Tighten spread, reduce damage

(Apoc) #1

I have a simple proposal, i want the bullets from my gun, to go where i am aiming.

As it is, the spread is bad, its very bad, you are trying to balance weapons by making them inaccurate, please, please, tighten the spread so this becomes more like an fps and less “roll the dice for headshots”.

This would make people die quicker, which isnt that great a thing so i propose you reduce the bullet damage so it takes a decent number on target to kill, so there isnt any instant kill effect.

This illustration curtosy of shirosae shows the advantages of smaller spread:

This player is a good shot:

This player is not so good a shot:

Who wins? The person with better aim.

Now let’s try the same thing again with massive spread:

This player is a good shot:

This player is not so good a shot:

Who wins? Whoever the diceroll favours.

As you can see, a smaller spread means there is a higher skill ceiling, with large spread you can get the best possible result (headshots) by aiming in the general direction of the upper body, sometimes not even on target. Smaller spread means you are rewarded for accuracy, and allows players to get gradually better at aiming and improve their own skills instead of hitting the low skill ceiling brink has at the moment after a short time of playing.

This thread isnt an argument about the importance of aim, or how aim is better than tactics or anything like that. This is a simple thread asking for something simple. Nothing to do with how important you think shooting is in the game, or if you think its realistic or not. Simply, would you like the spread of weapons to be tighter, if damage was reduced so the speed to kill players stayed the same?

(wolfnemesis75) #2

The new update is not out for all systems yet, so its hard to judge what the spread will be like. Give it another month, and it’d make more sense to discuss finite weapon tweaks. We all still have yet to experience the latest update.

(injx) #3

Remove spread. This is supposed to be a computer game, not a lottery.

(nephandys) #4

I really can’t argue with tightening the spread at all.

(noupperlobeman) #5

[QUOTE=Apoc;346200]I have a simple proposal, i want the bullets from my gun, to go where i am aiming.

As it is, the spread is bad, its very bad, you are trying to balance weapons by making them inaccurate, please, please, tighten the spread so this becomes more like an fps and less “roll the dice for headshots”.

This would make people die quicker, which isnt that great a thing so i propose you reduce the bullet damage so it takes a decent number on target to kill, so there isnt any instant kill effect.

This thread isnt an argument about the importance of aim, or how aim is better than tactics or anything like that. This is a simple thread asking for something simple. Nothing to do with how important you think shooting is in the game, or if you think its realistic or not. Simply, would you like the spread of weapons to be tighter, if damage was reduced so the speed to kill players stayed the same?[/QUOTE]

Change nothing.

You have choices, and the choices you make will impact your success rate:

-Aim down sights. Have more accurate shots, at the cost of movement speed.

-Hipfire. Keep movement speed intact, but sacrifice accuracy.

You already have tools at your disposal. Just because you have to make sacrifices for your more preferred playstyle doesn’t mean the design needs to be changed.

(Apoc) #6

[quote=noupperlobeman;346209]Change nothing.

You have choices, and the choices you make will impact your success rate:

-Aim down sights. Have more accurate shots, at the cost of movement speed.

-Hipfire. Keep movement speed intact, but sacrifice accuracy.

You already have tools at your disposal. Just because you have to make sacrifices for your more preferred playstyle doesn’t mean the design needs to be changed.[/quote]

Aiming down sights with most smgs makes the spread worse, meaning smgs are hipfire only.

Assault rifles have a hillariously huge spread hipfired meaning aiming down sights is the only real option as it actually works with ARs

So no we have no options, we have weapon choices. And the problem is that the SMGs that force us to hipspray have huge spread hisprayed, and the ARs that force us to ironsight are more accurate but not enough to make ironsighting anywhere other than long range effective.

(wolfnemesis75) #7

[QUOTE=noupperlobeman;346209]Change nothing.

You have choices, and the choices you make will impact your success rate:

-Aim down sights. Have more accurate shots, at the cost of movement speed.

-Hipfire. Keep movement speed intact, but sacrifice accuracy.

