The Truth

(V1cK_dB) #101

[QUOTE=stealth6;419428]Some randomness is needed to appeal to a larger audience. It’s fun to have an ET or RTCW remake for people who played those games a lot, or plan to play a lot. But if you’re the guy who can only play a few hours a week and keep getting a score of 1-12 then you’re probably not going to stick around for long.

So instead of saying why aren’t you making a remake, it was perfect. Why not come up with ways to give casuals a reason to keep playing, but limit it so it doesn’t ruin the experience of players that want to hone their skills and become a one man army. (Or in other words what small things could they change to W:ET / RTCW to give new players a shot too?)[/QUOTE]

You’re making the assumption that people wouldn’t like RTCW gunplay and movement. You could be right but we don’t know because it’s never happened. They already tried the casual route with Brink. The results weren’t good. You can’t half ass it. You can’t make a halfway competitive game and then incorporate a bunch of casual elements.

Either the game is a competitive game…or it’s not. All of the talk that SD was doing (Chet I believe was his name) before Brink launched would have you believe that they are about competitive games. That’s why people got excited about Brink. They tried to appeal to a wider audience at the same time. It failed. Why? Because if you are going to do both …both the competitive and casual aspects better be top notch. Brink had a top notch class based system, good weapon selection with below average gunplay that didn’t differentiate itself from the competition.

I never said make a RTCW remake btw. I want the gunplay and movement to be similar to RTCW. I don’t mind a few additional guns as long as you can customize matches that includes the ability to add/remove weapons. That would solve it. For those that want to camp in a corner for 10 mins and get 4 cheap kills(and go 4-10 and be a terrible teammate)…hey…they can get their 1 shot kill shotgun to someone’s back GREAT! For those that want competitive matches…they can setup custom matches.

(V1cK_dB) #102

Brink tried this route. They actually tried to casual it up so much they were against k/d ratios. Instead they said, “press 1 button and you can do advanced movement!” and did things like more XP for objectives, buffing, lower xp for kills (LMAO). IT FAILED MISERABLY. I will repeat it again…we need the gunplay and movement to be like RTCW otherwise none of that other crap matters.

(stealth6) #103

That wasn’t making it casual, that was making it work with few buttons (consoles)
Also I have no idea what you are saying, you point out K/D ratios were removed and the XP system changed so that ruined the game. Then you say gunplay and movement are all that matters… So let’s say they take the movement and gunplay from RTCW and change the XP system and remove K/D ratio… What then?

(V1cK_dB) #104

[QUOTE=stealth6;419446]That wasn’t making it casual, that was making it work with few buttons (consoles)
Also I have no idea what you are saying, you point out K/D ratios were removed and the XP system changed so that ruined the game. Then you say gunplay and movement are all that matters… So let’s say they take the movement and gunplay from RTCW and change the XP system and remove K/D ratio… What then?[/QUOTE]

I’ve already mentioned on this thread that the whole console button/analog stick argument is false. You can make a FPS that controls just fine on a console. I hope I don’t need to record myself playing RTCW tides of war for the original XBOX just to prove this point.

I’m not saying that lacking a k/d ratio and more XP killed the game. I’m saying they tried to do that and it wasn’t enough to get the supposed wider audience casuals to play. My point is that even casuals want good gunplay. That’s what matters. To answer your question if I had that gunplay and didn’t have k/d ratio or xp…I’d be in love with the game.

Also…just went back and looked at the trailer…I’m not very hopeful that this game will move anything like RTCW. The shooting is still up in the air but the movement is not even close. Moves closer to COD than W:ET. Which is a shame considering that’s the game they reference at the very beginning of the trailer as if to say hey…check out our new game…we made W:ET and if you liked that you will love this! I’m truly concerned that SD has no idea why their game was so popular (unique gunplay/movement).

That’s like id saying, “hey we’re making a new game and we made Quake!”. Then when you play it your guy moves slow ass hell, sprints, stops, ADS then shoots lol. Talk about false advertising. Even though RAGE wasn’t a great game the gunplay was total id software. It was the game’s strength. If they made a MP for that game it would have been awesome.

