Upcoming Phantom Changes

(Zalamael) #41

How about adjusting his cloak visibility based on how fast he is moving (and also the drain on the cloak energy)?

For example, when he is standing completely still, have it drain really slowly and make him completely invisible. If he is crouch-walking, have him be slightly visible with a faster drain, and then increase it more for running and then again for sprinting (with sprinting having the fastest drain and being the most visible).

This way, rather than just running into position before the cloak drains completely, he can take his time getting into position by stopping to take in the situation (without the pressure of the cloak energy running out), and will be able to stop moving if he fears he will be detected. He would also be forced to attack from behind or run the risk of being seen as he would be more visible when sprinting towards a target in their field of view. It would punish the bad Phantoms who run at people’s faces without thinking about a more clever approach (the ones who only care about cheap kills), and it would reward more calculating Phantoms who get into good positions first, cloak, and get into a position where they have a big effect or escape easily, and allow them to wait for an ideal opportunity to pounce.

Also, with regards to his EMP, it would mean he can get into position next to deployables and wait for his team to push (assuming he had enough cloak energy left), and then pop out, rather than waiting further back and then running in cloaked when his team push. He would have a lot more time to allow him to wait for a solid opportunity, but he would also run the risk of being discovered the longer he is in position. This might require a change of detection abilities though, as it could be too easy to detect him when waiting.

It seems to me that this is a problem that can’t be solved by tweaking variables, so thinking outside the box might present a better solution. One of his issues is that he has no escape mechanism, so once he commits, he is running the risk of being killed (especially in higher level matches where players are communicating and will call him out). The other issue is that he is only countered by killing him first (early detection) or killing him after he gets a kill, in which case all he really does is trade himself for a priority target (which isn’t necessarily a bad thing as it will help his team with a push or delay an enemy push).

The devs will have to decide how they want him to be countered, and what they want him to achieve when he is played seriously as part of a team.

(Xenithos) #42

@arharr3 said:
So technically the only change to pre-buff Phantom is that his EMP will no longer be always active while still being locked to the cloak.
Really, just add the uncloaking delay which you scrapped for unknown reasons or risk returning him to the old trash state of being spotted across the map in an instant.

Well technically he’s going to be slightly less visible (as in barely) and he’s spot resistant while cloaked with separation of EMP. These are the changes I’m seeing from before hunter and after these reworks.

(Xenithos) #43

@bgyoshi said:
Thanks for the timely response to the issue @Smooth

Whether you’re for the change or not, it’s hard to argue that making a change this promptly is a bad thing.

I’m seriously digging the renewed focus on the forums and community. A year ago this response would’ve take 2 - 4 weeks

Not disagreeing with you, but sometimes the changes take that long because Devs want to make sure that all players get a chance to actually make up their minds when something new hits the game. Even Javelin wasn’t seen as completely OP when she hit, it’s the same with Phantom, but most are in agreement that changes are in order. I think that there’s some more adjusting that could also be done by PLAYERS to the new Phantom as well, but agree that in it’s current state he’s just a little cheese enabling.

(PorkyPerson) #44

@Smooth

I think you guys really just need to decide on what his cloak is for. Is he a close-up sniper, does he cloak to counter deployables, or is his cloak just a flank button?

If he’s a close-up sniper, then maybe he needs to be able to recloak quickly, but have something more like the current sniper trails. Make him as hard to see as a sniper’s head and then add a flash that other team members can see when he attacks from cloak.

If he’s a disabler, give him a real power, make him reverse devices. Medstation? Now it’s a deathstation and damages anyone around it for a few seconds. Shield wall? Now their bullets damage it and Phantom’s team gets a damage buff when going through it. HB sensor now glitches, showing false heartbeats or even works for Phantom’s team.

If his cloak is primarily for flanking, he needs to be easily detectable when he’s close(even behind) and hard when he’s not close enough to be a one-shot threat. His cloak would need to be a means to get him to a flanking position, but not a means to keep him alive or escape.

(GatoCommodore) #45

@PorkyPerson said:
@Smooth

If he’s a disabler, give him a real power, make him reverse devices. Medstation? Now it’s a deathstation and damages anyone around it for a few seconds. Shield wall? Now their bullets damage it and Phantom’s team gets a damage buff when going through it. HB sensor now glitches, showing false heartbeats or even works for Phantom’s team.

now this is an idea
way better than

“hurr nerf phantom!”

(azz_abdr) #46

for current phantom, I’d rather have uncloak delay.
but if you want slightly more visible and louder, I’ll take it.

