thoughts about thunder and fragger

(BananaSlug) #1

fragger is strong merc with powerful ability, and thunder ia strong merc with weak ability.
soo what if thunder would be overall strong merc with weak ability?
imagine 180hp merc with good weapons but weak ability, maybe even NERF THE FLASHBANGS
i am not sure about his lmg, ppl are saying that it needs a buff but idk

fragger still would be an option because of the grenade, nader still would be good with her lactic
and thunder would become just strong merc, that would be really good in duels and tanking damage

(Dawnlazy) #2

160HP is fine, I’d rather have Fragger nerfed some more. 135-140 HP should do it.

(LifeupOmega) #3

The problem with Thunder is that his (inconsistent) ability requires you to get to the point of impact fast enough to capitalise on the detonation. He’s too slow to do so.

And then there’s the issue with his ridiculous hitbox size.

(PleasantWheat) #4

Yeah sometimes i feel like hes easier to hit than rhino. Goddamn fatasses.

(CCP115) #5

We need to rework Thunder into a hit and run merc, fast and efficient.

110-120 HP, with incredibly strong weapons and high speed, and keep his flashbang the way it currently is. Now we have an incredibly fast point man, who can be incredibly useful if played the right way, and subpar if played incorrectly.

(SaulWolfden) #6

His LMG is the first thing that needs to be buffed since he’s going to be relying on his weapons for kills no matter how much they buff his ability (it’s not a kill ability). Technically even a slight improvement to his grenade destroying deployables rather than simply disabling them could improve him. Sprinting and jumping should be disabled so they would escape if the Thunder just fails or they outmaneuver with just the normal/slowed movement speed.

(bizarreRectangle) #7

The concussion nades really need some love. It barely stuns (which aren’t all that effective) and the flash is not that great. You can see your hud which gives you a sense of direction, not to mention your minimap.

Maybe his lmg could get some small buffs, nothing big otherwise it would be op.

(BananaSlug) #8

@CCP115 that is not a bad idea… but i think we have enough fast mercs, but on the other hand he could finally be effective with his concussion granades

(LifeupOmega) #9

I dunno about his LMG. It’s got the same TTK as the K-121 within a .1 margin, but still feels weaker overall. I’m still very mixed on it.

I wonder how much a 1 damage increase would do considering it has an RPM of 725, upping the 11/22 to 12/24 would be substantial.

(Tanker_Ray) #10

There goes someone who finally understands my idea. I am so damn happy right now.

While everybody is concentrating the god damn conc nade, the most important thing is Thunder himself getting strong.

HP is most terrible part of him, and the second thing is MK.46. His HP is enough??? are you f-ing kidding me?? with THAT size?

Hell, he at least needs the damn 180 first, then the next thing is MK.46.

The reason why Thunder users, others who faced Thunder before whined so much about the conc nade was because Thunder himself was way too vulnerable, couldn’t do nothing with the damn weak machine gun but throwing super annoying conc nade for every 17 sec, and those who suffer with flashbangs for every damn 17sec were all in pain.

I can’t understand why everyone is only focusing on the damn conc nade all the freakin time.

All it needs is the roll back of sensitivity decrease concussion, and increase the cool down to at least 25 sec. Or, I also prefer the previous @Redcap 's idea of completely removing the flashbang effect and leaving the concussion only.

The reason why Thunder had such a hard time killing the concussed/flashed enemies is NOT he is slow, but he has such a low firepower to mow down enemies in that short time. That’s why using Stark or Timik with the Thunder makes you comfortable.

Like I said numerous times, and as @BananaSlug knows this very clearly, Thunder is more like Rhino-ish merc, but with one supporting ability and strong basic stats like Rhino has.
Not like Fragger and Nader with other strong damaging abilities that has no problem using shared weapons except the K-121.

At least he has the conc for supporting abilities, so he needs to be a bit weaker than Rhino. MK.46 deserves best DPS among the whole weapon EXCEPT the minigun(may be around 150DPS is enough since machine gun has no problem shooting far distances), Thunder has to have enough max hp to soak damage.

160HP is ±40 between Rhino and Fire support merc(120+40=160+40=200), not Fragger and Rhino. He at least deserves over 175, 180.

(Reddeadcap) #11

[quote=“LifeupOmega;145243”]I dunno about his LMG. It’s got the same TTK as the K-121 within a .1 margin, but still feels weaker overall. I’m still very mixed on it.

