don’t agree with this idea at all.

[quote=“Lumi;19066”]or an even higher level with Skyhammer or Aura if I don’t want to purchase the in-betweens. One just needs to pass their tests, by performing well with a lower skill merc before going for a higher skill one.[/quote]You 're promoting here some kind of easier payable route to “high skill mercs”.

And I can honestly say that since I had plentiful experience of sniping from other games, Vassili wasn’t even close being the hardest character me to play at start. Especially PDP is just joke to learn.

I don’t think noobs of levels 3-5 are the problem at all. They have their own servers and they should be practicing there with all the possible mercs they have bought so when they turn up into other servers, they are more ready. For me the problem lies bit above 5 when people don’t still know the maps, let alone other mercs they don’t play so they are easy pray example to Phantoms, nades, airstrikes etc.

In your system they would practice with those other mercs and then come to other servers with that fresh bought Vassili without any skill of sniping at all. Where’s the logic on that?

No problem solved, just more problems created.

I like to see more skill/level divided servers or have some kind of merc level cap so if you are just level 3 with Vassili, you cannot enter level 10 merc Server with him but just with other mercs you have level 10.

(Lumi) #4

There not being a max level 10 server is an issue on its own and I’m sorry to say that many people under level 5 still play on regular servers. Also, it wouldn’t be that easy for someone to get Vassili unlocked. It would take a lot of play with easier mercs before you’d reach that cap.

Now I do like the idea of merc level instead of a global level, but how do you separate when people have three separate levels on their mercs? And how do you handle the discrepancy of a newcomer with a level 3 merc and another who has 10 level 20 mercs and just starts playing a new merc at level 3. They are in completely different leagues, no?

(gg2ez) #5

There needs to be ALOT more mercs if you wanna progression lock them.

(Resine) #6

Please no, the last thing I want Is to be forced to play the classes I don’t want to.

(_retired_) #7

If you think about it, wouldn’t you want that Vassili player learning the ropes of it from the start? The issue that those under level 5 Vassili come to normal servers is in my book issue on it’s own since it can also mean they suck with that Alienware Timik Skyhammer too.
Also I think it would be hindrance gaining new players to the game.

[quote=“Lumi;97358”]Now I do like the idea of merc level instead of a global level, but how do you separate when people have three separate levels on their mercs? And how do you handle the discrepancy of a newcomer with a level 3 merc and another who has 10 level 20 mercs and just starts playing a new merc at level 3. They are in completely different leagues, no?[/quote]Well, maybe there would be both global level and experience of that merc contributing to merc level so with high global level you would get already quite jump to that merc’s level at the start.

I don’t have the details of it really. :smiley:

For me at least the problem isn’t necessary 1-5 level noobs, it’s bit over which is troublesome that until good above level 10. I think that point levels start to kick in sense that when they actually know what they should be doing. It’s another thing whether they always succeed.

I personally have suggested that there should be some kind of mode between casuals and comp (unranked) where you can play 6-8vs6-8 matches more “seriously”. In those servers it might be impossible to level 1-5 example to join at all or there could be even merc restrictions.
There’s too big cap between pubs and comp, let alone the team balance is just horrible.
It really doesn’t help to have like three Auras in your team either when you are playing 6vs6, now does it? That issue wouldn’t be solved either with your suggestion but made worse.

(DMaster2) #8

Don’t agree with this idea, new players have already to amass credits for new mercs and they even need to unlock the possibility of playing with them? Give them a proper basic training, with maybe credits reward to incentive them doing it, and you at least find people that do pass ammo, defuse or revive properly. A training mission for each of the roles would be a good start.

Vas was the first merc i purchased and i never ever regretted it. Vas is still my main currently.

(Black) #9

Why not just increase the amount of money to buy vassili.
It will drive most of the new players away.

(wolvie) #10

I don’t really like this idea. You would be restricting what people wanted to play. What if people wanted to play sparks and not phoenix. It wastes their time and choice of what they want to play. Imo this would kill a game. Would really take a lot of the fun out for me.