(Da_Mummy) #47

I guess the uncloak time/delay should be something the devs should consider after being recommended so much.
Still except for a few people that mentioned him we seem to forget about a merc that has been going under the radar for far too long. You know the guy who was supposed to counter Phantom.
I know I might sound like a broken record at this point but there IS A MERC AGAINST PHANTOM like seriously everyone complains that not every merc can counter Phantom, because he HAS a counter.
So why not give Redeye some love instead of reversing all you precious work by just straight up nerfing Phantom again after some people including myself didn’t even play more than 3 matches with and against him.
It hasn’t even been a week and the “crossbow tournaments” that shoe made up are more like Phantom competitions. It’s like the pyro update where everyone was playing him causing people to think he was OP. Just wait a week until people get used to it.

(woodchip) #48

The delay does not seem workable. Any kind of substantial delay longer than like .3 seconds would make Phantom really weak at everything except ganking an isolated target from behind. Which might seem like a good idea but I can’t see how it would work in a game where you almost always have teammates nearby.

The 1 second delay people keep suggesting would be a cloak that isn’t usable in a team based game, because every merc can kill 110 HP in 1 second, and finding a situation where a target is truly isolated is fairly rare.

So in the very common situation where you run into more than 1 enemy in an area, the cloak would pretty consistently get you killed, often before you even fire a shot. Which would make Phantom feel awful.

It would also be unfun to play against, because a powerful counter to phantom would be simply spinning 360 degrees every few seconds to scan for his decloak. Just because an enemy is playing Phantom. Very lame.

Not to mention the ‘upside’ of a Phantom that can automatically kill isolated characters caught staring out a window isn’t obviously desirable.

(Gire) #49

Making Phantoms cloak delay before attacking removes his kill potential.

People who say “its not fun” when somebody 1 shots you or deals high damage in a short time, did they forget that all mercs can 1/2 shot you? Even if you take Sawbonez and have chopper on Cricket Bat you can 1 hit 90hp mercs and 2 shot 120hp’s even without chopper.

(GatoCommodore) #50

@Gire said:
Making Phantoms cloak delay before attacking removes his kill potential.

People who say “its not fun” when somebody 1 shots you or deals high damage in a short time, did they forget that all mercs can 1/2 shot you? Even if you take Sawbonez and have chopper on Cricket Bat you can 1 hit 90hp mercs and 2 shot 120hp’s even without chopper.

people are blinded by their “feelings” when faced with reasonable argument

the newbies would still call nerf for the sake of nerf because they simply dont know how hard is playing phantom against good experienced enemies.

(Ptiloui) #51

@K1X455 said:
Or how about you buff Redeye instead by allowing him to see the cloaked Phantom?

stahp teh nerfs!!!

AFAIK, it’s already the case. I’ve been spotted by redeye while cloaked.

(Drac0rion) #52

SD sure likes to joke around with us.

Have Phantom at trash tier for 2 years and then “rework” him for the second time, only to overtune him and then throw him back into the trash after a week.

The thing that Phantom was supposed to decloak was the most vital part of the supposed rework.

SD did nothing but overbuff Phantom’s current cloak and slightly changed the EMP. How did they expect this to change anything? Other than the EMP he functions exactly the same, with just an overpowered cloak.

The whole point of the cloak is for Phantom to be able to perform flanks much easier than other mercs.
If any other mercs flanks, they go from point A around and avoiding B to C and then perform an ambush. Phantom should be able to go from A straight to C without having to worry too much about being spotted.
When any other merc flanks, you don’t get any extra counterplay. You don’t see them or hear them until you get shot.
Phantom doesn’t need to be visible or have any audio to give him away. But, this is why decloaking animation is vital. So that Phantom has to perform a flank, not just jump out from middle of nowhere guns blazing.
It doesn’t matter if it takes 0.5 or 1.5 sec to decloak as long as the animation forces him to switch off his weapons and decloak somewhere safe.
Phantom’s cloak shouldn’t be for cheesy ambushes from invisibility, but instead it should be like a “teleport”, to be better at flanking than any other merc.

Making Phantom more visible or louder defeats the whole purpose of his ability.

All that current Phantom needs is to force him to decloak. And then you can monitor him and balance him from there.
If he is made more visible and louder then the whole rework is nothing but wasted effort.

In my opinion this much would at least allow Phantom to change, otherwise he’ll be back to trash tier for another 2 years.

(PorkyPerson) #53

@Gire said:
Making Phantoms cloak delay before attacking removes his kill potential.

People who say “its not fun” when somebody 1 shots you or deals high damage in a short time, did they forget that all mercs can 1/2 shot you? Even if you take Sawbonez and have chopper on Cricket Bat you can 1 hit 90hp mercs and 2 shot 120hp’s even without chopper.

I don’t think this is true. It would change the way you play Phantom, though. You’d have to cloak to get behind and take a good position, then come in for the kill uncloaked. I think the longer the delay the more this style would be forced.