I wonder how much a 1 damage increase would do considering it has an RPM of 725, upping the 11/22 to 12/24 would be substantial.[/quote]

It’s really the LMG’s besides the inconsistent stunning on his grenades.

The K-121 was Thunder’s original LMG so he could fire at enemies at a safe distance while they’re stunned along with serving as a good damage dealer in a head on fight.

Health/speed as @ThunderPro points it out is also a huge factor for his huge size.

The Mk46 on the other hand is good at shredding people’s health away, at close range. it was obviously Fragger’s gun, best used on those injured by a frag nade.

It even shows them holding their original LMGs in their artwork and character selection screen so one has to wonder why Splash Damage swapped their LMGs, there’s the fact that the K-121 has been tweaked so much that it’s original incarnation doesn’t even hold a canal to how it is now, that said, the Mk46 is pretty much a shadow of it’s former self.

One just has to hope that these get sorted this month or by the next merc release in March.

(LifeupOmega) #12

[quote=“Redcap;145284”][quote=“LifeupOmega;145243”]I dunno about his LMG. It’s got the same TTK as the K-121 within a .1 margin, but still feels weaker overall. I’m still very mixed on it.

I wonder how much a 1 damage increase would do considering it has an RPM of 725, upping the 11/22 to 12/24 would be substantial.[/quote]

The K-121 was Thunder’s original LMG so he could fire at enemies at a safe distance while they’re stunned along with serving as a good damage dealer in a head on fight.

The Mk46 on the other hand is good at shredding people’s health away, at close range. it was obviously Fragger’s gun, best used on those injured by a frag nade.[/quote]

Yeah, I get that. I always questioned their choices to switch the weapons around when they were clearly suited for their original users.

Still stands though, that we have to work with what we have now, and honestly I can only suggest a buff to Thunder’s movement, his health, or his LMG as a starting point.

(BrazenXXGold) #13

This post made me want to buy thunder :smiley:

(Amerika) #14

[quote=“LifeupOmega;145074”]The problem with Thunder is that his (inconsistent) ability requires you to get to the point of impact fast enough to capitalise on the detonation. He’s too slow to do so.

And then there’s the issue with his ridiculous hitbox size.[/quote]

Christ, I hate his hitbox. It’s just gigantic.

He has some minor issues but his main issue, to me, is all of the situations you’d want to use a Flashbang in are the same situations you’d want to use a grenade. Sure, the flashbang might have an impact on somebody further away but almost always you can see it coming due to them removing the priming from it and turn at least partially making it close to worthless for anybody experienced or even anybody who has played CS. But buffing his FB would be a nightmare in a pub setting (which you have to consider for any change).

So yeah, buffing his movement speed, decrease hitbox, mess around with the LMG or just make him a bit more beefy is probably their only options.

(Tanker_Ray) #15

@BrazenXXGold

I promise, reality hits you hard. Really, it does.

Well, I won’t deny he is good at killing lower skilled player than you.

@Amerika

‘Forceful frontline point man with lots of health and lots of firepower.’ is what meet the merc section explains about him.

I honestly can’t understand why people complain about his movement speed since he is heavy infantry(He even confirms it with his own quote.). I mean, no one complains about Rhino being slow and gigantic. It’s that natural. I can clearly see his main problem is not having ‘high firepower’ like he was supposed to, and ‘lots of health’ which is super absurd that his HP is only 160. He is supposed to soak damage, spray high DPS.

Buffing conc nade only is the worst idea that SD can pull out like you said. With that short 17sec cool? no. Always thought the pre-nerf conc nade with sensitivity decrease was quite OP with 17 sec, even while Thunder was in bad state.

Vicious Cycle will happen again with this state.

Thunder player : Can’t get in to a fight without successful concussion, because of ridiculously low HP and low firepower. Has to throw a couple more and more, til you catch the safe free-dealing situation.

Players against Thunder : Fxcking flash bang explodes every 17 sec. Doesn’t always get killed because of the flash, or directly killed by Thunder, but so damn annoying that Thunder keeps throwing it til he dies.

This is all literally all normal Thunders do, for good results. Keep throwing the damn thing, only seek for the safe situation to free-deal, and if fails? Thunder dies out so quickly. Can’t even do the role as Assault, but one sneaky rat.

Killing someone who’s worse than you? getting Godlike with Thunder? Anyone can do this. People just never understand this is the matter of good result’s consistency… Stoker and Fragger is always stable, which means they are also useful when losing. Facing someone as good as you, Thunder is going to touch its limit so hard. That’s why I only pick Thunder when I underestimate enemies, or with good medics(Well don’t forget Stoker and Fragger, Rhino is better than Thunder with good medics…Damn Reality.).

