Underground Design Update - Issues Identified

(SD_AK) #1

Hey everyone!

Thanks for letting us know about all your issues with Underground and your suggestions for how we can fix them.
We have collated all your comments and have grouped them into key areas for improvement that we would like to address.
We would now like to share these problem areas with you to get your ideas on how you would like to see them resolved.

When leaving feedback/ideas, please do the following:

  • Please use a header for each of your points and write your comments below. This will help us organise all your feedback
  • Have open discussions about the issues and solutions
  • Feel free to post images and video’s for clarity

General

There is not enough opportunities for Air Support

Air support is not useful enough throughout the map. Air support can effectively knockout strong defensive positions giving attackers a better chance to push and complete objectives.

Reported by: Pegarex, k3endo, woodchip, PorkyPerson

“Please suggest areas that you would like to see opened up for Air Support. There is a balance that must be maintained but we are happy to explore this further.”

Invisible Walls

There a many invisible walls that prevent free movement around the map.

Reported by: ImSploosh

“We don’t like using invisible walls however sometimes they are needed for gameplay purposes.Please let us know about any invisible walls and we will fix them on a case by case basis.”

OBJ1

Too easy for defenders to spawn camp via balcony

Defenders are easily able to take balcony where they can effectively render the attackers left route out of spawn useless. This combined with a defensive hold from roof can stop attackers pushing the right route out of spawn. The only option left is for attackers to take the lift to balcony pushing through a tight choke at the top (which is also signalled by the lifts bell) straight into the sightlines of the defenders camping above.

Reported by: Pegarex, kopyright, blufflord, Melinder, DrAxOr, Angel_Stimpy, Eox, OwynTyler, auwi, woodchip, LifeupOmega, MegapiemanPHD, Nymain, FishRolls, Snydder_Bitter

6bt3izN.jpg1648x927

“We 100% agree that balcony can cause frustration for attackers. There are so many ways we can improve this area and would like to discuss this point with you in more detail. What do you think is the best solution and how would you implement it.”

##Roof offers too much cover for defenders
It can be difficult for attackers to push out of spawn when defenders are set up on roof. Defenders have lots of cover that gives a big advantage.

Reported by: Melinder

kSeEkRl.jpg1648x927

“This one directly relates to the balcony issues. We would like to debate how to reduce the cover here to expose defender positions from attackers side.”

Transition Area

##Spawn Transitions
There is no clear indicator as to why attacker’s spawn shifts from above the escalators to the level below often ontop of where defenders are defending from.

Reported by: kopyright, Dentist-svk, spookify, DrDacreamer

tjQisvS.jpg1648x927

“Spawn changes in Dirty Bomb are normally triggered via player events, in Undergrounds case this isn’t true. We would like to hear your suggestions on how we can make this spawn transition more clearer through visuals only.”

#OBJ3
##Secondary Gas Route gives little advantage
The secondary gas route is a much weaker position than the generator room and thus gets used far less.

Reported by: Woodchip, MegaplemanPHD, Snydder_Bitter

Jl9nn1X.jpg1648x927

“We would like to hear your ideas for making the Secondary Gas Route more advantageous for attackers.”

(LifeupOmega) #2

Still feel that escalators should be a one time flag cap for a moving spawn instead of the two spawn rule currently in effect. It’s both more interesting (adding what is essentially a third major objective) and more informative than what we have now. Sure this isn’t just visual, but it would most likely make the map less annoying to play on in the transition from first to second, and would only require a player to reach the flag and stay on it for a short duration to move on.

Gas tunnel is honestly fine in my opinion, given that one of the optimal plants is directly in the line of sight of it, and people can set up there to cover it. Why it may appear weak is that defenders have a variety of jumps to get into it from their side, allowing flanks to main and gen room (which is a good thing imo).

First balcony is the major issue overall though, and should probably be blocked off for defenders through a risen platform on the balcony (use of containers, ramps, etc.) or through removing the light fixture and part of the roof’s cover (both of which are used to jump up to balcony).

I don’t feel like air support actually gets shafted too much on this map, given that the places that they can be utilised are already incredibly powerful - especially in the case of Kira, who can lock down the C4 plants.

(SteelMailbox) #3

I had this idea around 2-3 years ago.
My idea revolved around the escalator area and the problem with it not having a clear objective and just a “die/camp until time’s up and you got the forward spawn point”. In my opinion I would like to see a capture objective added to the main point in the escalator spot (like in Terminal) to provide a clear cut objective and to put the map more in line with other maps in the game (that being that only this map has 2 objectives while the others have 3).
While I am not experienced at map design this change shouldn’t be that difficult AFAIK as it is removing a few pieces of cover, adding new cover and of course the capture point while performing changes to the timer to reflect the added objective.