You already have tools at your disposal. Just because you have to make sacrifices for your more preferred playstyle doesn’t mean the design needs to be changed.[/QUOTE]

I agree with this as well. Lots of the gun mechanics are by purposeful, and thought-out design. Keeps the focus squarely on objectives and teamwork. You are only as strong as your team unity. Crossfire, and team fire plus coordinated strikes should be the methodology. Practice it until its second nature.

(Apoc) #8

By removing the shooting part you are removing a dimension to the game.

People are still going to do better as a team, they will still do objectives. People arent going to think “oh my bullets actually go where i aim…better run in the wrong direction and not do the objective!” with more accuracy and less damage, crossfire and coordination becomes even more important. At the moment random large spread means anything can happen regardless of crossfire, as its hard to crossfire someone when your bullets dont hit them

(Singh400) #9

None, nah I’m kidding. I’m just trolling you Apoo.

Tighter spread, less damage please!

(wolfnemesis75) #10

[QUOTE=Apoc;346226]By removing the shooting part you are removing a dimension to the game.

People are still going to do better as a team, they will still do objectives. People arent going to think “oh my bullets actually go where i aim…better run in the wrong direction and not do the objective!” with more accuracy and less damage, crossfire and coordination becomes even more important. At the moment random large spread means anything can happen regardless of crossfire, as its hard to crossfire someone when your bullets dont hit them[/QUOTE]

I played all last night…the bullets go where I point them, and the enemy goes down. I choose attachments, and weapons that are accurate; I don’t choose weapons solely on how much damage they deal. That aside, its more about being part of a Squad or a SWAT team than a lone ranger. Besides, my original point still stands: you have to work as a team. If you are out on an Island waving your wand, you are gonna get beat sometimes. But if you roll with a brother, and flank or catch a dude in a crossfire, odds are pretty high they go down. Team Fire.

(INF3RN0) #11

Very much want the importance of precise aim tracking back, but just an FYI though you might miss out on the votes of the thousands who uninstalled Brink and no longer visit the forums in the past months. The sheer amount of leavers really ought to be a clear enough statement on this subject though…

(INF3RN0) #12

Shoot at a wall and look at the bullet impacts. ET fans want more than just tracking the upper body with spray, which cuts the aim skill cap in half.

(Mustang) #13

Was about to post this myself, so QFT

(wolfnemesis75) #14

You said ET fans…but this is Brink. Different game. In this one you have to find your preferred style. The weapons already deal low damage, so it doesn’t wash to lower the damage. You can iron site and get better accuracy, or choose more accurate guns with less recoil, spread, and attachments that improve accuracy, right? Why not try to use the tools provided to find the best you can make of it, rather than the perfect bullet tracking? I think adapting to something means finding the inherent limitations and maximizing the most effective approach when there is no perfect choice. Rather than trying to wish the game made easier or more controlled, try to create tactics that maximize your strengths and the most effective weapons for you.

(INF3RN0) #15

Um… how many times have people brought up the SD quotes that this game was supposed to be a sequel to ET in its “game mechanics”. Do you even know how the ET style gun game worked? The point is that they cut out too much content that had already proven to be some of the MAIN selling points for their games. That is why every time someone like yourself says “don’t like it, just deal with it or leave” it does absolutely nothing for the future of this game or SD next titles. Brink killed off a lot of SD original fan base, it didn’t attract the main streamers, but at least they got you.

(Apoc) #16

Your missing the point, we dont want it easier, its already easy, we want a higher skill ceiling. At the moment if you track someones upper body thats all, sometimes not even that is required. This is a relatively easy level to reach, especially for pc players, by tightening spread, you put the emphasis on tracking enemies heads, a much smaller harder to aim at target, raising the skill ceiling.

You say to adapt. The adaptions your talking about i can make in 5 minutes. They require no skill, they just require being aware of how bad the weapons are.