(Kendle) #105

My understanding (of RTCW) is as perfect as yours, I’m as oldskool as it gets as far as RTCW is concerned, started playing it on release in 2001, played thru 2002 and up till mid 2003 when ET was released. Was in, and formed, several clans, was a moderator on the old Jolt RTCW forums (basically THE European clan scene) and admin of the Jolt League, and in 2004 founded etnation.co.uk, a popular UK ET clan site.

Not saying any of that makes me right, just want you to appreciate I’m not some numpty who’s wandered into the wrong forum with no appreciation of what you or V1cK_dB are talking about. :slight_smile:

Who said anything about more randomness? I just want a few more guns, as long as those other guns also require skill to use. I think the problem here is you only have one definition of “skill” and therefore assume only one gun is required.

Indeed, and whilst I support the concept it can be taken too far, or at least not thought through properly.

Did you ever play the short-lived Wolfenstein 2009? It had an MP40 like RTCW / ET but also added an MP43, which was more an Assault Rifle than an SMG. At the time I was deeply into DOD and I played the Support class, who’s weapon (as Axis) is the STG44, a later version of the MP43. I loved the idea of playing my favourite game mode, objective, using my favourite gun from DOD (they were very, very similar in both games).

Guess what the “competitive” community did straight away before they’d even played a single clan war in Wolfenstein 2009? Limited the MP43 to 1 per team, for no other reason than Medics couldn’t use it.

Weapon restrictions are fine when it comes to limiting the most OP / random weapons (if there are any), but it’s a double-edged sword, people can and will use restrictions to improve their own situation (ban the guns I don’t use) as much as the game’s.

Actually I thought the player movement speed looked pretty good. It’s not RTCW / ET style strafe-jumping, that’s for sure, but it’s a lot faster than COD, and there’s definitely some bunny-hopping going on.

Considering they inherited ET’s basic qualities from RTCW (as opposed to developed them themselves), I can’t disagree with this. I’ve often said ET was RTCW only worse, ET:QW was ET only worse, and Brink was ET:QW only worse. They’ve certainly majored on “improving” / extending the objective / XP system, but lost the fluidity of earlier games along the way. I blame the idTech4 engine for a lot of that to be fair, but even so I don’t think they really know, in their hearts, how to make a serious competitive PC FPS.

My concern is, if they listen to you, they’ll still fail to make a serious competitive PC FPS (because they always do) and it’ll be so 2 dimensional (one gun to rule them all!) that even casuals won’t like it and it’ll tank just as badly as Brink did.

My advice to SD is try to make Brink again, only do it right this time, no SMART, no console based control system, faster movement speed, balance the guns, make decent attack biased maps, make sure there’s 1st person spec / demo recording from day one, and give us / server admins options to tweak a few things so we, the community, can make it a decent competitive PC FPS.

(warbie) #106

I hear that.

(Kendle) #107

Just to address that point as well …

I’m not talking about completely different (guns or skills) just some differences to cater for different play-styles / preferences (in your world only people like you would play this game, I want people like you to play it AND people not exactly like you). For example, suppose you have “gun A” that fires 30 rounds per second and does 20hp damage per round, and “gun B” that fires 15 rounds per second at 40hp per round. You have a distinction, but you also still have balance.

But to address the specific scenario you describe. Shotguns tend to have a large blast radius, and in that example I’d probably not be any happier than you, but assume for a moment the Shotgun is pin point accurate. The only way the corner camping mofo gets to shoot you in the face is if he has excellent aim, otherwise he misses and you mow him down with your SMG.

Even then you’re assuming the Shotgun is 1-shot-kill. If it isn’t (and let’s hope it isn’t), if his TTK (time to kill), i.e. damage per second, is the same as yours, there’s no imbalance to worry about.

Skill still wins but in this case he would need more precise aim and you would need better tracking ability.