(NexDroid) #4

OBJ 1 - BALCONY: Maybe add some kind of barrier so enemies can’t jump directly from roof to balcony unless they destroy (or repair) another generator that will lower a barrier. Maybe place that generator at place where can attackers quite easily protect it, like under the canary wharf sign. This still doesn’t solve problem with ninja proxies rushing to elevator and placing mines at its exit - personally I’d like to see a gap behind an elevator and rest of balcony so you have to jump over (with a walljump) to get there.

OBJ 1 - ROOF: Roof is and always has been a problem. Defenders can’t get there as easy as it would be neccessary to quickly clear it. And if they eventually get there they have very little dodging space so you take hits and die or jump/fall down from a pipe and live - but getting back up takes a time that can be used against you as attackers can heal on the roof. I’d suggest adding a little platform (maybe with a little wall?) at the end of a pipe near roof or making some kind of a balcony around whole side of roof near deffenders.

OBJ - GAS CHAMBER (ehm tunnel): Truth is that it is kind of useless. Maybe add a MG nest at it so it can help up attackers? Also because that it can’t be fight at its very interior gas chamber gets ignored much more that barriers room. Maybe add a wall near that pipe that goes through the wall from deffenders site so it can be easier walljumped to the nest? I know it can be longjumped at this moment but a lot of players don’t know of this possibility or maybe can’t reach that due their lack of jump skills.

(GatoCommodore) #5

i feel like we need to have 2 underground map just to compare which one feels better because right now i feel like if any of the side (attacker or defender) gains the balcony, it has good things of their own.

you can actually snipe people trying to defuse if you plant it at the right spot and force the defender to deal with you by climbing the pipe and dealing with you takes around 7-10 second max. This basically deny defusing and if you get a good team, its just ensure 1st objective exploded with less effort.

imo its rare for me to get camped from up there, but if they were to camp from up there its usually because nobody was playing from the balcony and made it easy for the defender to invade.

the defender elevator tho, thats another story.
if an attacker able to climb up there he/she can lock both attacker spawn and it is really hard to remove (especially if its redeye or rhino) and harder to jump into from the outside

one of the easiest way to reduce the camping is to remove both of the elevator sound so the camper wont know if it climbs or not

or if SD decide to do it the not so easy way, create a yellow pipe branch from the middle to the balcony.

the middle ground is to remove all the boxes and cover on the balcony so people on the bottom can fling grenades, explosive snipe the people on the balcony and connect it to attacker side elevator balcony.

(Melinder) #6

May as well hire me now tbh

(woodchip) #7

@LifeupOmega said:

Gas tunnel is honestly fine in my opinion, given that one of the optimal plants is directly in the line of sight of it, and people can set up there to cover it. Why it may appear weak is that defenders have a variety of jumps to get into it from their side, allowing flanks to main and gen room (which is a good thing imo).

I wanted to respectfully disagree with this. While it’s true that controlling Gas tunnel ultimately helps you defend against defuses, and therefore has a use, it remains a weak avenue of attack. So it leads to a situation where all the action flows to the Gen side which sort of violates the “there are always 3 viable routes” principle. Problem isn’t really that the Gas tunnel is worthless, just that the action revolves too much around the Gen room.

(SD_AK) #8

@LifeupOmega said:
Still feel that escalators should be a one time flag cap for a moving spawn instead of the two spawn rule currently in effect. It’s both more interesting (adding what is essentially a third major objective) and more informative than what we have now. Sure this isn’t just visual, but it would most likely make the map less annoying to play on in the transition from first to second, and would only require a player to reach the flag and stay on it for a short duration to move on.

Adding a new objective into the middle of the map and having it function well without re-balancing the map is a very large undertaking, as the map is relatively balanced, adding new objectives would be a large scale change with unforeseeable changes to the balance.

@woodchip said:

I wanted to respectfully disagree with this. While it’s true that controlling Gas tunnel ultimately helps you defend against defuses, and therefore has a use, it remains a weak avenue of attack. So it leads to a situation where all the action flows to the Gen side which sort of violates the “there are always 3 viable routes” principle. Problem isn’t really that the Gas tunnel is worthless, just that the action revolves too much around the Gen room.

So the question is what can we do to make the gas tunnel a stronger more viable option for attack?

@NexDroid said:

OBJ - GAS CHAMBER (ehm tunnel): Truth is that it is kind of useless. Maybe add a MG nest at it so it can help up attackers? Also because that it can’t be fight at its very interior gas chamber gets ignored much more that barriers room. Maybe add a wall near that pipe that goes through the wall from deffenders site so it can be easier walljumped to the nest? I know it can be longjumped at this moment but a lot of players don’t know of this possibility or maybe can’t reach that due their lack of jump skills.