(noupperlobeman) #17

[QUOTE=Apoc;346268]Your missing the point, we dont want it easier, its already easy, we want a higher skill ceiling. At the moment if you track someones upper body thats all, sometimes not even that is required. This is a relatively easy level to reach, especially for pc players, by tightening spread, you put the emphasis on tracking enemies heads, a much smaller harder to aim at target, raising the skill ceiling.

You say to adapt. The adaptions your talking about i can make in 5 minutes. They require no skill, they just require being aware of how bad the weapons are.[/QUOTE]

I just don’t understand all this “raising the skill ceiling” talk.

Let me get this straight. You want to make shooting more accurate, but that act itself raises the skill required to be successful?

Can’t you already aim for the head? Are you saying your skill ceiling isn’t high enough to aim for the head as it is? If the current system is easier and you are better than the rest, why does it need changing? Why don’t you just go ahead and aim for the head if you are good enough, and leave system the way it is?

I’m not being facetious, I’m actually trying to understand this argument.

(shirosae) #18

What’s the refire rate like? The videos I’ve seen suggest that they’d gone up to almost lolCOD levels (though some were quite old).

Would tighter spread & lower refire rate work?

(Apoc) #19

[quote=noupperlobeman;346274]I just don’t understand all this “raising the skill ceiling” talk.

Let me get this straight. You want to make shooting more accurate, but that act itself raises the skill required to be successful?

Can’t you already aim for the head? Are you saying your skill ceiling isn’t high enough to aim for the head as it is? If the current system is easier and you are better than the rest, why does it need changing? Why don’t you just go ahead and aim for the head if you are good enough, and leave system the way it is?

I’m not being facetious, I’m actually trying to understand this argument.[/quote]

My argument is that in the games current state, aiming at the head and aiming at the chest yield the same damage, often chest does more, as the spread means bullets dont actually go directly where you are aiming, so aiming at the chest at the moment means you get just as much damage on enemy as aiming at the head, thereby removing the need to track the head, and thereby lowering the skill ceiling to being able to track their upper body.

If spread was reduced then aiming at the chest would hit the chest and aiming at the head would hit the head, instead of hitting anything within a metre of where your aiming. Thus making aiming at the head beneficial and increasing the skill ceiling.

Here in another form:

With small spread

Aim at head > aim at chest
Aim at chest > aim at feet
Aim at legs > missing by a small amount

[U][B]With large spread

[/B][/U]Aim at head = Aim at chest
Aim at chest > aim at legs
Aim at legs = missing by small amount (as you will hit them anyway, and probably in a higher damage area)

Can you see how with large spread you get best possible results easier than with smaller spread, thereby being easier to master, and having a lower skill ceiling?

(Mustang) #20

Hmm, what’s a good way to explain this…
Let’s try some hypothetical situations with made-up numbers

As the game plays at the moment consider aiming at center body mass, a player with bad aim has an average kill time of 5 seconds and a player with good aim has an average kill time of 4 seconds
Considering aiming at the head the bad player has an average kill time of 7 seconds and the good player an average kill time of 6 seconds
Why does aiming at the head result in slower kills for both players?
The reason, the spread is so great that most bullets go wide of the target, this makes aiming for the head nonsensical (as it results in slower kills)

Now lets look at what happens when we reduce spread
For center mass, bad player kills in 2.5 seconds, good player kills in 2 seconds
For headshots, bad player kills in 2 seconds, good player kills in 1.5 second

But wait, this isn’t CoD, we like to have time to react when being shot at, how to fix this?
The best two options (in my opinion) are to increase player health or reduce weapon damage
Changing player health probably has more knock-on effects requiring balancing elsewhere, so lets consider reduced weapon damage
For center mass, bad player kills in 5 seconds, good player kills in 4 seconds
For headshots, bad player kills in 4 seconds, good player kills in 3 second

Ah fantastic, center mass kill times are back where they started, headshots are worth going for again as they result in faster kills, a lot more bullets are actually going where you aim making people feel like they are back in control of their game, players that bother to aim are rewarded with faster kills so now everyone has something to work on etc.

So this raising the skill level thing can basically be summarised as rewarding good aim and making headshots worth going for