(Demolama) #11

This game used to have progression unlocks for mercs back when it was still Extraction and before the loadout system was introduced IRC

(Lumi) #12

So after reading all of your comments I can only say that I have suggested most of the counter arguments before. I’ve written it in other threads and still, there are no max level 12 and min level 12 separations. We still have no forced tutorial, nor individual merc tutorial as I already suggested once. Etc, etc.

Every idea I’ve come up with has always had only the opposing side reply to my threads. And the funny part out of this is that once I have exhausted the best solutions and come back with something, I agree a bit too extreme, people counter with my original solutions, which back then weren’t good enough. In the end there will always be counter arguments to every solution and those against will always speak the loudest. Instead of trying to improve upon an idea and make it better that is.

Anyway, I’m still going to defend certain points of this idea.

Yes, the more, the better. Doesn’t mean we can’t start now.

I already said that you could play more with a certain merc to unlock a further down the line merc. Let’s say you play sawbonez, starting at level 1, you rank him up till level 2 and then can play phoenix, but you wouldn’t want to rank him up till level 2 for unlocking sparks. Well, you can rank up sawbonez till level three to unlock sparks.

Also, real money can unlock a merc for you immediately and for those who don’t want to use real money to fast track, you’re still going to have to play to get the credits to buy Sparks. The balance should be made so that you get enough credits by ranking up the relevant mercs in order to purchase the mercs further down the line. You can even include a small discount if you work your way down the tree, as a bonus.

Yes, people right now are dicks and they only play what they want with no regards to what they’re good at and what will help the team. Furthermore, it could only help the game. How many players have bought Vassili, sucked terribly at it and have been kicked or yelled at for sucking with him to a point where they don’t want to play the game anymore. Giving them a controlled playground to grow is a sensible thing to do. It’s not because a 6 year old wants to play with a knife that you’ll allow it to him. You’ll give him toys and the knifes are for when he’s grown up and you’re sure he won’t cut himself with it.

And how did people feel about it? did it work?

(FireWorks) #13

[quote=“Lumi;97484”]

And how did people feel about it? did it work?[/quote]

They didnt like it and it got removed. You cant say much about how it worked cause in that stage youd only see die hard players anyway. But it smelt like p2w when you got shafted by mercs you had no access to for the next 100hours.

(Lumi) #14

[quote=“FireWorks;97487”]

They didnt like it and it got removed. You cant say much about how it worked cause in that stage youd only see die hard players anyway. But it smelt like p2w when you got shafted by mercs you had no access to for the next 100hours.[/quote]

Wow, 100h sounds terribly lots. That’s why if you look at my first tree draft, you’ll see that mercs like Fragger and Nader are early unlocks. I didn’t feel like putting very good mercs at the end as my goal was to put the higher skill cap mercs there and the easy to use ones up front. Note Red-Eye, being one of the latest unlocks (Aimee, mainly because there’s little info on her) as he is one of the only mercs that can actually harm a team rather than just be useless.

(_retired_) #15

[quote=“Lumi;97484”] And the funny part out of this is that once I have exhausted the best solutions and come back with something, I agree a bit too extreme, people counter with my original solutions, which back then weren’t good enough. In the end there will always be counter arguments to every solution and those against will always speak the loudest. Instead of trying to improve upon an idea and make it better that is.

Anyway, I’m still going to defend certain points of this idea.[/quote]The problem with your idea is that it won’t counter the idea of “bad Vassili player” instead it will just create number of problems.
Let alone make F2P with huge access to mercs/loadouts to feel like some kind of play-or-pay-eventually-own-merc-you-actually-would-like.

I played some Aura but never liked Skyhammer and now you’re telling me I should had to play them until I could buy any other mercs just because there are some bad Vassilis out there.

And what comes to you answers, you missed example this part of my comments:

The problem what you aren’t understanding is that mercs like Vassili have abilities that differ so much from the norm that it doesn’t help if they learn to play with other mercs before them with different abilities rather than go directly example practice Vassili. Or do you really think playing Skyhammer and Nader will help lot with sniping? Even the tactics involved are completely different.