The trick jump could be a little more intuitive for defenders but the main issue is making this route stronger for attackers. I think an MG here would be a bit too much!

Good work using the headers BTW :smile:

@GatoCommodore said:

one of the easiest way to reduce the camping is to remove both of the elevator sound so the camper wont know if it climbs or not
or if SD decide to do it the not so easy way, create a yellow pipe branch from the middle to the balcony.
the middle ground is to remove all the boxes and cover on the balcony so people on the bottom can fling grenades, explosive snipe the people on the balcony and connect it to attacker side elevator balcony.>

Removing the audio cue is the simplest option but probably won’t fix the issue. The problem is pushing out of the tight chokee elevator straight into the crosshairs of a camping defender (legitimate tactic). A larger change is still needed as you’ve suggested such as removing all cover to expose players up there.

(Mc1412013) #9

I hate change on things

(Melinder) #10

@SD_AK said:
So the question is what can we do to make the gas tunnel a stronger more viable option for attack?

To me, the reason it’s underused is because pushing Generator Room / Middle is more important, as in order to crumble a defence, Attackers are generally required to destroy the Health Station that is placed on the yellow pipes in front of the bombsite. With the Health Station alive, pushing Middle or Gas is near impossible due to the Defenders having cover in the form of the yellow pipe, and a health station that is in a spot that is near impossible to reach for Attackers.

Tackling this issue, to me, would be one of the best ways to create a less Defender-sided last section. As it is now, Attackers are somewhat forced to take Generator Room because of this, which is a completely different issue of it’s own, due to Attackers having to push a corridor with a height disadvantage and minimal cover, whereas the Defenders have the height advantage and a corner to fall back on.

Image for reference

j1VyT0W.png1920x1080

(SparkyShock) #11

OBJ 2- There is only one real viable plant option.
Usually with a defuse map of any kind, there are multiple plant spots that can be used for the multiple positions the attackers can take hold of. The issue is that Underground has an almost God like plant spot that is always the best option. The far right of the site, right in front of the ramp on that side.

Sightline from the generator room, giving a forward, covered area for attackers to watch and shoot at.

A sightline from attacker spawn that snipers can use to shoot anyone defusing with no real consequences.

The gas tunnel has a pretty direct line of sight of the spot.

Fire supports have the perfect spot where their splash damage can hit anyone defusing from behind the control panel (if they aren’t already being shot at).

(Side Note: You can also plant in front of the desk on the site. Would recommend changing this so it’s more apparent that it is an option, as it is also a good plant if you are being shot upon by defenders just spawning in.

(Theatrum) #12

There is only one place for attackers to pop out the gas tunnel which makes it extremely easy to cover. Perhaps multiple openings or something else there could help?

(XSheepieX) #13

I would maybe suggest having the tunnel entrance not look out not facing the obj and instead have it come round the side a bit and have the tunnel exit be on the wall to the right hand side of the tunnel if you were to exit the tunnel as it is now. That way you could then put a few boxes in that area and hold it and you might be able to use it to take out defenders holding the central pipes. I feel that would be more useful. It would also protect against snipers.

Hell you could even have the tunnel split into two parts. I like the MG idea perhaps…

(Nazzum) #14

The secondary objective on the last part; all the action ia concentrated in the secondary objective, where you have to repair a generator to close the door, or destroy it if you are deffending.

It’s so infuriating when new players go straight to that objective and not to the main one.

Besides, those doors are useless 90% of the time.

(giganizer) #15

GAS TUNNEL - maybe the gen room also has to be reworked to make it more relevant. If the gen room window was bigger and the pillar would be removed, neither team would be able to defend the OBJ platform without significantly exposing themselves. Without the pillar, it would also be easier to clear the room with explosives or simply by rushing it as there wouldn’t be cover. The gas tunnel’s vantage point could also have a solid wall instead of a small fence.

SPAWN TRANSITIONS (+ AIR SUPPORT) - I feel like the windows on the whole escalator area are too much of an obstacle for air support. It can be tough to line up an airstrike that strikes the enemy sufficiently and goes thru the window. The roof lines between the windows should be really small or none at all and you should be able to place an airstrike, even if a part of it would hit the roof line (I’m talking about Arty and Kira especially). Tho IMO, the lines should just be so small that an airstrike would ignore them. The area in front of the lift (on the top) should also be accessible to airstrike, but perhaps there should be a second window or something like that. Attackers also shouldn’t be able to place it without pushing forwards and expose themselves in the open. That said, I feel like this could be quite strong, so the “airstrikable” zone should only go far enough for mercs with 90 or 100 HP or more to survive in the corner.

