Underground Design Update - Issues Identified

[takenWasTaken]

I think that closing the doors in the second obj is useless tbh. anyone can easily jump over it.
I would like it to do something that gives more of an advantage/disadvantage. maybe it could activate a manual MG next to the generator that peaks out of the window (with the window size increasing of course).

[GatoCommodore]

@HELGA_bunga said:
attackers can sniper and call airstrikes from their spawn on 3 rd obj, that is ridiculous

you can also do put down airstrike in Dome 1st and 2nd objective from the spawn, its not a bad thing.

@takenWasTaken said:
I think that closing the doors in the second obj is useless tbh. anyone can easily jump over it.

jumping over it=/= running walljumping out of the spawn faster
the retractable gate does indeed slow down defender and potentially choke people trying to defuse.

Bushwhacker, Rhino, Thunder, Fragger, Snipers on attackers benefits greatly from this gate but not to the point of crippling the defender to the point of not being able to get out of the spawn. Exactly the point why its called secondary objective.

[OwynTyler]

What about:

**Sniper tower being pretty much useless? **

[Bashkov]

Disagree…

The only point I agree with strongly is the 2nd objective spawn points, they do seem to push defenders really far back really quickly sometimes without much reason.

The other points raised that I’ve seen so far just seem like people not understanding how to play the map…

Perhapppps changing the elevator at the 1st objective to a set of stairs might be okay, but people up there camping does not in any way stop the attacking team reaching the objective. It’s not like they only have melee weapons… Learn to aim? xD

Just my thoughts…

Underground is one of my favorite maps tbh!

xx

[teflonlove]

Too easy for defenders to spawn camp via balcony

Why not remove the balcony entirely? There is rarely something going in there that contributes to an interesting game. It’s either unused, defenders camp there and lock down the attacker spawn or some dumb attacker sniper camps there without actually hitting anyone. Occasionally attackers use it to clear defenders holding the roof, but the same can be achieved using nades, air strikes and laser from the ground.

[Grave_Knight]

Do wish the more unknown and lesser used tricks to move around were easier and more obvious. Like jumping up onto the storage containers in front of the ticket booth to get on the metal detectors and on the roof.

The back section of the first objective, the defender’s “sniper” post also needs to be made more useful.

[MegapiemanPHD]

OBJ1

The issue here is that the attacking team starts with a lot of height advantage but that advantage is automatically negated by the 2 corridors they are forced into. The area above the point is supposed to be for defending while the balcany is a counter to this. I’d suggest making the balcony accessible from high ground with easily defendable stairs leading down to the lower area. This way the attacking team doesn’t have an uphill battle to get to that spot. I’d also suggest having anything the defenders can use to parkour over to this area be lower than the balcony itself, that way attackers can use it to drop down but attackers can’t jump up to it.

Another issue with this area are the 2 corridors right after the attackers spawn stairs being long sightlines without much in the way of cover. They are just straight long hallways that snipers can easily camp. Make these routes less of a straight line and slap in some nice cover attackers can use. There’s also all that unused space below the attackers spawn that just seems pointless. Maybe redesign attackers spawn so that this area has a purpose.

The last thing this area needs is a 3rd way for attackers to leave spawn. Right now both exits from attackers spawn lead pretty much to the same place and can both be covered from the same location, this is not good. Attackers could use a 3rd route that goes around in a different way and leads to an exit that defenders have can’t all stand in one spot to cover. Maybe have a path that goes over the train on attackers left and wraps around to that lower area.

Also possible shorten the distance between attacker spawn and the first objective. Since it’s the first objective in the map, it should theoretically be one of the easier ones to complete with objectives becoming more difficult as the map advances.

Here’s a quick drawing of these ideas:

ROOF OFFERS TOO MUCH COVER FOR DEFENDERS

Just open the sky so that people can call in artillery or lasers or whatever. That should help.