Can’t even understand why someone keeps saying he is alright.

Edit: Sorry Amerika, I wasn’t ranting on you. I went slightly off-topic. apologize.

(Amerika) #16

I actually thought you agreed with most everything I said but in a more explained way. Thunder is basically the bridge between Fragger and Rhino but he shares more faults that Rhino has than the good traits that Fragger has. Making him more useful than Rhino overall but not as good of a specialist as Rhino while also not being as good of an overall choice that fits almost every situation which is where Fragger is.

So he fits the overall design well of being the bridge character but that doesn’t actually make him as useful as he should/could be.

If this game was designed around 6v6 I think Thunder could find a place in the meta. But at 5v5 he’s just outclassed by other choices in overall or specific situations IMO.

(BananaSlug) #17

@Amerika yes but making every class comparable to other is nearly impossible, there will always be better pics, but he at least would be cool for pubs like proxy, phantom.
I dont want speed buf because we would get another fragger,
my solution is buff his health, make the hit boxes smaller and buff his lmg
soo his lmg and k 121, would be like kek 10 and hochfir
i hope someone from dev team will read that discussion because that is what should be done a while ago :confused:
also is his backpack counting as hitbox ?

(Amerika) #18

Yup, I know. Not every class is going to be Fragger-status useful in both pubs and competitive. I am OK with this and understand that it’s not possible. Just like some of my favorite fighting game characters don’t have the tools to deal with some of the better characters and you simply have to switch or specialize and muddle through haha.

I can understand buffing his LMG if it needs a buff but that’s not his only weapon. Buffing him through the LMG only shouldn’t even be considered…especially if mercs get access to other weapons in the future. Hell, I’d wager round 2 of loadout cards (which are coming) will have Fragger get the MK46 and Thunder get the K121. So those guys should be buffed/nerfed independently of the users.

Speed/hp/hitbox size/flashbang (not a fan of that one) are all ways to make him at least stand more on his own. Give him 10 more speed, give him 10 more HP and make his hitbox a bit smaller and he might become viable in competitive. However, that might also make him a pub monster too.

Uggh, there just aren’t enough dials to turn here for proper “balance”. It’s too bad mercs don’t have 3-4 abilities apiece that can all be tuned for balancing.

(Dawnlazy) #19

See the problem I have with that is how one of the reasons why Fragger is so retardedly overpowered is how having to fight a guy with 150HP and K-121/M4 is extremely disadvantageous. Aside from his underwhelming ability, Thunder at the moment is also gimped in the primary weapon selection department since he gets a bad Kek-10 with more bullets and a bad M4 (both of which are weapons that need to be given some attention by the devs). But do take a moment to consider how crazy a guy with 180HP and powerful weapons could be to fight against, especially with a Sawbonez pocketing him. Heck it would already be awful just with the S92 (an amazing card that nearly makes Thunder viable on its own) - 180HP with the Stark, Drilled and Unshakeable. Ugh.

I don’t want Thunder to become another lame merc like Fragger, so reducing Fragger’s tankiness a bit would make the current 160 HP better just by comparison, so Fragger could be the merc with the stronger ability but weaker stats and Thunder the ultimate 1v1mefegit merc but with a weaker ability - especially with a buff to the MK46 (needs more accuracy IMO), a rework of the Timik to make it something other than a bad M4 and a slight improvement to his concussion grenade.

(solace_) #20

i would like to see thunder become the more mobile tank character. increase his speed by say 10 points, increase his health by about 10 points, and decrease his hit box by maybe 10-15%. And his concussion grenades need to be buffed somehow, or new effects added. That being said, they could remove the flash effect, buff the EMP/ stun effect, and maybe reduce the cooldown slightly or leave it where it is. Or even perhaps he should receive a new ability. I dont know guys, just throwin some ideas into the pot.

Thinking about this more now I realize that he is pretty much the MW2 juggernaut. Give him the body armour. It would make for such a cool character who is better at taking damage than dealing.

Maybe thunder could receive some sort of body armour like his character model is so that he each bit of damage he takes up until a certain point is reduced until the body armor breaks and has to recharge. Maybe it would reduce explosive damage only. Which would be really nice considering the number of mercs with explosives in the game.

Thinking about it now, he needs an M246 (cant remember name) buff. I would say maybe a bit of damage in return for a bit more recoil maybe. Either that or a clip size buff and a fire rate increase.