(auwi) #16

OBJ 2 - GAS TUNNEL

I’ve suggested this before, but I think creating another entrance into the decon room would work well for attackers, making it more useable. Maybe the generator could instead open the view from the decon room instead? It would be something worth fighting over just like the other generator in the security room. In addition the pipe hole can be taken out to stop snipers from using it too well since the sightlines in both directions cover a lot of area.

XVlzzdO.jpg1920x1080

TO EVERYONE ELSE - It’s a lot easier usually to try and speak in images, it helps the map makers a lot!!

  • To open Underground for yourself in a single player game, press “~” to open console once you’ve started DB
  • In console, type “switchlevel obj_underground” to start a game on Underground
  • Once in game, type “spectate” to switch to a free cam spectating mode
  • Use “F12” to take screenshots of areas, you can also open the file location and take out these pictures and edit them in paint or photoshop.
(CommissarTyr) #17

Too easy for defenders to spawn camp via balcony

I don’t think defender access to balcony via medbay roof should be restricted but rather the advantages from being up there lessened.
Adding a sign to block sight can make it easier for attackers to run through to underneath the balcony
https://imgur.com/Ru5y06j
https://imgur.com/zovO9Cr
Shuttered Windows [blocks grenades but not bullets] in the elevator so attackers have partial cover to clear out the balcony before the doors open
https://imgur.com/3PxZRDK
Shorten distance to Elevator button marker being visible, makes it far too easy to notice attackers accessing elevator
https://imgur.com/TIBb7C3

Roof offers too much cover for defenders

Thin out these structures to make it harder to stand on and peek over and reduce side cover
https://imgur.com/xnHy0Un
https://imgur.com/HYzYg1F
Raise this slightly so you can’t crouch jump onto it
https://imgur.com/stcl5Xz
Make this route slightly easier or more obvious so there are more ways to engage roof
https://imgur.com/Zt4IjkO

There is not enough opportunities for Air Support

Break some of this glass to widen air support area
https://imgur.com/lDjDIC2
Air-support in this area is fine I feel, but it is hard to judge where exactly there is roof access when not looking straight up. Add shattered glass on the floor to make targeting easier
https://imgur.com/p3DVEag
Similarly position floodlight so it is highlighting the area where open roof allows air access
https://imgur.com/K0fkQxB
Shunt this yellow piping to the next window, makes airstriking the top of the escalators a bit too restricted
https://imgur.com/8Jwa7vD

Invisible Walls

Several instances of objects which are at jump height but not platformable
https://imgur.com/kYf5jEf https://imgur.com/0Jp91nz https://imgur.com/dzEHZoA
Raise piping or (re)move server box. Looks like you can jump on it but you fall into the horrible crawl to get out spot.
https://imgur.com/RUPn18O

Secondary Gas Route gives little advantage

Add cover to gas exit to give comparable cover to gen room, move it forward slightly to make it harder for defenders to jump back through
https://imgur.com/ylVAo91
https://imgur.com/BEvfVvn

Misc

Shunt this slightly, is causing a render bug
https://imgur.com/U2WDYGs
Repair through wall, though not useful

(Mc1412013) #18

@auwi said:
OBJ 2 - GAS TUNNEL

I’ve suggested this before, but I think creating another entrance into the decon room would work well for attackers, making it more useable. Maybe the generator could instead open the view from the decon room instead? It would be something worth fighting over just like the other generator in the security room. In addition the pipe hole can be taken out to stop snipers from using it too well since the sightlines in both directions cover a lot of area.

XVlzzdO.jpg1920x1080

TO EVERYONE ELSE - It’s a lot easier usually to try and speak in images, it helps the map makers a lot!!

  • To open Underground for yourself in a single player game, press “~” to open console once you’ve started DB
  • In console, type “switchlevel obj_underground” to start a game on Underground
  • Once in game, type “spectate” to switch to a free cam spectating mode
  • Use “F12” to take screenshots of areas, you can also open the file location and take out these pictures and edit them in paint or photoshop.

No do not remove my sniping perch where i cover c4 no no no

(itaih1) #19

The opening scene makes it look like fighting down the escalators is an objective on its own, when after 2 spawns the attackers automatically spawn down there. Maybe add a forward spawn to capture. This however will need to balance out with a slightly easier 3rd objective.

Additionally, Rhino in the plant site on attackers 1st is a guaranteed win.

(HELGA_bunga) #20

attackers can sniper and call airstrikes from their spawn on 3 rd obj, that is ridiculous