I appreciate that in this scenario you might not get perfect and pure duels between 2 equally equipped protagonists, but then you rarely do. This is a team game, it can be chaotic, it can be 2 v 3, or 4 v 1, or the other guy spots you first, or not. What doesn’t happen is 2 guys go at it like 19th century gentlemen duellers while everyone else watches and waits, then another 2 have a duel and after 20 minutes you add up how many duels each side won.

(montheponies) #108

That’s far from true. You may think i have a narrow view on this, but as mentioned ad-nauseam, RTCW had a weapons speciliast who could use a variety of guns that facilitated differing playstyles. However this was balanced by the simple fact that this was all the Soldier could do - he contributed nothing else to the team other than disrupting (pf) or area denial (sniper, flamer, venom). Hence the mainstay of most pub and competitive teams were SMG armed players. This didnt make it one dimensional in either pub or competition.

Equally it needs to be borne in mind that RTCW wasnt so restricted that it only had objective mode - you had any number of mods and game modes to attract more than ‘players like me’. If anything killed brink more than the dodgy controls and limited player numbers it was SD’s narrow view that only Objective and it’s variant SW are worthy to play.

As an aside, I also played from 2001, but with no broadband didnt play anything other than pub until 2003. Still play it today, though no where near as much (24hr beach on an american limited lives server…it’s like methadone to a heroine addict :/).

(Kendle) #109

Don’t want you to feel like I’m stalking you but … :slight_smile:

That sounds like a contradiction in terms. There are other weapons, but you can’t choose any of them if you want to play a class that’s required to complete the objective? And that’s not one dimensional? A token PF or Sniper + 5 SMGs doesn’t sound much like variety to me.

Better yet, try selling that idea to today’s gamers …

[ul]
[li]Me: There’s a Rifle, a Shotgun and an SMG, and the idea is to go over there and blow up that building.
[/li]
[li]Noob: OK, gimme a Shotgun and I’ll go blow it up.
[/li]
[li]Me: Sorry, the blow stuff up guy only gets an SMG.
[/li]
[li]Noob: OK, I’ll be Medic and keep the blow stuff up guy alive, gimme the Shotty.
[/li]
[li]Me: Nope, the keep people alive guy only gets an SMG as well.
[/li]
[li]Noob: Damn, well, er, I’ll be the guy that keeps the others stocked up on ammo, gimme a Rifle?
[/li]
[li]Me: Nope, SMG only
[/li]
[li]Noob: wtf?
[/li]
[li]Me: You can go stand on the hill if you like and let everyone call you a noob for not helping the team …
[/li]
[li]Me: Noob?
[/li]
[li]Me: ?
[/li]
[li]Me: Oh well, he had funny eyes anyway
[/li][/ul]

I’d certainly like to see other game modes, particularly TDM, for the real casual noobs that none of us would particularly want to play with but hope that someday would like to move up to playing the game the “proper” way.

(Antharax) #110

…I have an unrelated question to Dirty Bomb about this thread. Do I get bonus points and priority access if I post the “YOU CAN’T HANDLE THE TRUTH” scene from A Few Good Men?

(potty200) #111

(Offtopic) Kendle, do you still have the database for etnation? (/Offtopic)

(Kendle) #112

Unfortunately not, why do you ask?

(potty200) #113

Was just talking to a few UK players about it yesterday. It’s the time of year for nations cup and I remember looking at many threads over the years but never really got involved with it. Would be awesome to read some of the topics from back in the day! You gaming still?

(montheponies) #114

aye I’m getting worried :slight_smile:

anyway, I don’t think there is a contradiction in terms - simply making a class define the kind of weapon you can use is fairly standard. It’s one of the things that let down brink, where every class could have any movement and/or weapon - there was no differentiation. In competition it might be one pf/sniper, but then you at least one lt and eng, leaving three meds.

It’s not as if I’m arguing this hypothetically, RTCW worked. by your own admission it was better than W:ET which added more weapons (including crap riflenades and mines) and ETQW which added more stuff again. Brink at least got us back to close quarter games - just a pity the movement and shooting wasnt great - which is kindof the point of this thread.