(Chris Mullins) #54

Thank you all for your feedback. @watsyurdeal I’ve forwarded on yours specifically to a few devs to look at as it encompasses a lot of how players feel.

(watsyurdeal) #55

@stayfreshshoe said:
Thank you all for your feedback. @watsyurdeal I’ve forwarded on yours specifically to a few devs to look at as it encompasses a lot of how players feel.

O_O

Oh no, now my ocd is kicking in, I feel like I should have made video now

But still, that is awesome news, thanks @stayfreshshoe

(bgyoshi) #56

@Xenithos said:

Not disagreeing with you, but sometimes the changes take that long because Devs want to make sure that all players get a chance to actually make up their minds when something new hits the game.

Not disagreeing with you, but instead of taking the standard route of letting the new change sit for a long time, they seemed to have been realistic about the update. They wanted phantom to work this way, but they weren’t sure if players would or wouldn’t take issue with some specific things. They tried to preempt player feedback and probably have several other change variation ideas ready to go. If you ask me, that’s evidence that they’re much more understanding of their own flaws and eager to make changes for the community ASAP.

I’m glad when they give something new some time to permeate and let players adjust, but I’m also happy to see they suspected this kind of backlash and were ready to jump on it.

@watsyurdeal said:

Oh no, now my ocd is kicking in, I feel like I should have made video now

I think you might have a secondary boss title to be added in the DB Forums Boss thread

(Major_Slapnuts) #57

some good stuff here. I like;

  1. Make Phantom invisible when running, but slightly visible when sprinting.
  2. Any hit will make phantom visible.
  3. Make phantom visible when he is in Guardians dome shield.
  4. Red eye’s ir goggles can see cloaked phantoms and smoke makes cloaked phantoms more visible.
(Begin2018) #58

What’s the point to have an invisible merc in this game anyway? Maybe it was useful to escape from spawn-kill in old Terminal to reopen the tunnel but that’s it. Otherwise it’s just a TDM merc and can be removed from the game (or at least his invisibility).

Currently, as his cloak is electronic, EMP should decloak him (Hunter and others Phantoms).

(Zalamael) #59

@Major_Slapnuts said:
some good stuff here. I like;

  1. Make Phantom invisible when running, but slightly visible when sprinting.
  2. Any hit will make phantom visible.
  3. Make phantom visible when he is in Guardians dome shield.
  4. Red eye’s ir goggles can see cloaked phantoms and smoke makes cloaked phantoms more visible.

With regards to No 2, any hit making a stealth character visible is always a massive source of complaint with the people who use stealth characters. And that goes double for a game with incidental area of effect damage that is very difficult to avoid. And in a sense (despite their reasons for even wanting to play a stealth class in an FPS), they are not wrong.

I agree with Begin2018, there is no real reason to have a stealth merc in a game that is supposedly about gunplay and movement. It just feels like Phantom is there because stealth classes are a trope and SD fear the criticism if they don’t have one. He will either be balanced for competitive play, in which case he will ruin casual play (without hero limits, which is a rubbish solution), or he will be rubbish at comp and mostly used by trolls and bad players for casual skylarking.

Saying that, it is too late to not have Phantom. The character model is made, the sound effects, the programming, animations etc. We have to keep him, there has been too much work put into Phantom to even consider just deleting him. Which is to say, SD need to decide if they want him to be a valid choice in competitive play (and I would say this is the easier choice to sacrifice if need be), or just a cheesy casual pick (this is the best choice).

No matter how he is adjusted, it wont please everyone. And in reality, despite what most people want, having him be a dead pick even in casual is a far better option than having him be such a popular choice in casual that it causes players to quit because they get sick of being killed by a cheesy low skill option.

The most important consideration with a stealth class, is how to make them viable at higher levels based on skill, without making them dumb-down easy for bad players who want an easy class to abuse without needing to learn aiming and moving. In other words, Phantom needs a high skill floor. He needs to be a class that requires real skill to be effective, not a bottom-feeder, button masher class. That is what will kill the game for casual players more than anything.

Hell, even Sombra in Overwatch managed to get it mostly right, her invisibility was tempered by the fact she couldn’t get cheap kills, but she had an escape if she got in hot water. That is a far better way to make a stealth character than allowing them free and easy kills and then dying afterwards.

(Sajouri) #60

I just feel like phantom is a character to fuck noobs but get fucked by more experienced players. buuuut since the higher population is new and medium experienced players it’s just gonna make splash damage put on their boots and put out the fire known as phantom a.k.a making him bad/not viable again. They need to nerf him like how they did with fragger and proxy. Small, minuscule nerfs to see how he shines in the battlefield.