[quote=“Lumi;97484”] Giving them a controlled playground to grow is a sensible thing to do. It’s not because a 6 year old wants to play with a knife that you’ll allow it to him. You’ll give him toys and the knifes are for when he’s grown up and you’re sure he won’t cut himself with it[/quote]Learning about toys to eventually get knives won’t help them learn about guns and explosives.

(Lumi) #16

True, the sniping part will have to happen on its own, but my point is that adding the sniping learning with the rest of map learning, objective prioritizing, basic aim and others, definitely doesn’t help any new player to learn how to play vassili. It’s just a sensory overload.

Just like in the kid metaphor, you’re not going to let them play with knifes because they’re still learning how to master holding things properly and to assess danger and risk. trying to do so in an unsafe environment is nuts.

Same goes for Vassili. Learning how to snipe in an unknown environment with unknown objectives is nuts. One needs to know the basics before one can have the proper environment to learn a new more challenging merc.

(Amerika) #17

I agree that too many people buy Vassili and get their first experience with DB trying to sit in one spot and scope in 24/7 as opposed to being heavily mobile, jumping off of walls and using the HBS well causing them to die over and over again and not be helpful in anyway for the team. But, I simply don’t like limiting choice. Forcing people to play something they might not want to play causes a lot of animosity. A couple of recent and relevant examples within DB right now is the Competitive missions and the secondary objective missions (recently removed).

I get what you want to do in trying to make the lower end of the DB experience be a bit better for everyone at that end of the spectrum while improving knowledge/pub play overall. But when people want to sit down and relax and have fun they might not take too kindly to being limited that much in a game that didn’t start out that way. The first counter I can think of to that is, “LoL does it”. Yeah, and lots of people don’t like that and play Dota2 instead.

Basically, you’d potentially help one issue while creating another possibly larger one.

(MarsRover) #18

At least rise his price to 50k so that he’s not as tempting to all those level 3-4 players that just got credits from leveling up. Announce it 2-4 weeks in advance so everyone interested can buy him for 30k.

(DMaster2) #19

[quote=“Lumi;97484”]I already said that you could play more with a certain merc to unlock a further down the line merc. Let’s say you play sawbonez, starting at level 1, you rank him up till level 2 and then can play phoenix, but you wouldn’t want to rank him up till level 2 for unlocking sparks. Well, you can rank up sawbonez till level three to unlock sparks.

Also, real money can unlock a merc for you immediately and for those who don’t want to use real money to fast track, you’re still going to have to play to get the credits to buy Sparks. The balance should be made so that you get enough credits by ranking up the relevant mercs in order to purchase the mercs further down the line. You can even include a small discount if you work your way down the tree, as a bonus.[/quote]
Looking at your example i new player would’ve to spend 110k credits to unlock Vassili (fastest route Aura->Sawbonez->Phantom->Vassili) having to waste credits on another medic when i already have Aura and waste 50k on a merc i personally loathe (Phantom) before purchasing what i really want. Or spend 20k more credits and buy Nader instead of Sawbonez (but still forced to buy Phantom). That would be a terrible system, especially since new players have a credit income a lot slower than us old timers.

(Lumi) #20

@Amerika

The way I see it, it can go both ways. Many games work with progression type mechanics and they do give a sense of reward as well with unlocks that some enjoy. At least that’s what I love about tech trees for instance.

You understood me wrong. Purchase of “in between” mercs wouldn’t be necessary. You could rank up multiple times with Skyhammer and still unlock Vassili without purchasing anyone else. For instance. You’d rank up once with Skyhammer unlocking the ability to buy Nader and Fragger, you wouldn’t buy either, but would rank up Skyhammer once more, unlocking Thunder, Rhino, Arty and Phantom. By ranking up Skyhammer a third time, you’d unlock Stoker, Kira and Vassili. Get it?