SPAWN TRANSITIONS

For this you could probably just take the flag/pylon prop from the forward spawn on terminal, put it at the transition area, and have the attackers capture it like an objective point. That way people it’ll make sense when spawns change and people can see what is going on visually while also making that area a bit more interesting.

OBJ3

Part of the problem with this tunnel I feel is that players aren’t drawn to it. It’s so far out of the way compared to the other paths that people don’t think to use it instead of them. It’s also a dropdown path which means that anyone going in that direction is stuck over there and can’t easily retreat. This was done to try and balance that path so it’s not overpowered but it makes it less desirable. What also doesn’t help is that it’s so far away from the generator that controls the defenders doors. That generator room is a very sought after spot since having the doors closed is rather useful when it comes to planting the bomb and winning the map. This isn’t a bad thing but it does mean that the gas route needs something close or equally as interesting/important to draw players in that direction. I’d suggest shortening the path so it’s not so much of a round-a-bout and moving it closer to the other or moving around the stairs leading to the area infront of it making that path more obvious to attacking players. Keeping the dropdown is good but maybe having the exit lead to some decent highground over part of the final objective would make this path more desirable since it would be more useful when trying to plant or defend a bomb. Would have to do some play testing though to find the right balance so it doesn’t feel unfair.

That’s all the ideas I got for now. Hope it helps.

[NexDroid]

I really like the idea of forward spawn near escalators leading to second obj. Attackers would need to capture it in order to move defenders spawn to very back of second obj. It would add another obj to fight for

[frostyvampire]

@SD_AK said:
Adding a new objective into the middle of the map and having it function well without re-balancing the map is a very large undertaking, as the map is relatively balanced, adding new objectives would be a large scale change with unforeseeable changes to the balance.

But what if you added a one time forward spawn capture point to more maps
This includes:
Underground under elevators
Bridge after the EV passes the barricade
Trainyard after destroying first objective
You can find a place for it on almost all maps to encourage more defending of choke points, once the attackers capture the point, their spawn moves forward and the defenders CANNOT recapture it (unlike the forward spawn on Terminal that can be captured 100 times in one game)

[Wolven]

Since no one from the competitive side has spoken up yet…

OBJ 1 - BALCONY

Main issue is the elevator itself. Doesn’t matter if the elevator makes any noise or not, the fact that the only way to access the balcony from attacker’s side is from that elevator is the issue.

It’s incredibly easy to predict. I won’t get into the meta, but any decent team on defense can completely lock down the elevator.

Attackers need some variable speed at which to reach the balcony. A staircase is an easy suggestion, but something more creative would be nice.

This way attackers can vary up their strategy on taking balcony, can bait out molotovs/nades and can actually make a push…rather than just being handed to the defenders in a box.

OBJ 1 - ROOF

The issue here is once defenders are set up, there is no longer any flank route for the attackers. Defender roof control can cover two of the three lanes that attackers have to push from, within one FOV. Meaning one person can see both attacking lanes on their screen at the same time, while behind relative safety.

Defenders on roof are able to avoid crossfire from attackers by adjusting their positioning, whereas attackers are always open to at least two points of crossfire; the three points of crossfire being balcony, left roof, right roof.

High ground is a natural advantage, and an entire defending team is able to position themselves on high ground, with no flanking route from the attackers.

This also comes down to width of shooting angles. If elevator is locked down, then the defenders have wider angles on the attackers, compound with high ground and low cover for attackers and you get a meat-grinder.

Better access to balcony for attackers would help this, tbh I’d prefer to see a decent change to balcony while leaving roof relatively as is. Providing attackers with a proper flank route would make this more like the 1st obj on chapel.

Creating more points for arty to hit roof or a nader to bounce nades up there may be another thought.

TRANSITION

Tbh, this has always felt like a waste of time. Two decent teams going against each other and it’s nothing more than a two spawn wave intermission before the rest of the match actually happens.

If Obj 1 became much easier for attackers, then I wouldn’t mind some kind of event or objective to happen here, but I feel that would require some serious reworking of the layout and perhaps that’s not what’s being looked for in the thread.

Basically just a reason why this whole area needs to actually exist other than to prolong the match.

OBJ 2 (3?) - GAS TUNNEL

This could be strengthened for attackers, but if it is strengthened then there’s needs to be something given to the defenders. Otherwise this objective is going to become too attacker biased.

Something simple might be just making the railing facing the plant area a solid object rather than just a railing. Would give a better platform for the attackers to assault the plant area from.

Possibly open up the viewing area and give additional cover on the left (as attacker looking at plant area). Since right now, an attacker is always going to strafe back to their right since that’s their only area of cover.

Though I don’t think I’d make the railing solid AND add cover. Just ideas.

OBJ 2 (Is it 3?) - 'GLORY HOLE’

If the gas tunnel is strengthened for attackers, then I believe this needs to be cut off from attackers being able to snipe/arty/laser all the way back from their spawn.

Currently I would say Obj 2 is defender biased, at least until a plant happens. Once a plant goes down, then it’s actually fairly difficult for defenders to recover.

Perhaps remove this hole altogether and combine it with the gas tunnel and really widen the viewing area from the tunnel or have multiple points of viewing (aka shooting).

But then again, that may make shutting the doors from gen room even more important.

Anyways, just my thoughts on it since I haven’t seen anyone from the competitive side put up anything.

Happy fragging,
Wolven

[qazmlpok]

As others have said, the balcony needs fixing. I’d say just make it impossible to jump there from the roof. I don’t think anything else needs to be done for that.

I personally disagree on the airsupport complaint. Arty, at least, is perfectly fine. Underground is his worst map, but he’s still fairly strong, and does gain some element of surprise for the areas where air support does work. This includes all 3 objectives, including the escalators areas. I don’t use skyhammer or kira as much, so I can’t really speak for them. Widening some of the sky areas might make it easier for skyhammer to call in a strike, at least.

The only issue I have with the gas tunnel approach is that it’s possible for the defenders to trickjump through there and flank the attackers. It’s difficult and I can’t do it, but I have seen it done - if someone on defense is capable of this, then it’s usually detrimental to enable the tunnel, but there’s no good way to turn it off once it’s on.

(Yes, I’m aware removing that jump lowers the skill ceiling for the map. But it’s kinda ridiculous to have a potentially detrimental secondary objective)

An actual objective for controlling the escalators would be nice. I envision it as something like the terminal spawn, but a) over a wider area (i.e. anyone past the elevator or so, or anywhere on the final level, counts as capturing it) and b) unable to be recaptured. The latter is to make it into an inevitability, and hopefully not disrupt balance too much. I feel the map is balanced overall, if rocky, so making a new capturable point too easy to contest would make things too easy for defenders.

Alternatively, the 1st objective could be turned back into a hacking objective, like I’ve seen on Alpha videos. There’s too many c4 objectives as it is, so it’d be an interesting change of pace.

Please make the c4 objectives give bonus game mode xp. Right now, attackers can get 2000 xp for primary objectives, since there’s only 2 real objectives. Other maps like Terminal give 3000, simply because there’s more stuff to destroy. I can’t imagine a capturable point being worth a full 1200 if it is added, so even if it is the existing c4s should be worth 1250 each, at least. This is a super minor change but it’d be really helpful.

Also, change the “medbay” back to “pump controls”. Or at least give an explanation on why this thing is important, and why it clears the lower areas.

[LIGHT_BAGHEERA]

@teflonlove said:
Too easy for defenders to spawn camp via balcony

Why not remove the balcony entirely? There is rarely something going in there that contributes to an interesting game. It’s either unused, defenders camp there and lock down the attacker spawn or some dumb attacker sniper camps there without actually hitting anyone. Occasionally attackers use it to clear defenders holding the roof, but the same can be achieved using nades, air strikes and laser from the ground.

it’s such a powerful spot to have control on it, that would diffenetly change how we attack/deffend that map

[fubar1]

Enjoy the glory that is mspaint

Pipes. Pipes everywhere. The pipes make it incredibly frustrating for attackers to ever engage in any combat as you’re constantly forced into having to jump onto elevated areas, or off, while maneuvering the map.
They happen to be just about at every choke too. The problem with that is the fact that you’re inflicting yourself with a higher spread trying to engage the defense, you’ll always lose these engages to the simple fact that you’re not able to shoot back - at all. Max spread vs no spread stationary position engagements is a incredibly bad map design.

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All of these areas make combat utterly frustrating to either side, pipes need to be seriously reworked, removed, or have their collision reduced. Alternative ramps leading up to them at various sections may help too, but in general any map that has had pipes in the past was always plagued by the aforementioned issues, which made it unfun and unplayable.

Elevator…

Elevator is a death trap, it needs to be replaced with a wide staircase leading up the balcony. While we’re at it, remove the pipes on either side of the attacker spawn exit too. They serve absolutely no purpose other than forcing an even tighter choke.

Remove the ceiling above the balcony, or fit it with leaks/holes to allow for arties/lasers/airstrikes to be able to contest this area. Anything else is pointless, the way the 2 spawnexit chokes on the attacking side works is that you simply can’t, ever, be in a position or angle that allows you to actively shoot or spam the people on the balcony without being spammed or shot at from 3 angles yourself. Allowing me to toss an airstrike up there, I can throw and forget while creating ample of room for my elevator (now ramp people) to actively contest.

Also lower the sign on the rooftop to the point where head hitboxes will show when crouched, alternatively replace the entire section with glass. It’s an incredibly awful choke to attack into given that you’re at max spread (yay pipes) and literally have no info/sight before blindly rushing into that place. Allowing attackers to poke or see the rough positioning of the defense will aid this immensely.

Widen this path, a single nader/fletcher/jav/fragger/stoker can indefinitely hold this angle with spam use at no risk what-so-ever.
Also remove these shitty gaps abilities fall into.

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This entire area can and should be removed. It serves absolutely no purpose. It’s a 90 second “wait here and contest this pointlessly for spawn transition” area. All it does is aid in confusion to newer players that don’t yet understand spawns.

Ramps please… Or just… remove the god damn pipe already.

Drag these stairs further out. This is another “rush blindly into a choke of sadness” scenario for the attackers.

[SirOrionDrake]

OBJ3
Imo, from what I could observe from my
hours of gameplay that players mostly go to the generator room. Sometimes, even with the C4 planted on the main objective… sigh
Maybe, making the gas tunnel already clear for the attackers, and make it so that the defenders have to repair it in order to make it gassy again.

Another solution would be making that crawlspace on the roof, just above the end of the second escalators, extend to the C4, making it another alternative to the attackers.

From the defenders last spawn point, to the left side of the map there are some crates directly in front of the exit of the gas tunnel. Placing a sentry there is a great thing to do, but it can be shot from the generator room. Making it impossible to then would enhance the defence possibilities, as would making the sentries having more line of fire towards the main objective. The attackers still could shoot it from the other site of the map, though, and it could be done that they could shoot it from above as well, from the extended crawlspace.

OBJ1
There should be a more direct way for the defenders to reach the roof. Maybe some stairs.
Or make the roof open: air support can be suseful where it matteres and witht some battlements around it. Maybe leave it with just a estrategic cover for the defenders.

INVISIBLE WALLS
As for them, I only have issues with not being able to jump directly from the escalators to the exit of the elevator. Which is totally understandable, but since it has been brought up, here’s my 2 cents. Can’t remember any other issue I had with them.

BALCONY
I personally tend to focus on planting or defending on the ground level, so I don’t quite use the balcony. In any case, maybe a gap from the elevator exit, as been said by some, with a walljump maybe, would solve the issues. Said jump could be provided with some direct cover directly in front of the elevator exit, so that snipers can’t pick people when the doors opene.

A more drastic approach would be making ANOTHER balcony on the opposite side. It would be quite interesting, although quite effort intensive on the dev’s side. ^^’

SPAWN TRANSITIONS
I may have gotten used to it, but sure, it can be confusing to new players.
I’d suggest some sort of one-time spawn point capture, or generator repair, to make it clear for both teams that a transition is going to happen.
(By the way, spawn point captures are great! Please don’t take it away from Terminal! Add MORE of them in other maps!)

[B_Montiel]

I totally agree about the balcony being a too strong vantage point for defenders on first objective. It mainly comes from too many sightlines on lower grounds. Maybe putting barriers/glass walls/grilling to reduce the view from the roof-balcony pass.

There are also too few counters on a Fragger sitting there, as frag grenades are easier to throw on lower grounds, and few abilities can counter his positioning there. I’d like to see the ceiling destroyed over balcony to allow bigger fire support usage there, thus leaving people sitting there vulnerable to airstrikes, artillery and laser.

[Album] Imgur

[ArsonistCow]

@SD_AK said:

@LifeupOmega said:
Still feel that escalators should be a one time flag cap for a moving spawn instead of the two spawn rule currently in effect. It’s both more interesting (adding what is essentially a third major objective) and more informative than what we have now. Sure this isn’t just visual, but it would most likely make the map less annoying to play on in the transition from first to second, and would only require a player to reach the flag and stay on it for a short duration to move on.

Adding a new objective into the middle of the map and having it function well without re-balancing the map is a very large undertaking, as the map is relatively balanced, adding new objectives would be a large scale change with unforeseeable changes to the balance.

It certainly could be a large undertaking, yes, but done well it will make the map a lot better. Adding a one-time capture point there makes it so clear to the players what is going on and adds an objective to a part of the map completely devoid of objectives.
Don’t go for a sh*tty bandaid fix by somehow telling players about the spawn-shift, make it a part of an objective instead. It’s worth the extra manhours, bandaids almost never hold up well.

[PorkyPerson]

Upper Floor Spawn Camping
It seems like the biggest problem for spawn camping is that the roof and balcony can see both spawn exits simultaneously. There shouldn’t be covered areas that can see all the traffic coming from spawn. From the roof you can even see people running to the elevator.

Make it possible to run underneath the balcony on either side with no visibility from that side. Additionally, block line of sight from roof to the spawn tunnels or make it so you have to jump or stand without cover.

Middle Floor
Middle floor seems pretty balanced, especially since attackers start spawning there. There are three paths without line of sight, so there is crossfire and flanking opportunity.

When you get to the lower escalator it’s a little unintuitive where you need to stand to get a view down. If you stand directly at the top the ceiling blocks your view. Reducing the angle of the lower escalators would fix it, but it’s not a huge problem.

Lower Floor Gas Tunnel
The gas tunnel entrance could be a little closer to the other paths for attackers to make rotating easier, but that would also make it easier for defenders to flank.

Most of the action ends up being the generator room, because of the small window with good line of sight to the objective and only one flank route. You could make the gas tunnel much more lucrative by giving it cover and line of sight to the generator room and line of sight to half of the objective. You could also give it better flanking access for attackers.

[Vilham]

Hey guys, thanks for all the great ideas and feedback, we are collating it at the moment and deciding what solutions we want to try out.

[LifeupOmega]

@fubar said:
Drag these stairs further out. This is another “rush blindly into a choke of sadness” scenario for the attackers.

And don’t forget that nades and such can get trapped in the walls of that corridor too

[cuthbert1]

[Album] Imgur

Attacker spawn side escalators don’t have safety rails. Do not take safety precautions too lightly!