Anyway, I dont buy that ‘today gamers’ are somehow more sophisticated - that’s marketing jargon - I’m ‘today’s gamer’ as much as the next guy - here’s my list;

[ul]
[li]Me: There’s a four classes you can go, Medic (revive/heal-SMG), LT (ammo/arty/FFE-SMG), Engineer (dyno/err more nades-SMG), Soldier (plethora of weapons).[/li]
[li]Noob: OK, where’s my jet?[/li]
[li]Me: Sorry, there is no jet.[/li]
[li]Noob: OK, but i want choice. Where’s my tank.[/li]
[li]Me: No, there is no tank.[/li]
[li]Noob: Damn, how do you kill people then?[/li]
[li]Me: Using the SMG like a true professional [/li]
[li]Noob: wtf, no kill streaks - but i’m a modern gamer I demand this kindof **** anything else is just hippy retro nonsense- christ on a bike next you’ll tell me there’s no orbital platform to nuke the entire planet?[/li][/ul]

(Dysfunkshion) #115

[QUOTE=montheponies;419575]aye I’m getting worried :slight_smile:
Anyway, I dont buy that ‘today gamers’ are somehow more sophisticated - that’s marketing jargon - I’m ‘today’s gamer’ as much as the next guy
[/QUOTE]
Today’s gamers are not more sophisticated in anyway, regardless of it being marketing jargon or not. There’s just more “choice”. However, most of the times choice is an illusion. It’s either exactly the same with a different touch or it’s way stronger or weaker than the alternative. In most cases this results in a “best” build, best “strategy” and many non viable options.

That’s why I’d rather have a leveled playing field than playing my own way and losing because there’s an ideal build/strategy/loadout.

(Kendle) #116

Straw-man argument, my list is way more likely, boo :slight_smile:

I think there’s 2 points to raise here :-

  1. RTCW would not sell if released today, because it just does not have the depth of choice that modern shooters have, regardless of whether those choices are good / bad / mis-leading or just plain useless fluff. DB needs to gain player share in today’s market, even if it’s not strictly speaking “for sale”, it’s still got to make money somehow and “offering less” is not going to cut it.

  2. DB has at least 4 semi-auto weapons (what looks like a heavy machine gun, a small machine-pistol, and 2 SMGs / ARs), it has a Shotgun, it has a Sniper Rifle, it has Pistols. Entertaining as this thread has been it’s pointless arguing for something NOT to be the case when it already is. The debate should move on to how those guns are balanced, which I guess we can’t really do until we have something to get our hands on.

(MoonOnAStick) #117

[QUOTE=V1cK_dB;419448]I’ve already mentioned on this thread that the whole console button/analog stick argument is false. You can make a FPS that controls just fine on a console. I hope I don’t need to record myself playing RTCW tides of war for the original XBOX just to prove this point.[/QUOTE]RTCW on XBOX is 10 years old and there haven’t been a great number of FPS games with ‘PC-style’ movement this console generation. As Darkangel stated earlier in this thread, one of the main drivers for FPS with ‘realistic’ movement and cover mechanics is that the acrobatic arena-style movement of yesteryear isn’t possible/fun with the input resolution of an analogue stick.

SD put a huge amount of effort into the SMART system for Brink. Even though it didn’t work out I think that shows they recognise movement as one thing that differentiates their games. Dirty Bomb looks less cumbersome than BF3/COD/… so I’m hopeful.

At some point in the future hopefully there will be a new input method for consoles that allows better FPS control (head tracking+rear touch screen?) and then we can all enjoy our first-person experiences. /starts a verse of Kumbaya

(V1cK_dB) #118

//youtu.be/YkY8lafdEGE

[QUOTE=MoonOnAStick;419625]RTCW on XBOX is 10 years old and there haven’t been a great number of FPS games with ‘PC-style’ movement this console generation. As Darkangel stated earlier in this thread, one of the main drivers for FPS with ‘realistic’ movement and cover mechanics is that the acrobatic arena-style movement of yesteryear isn’t possible/fun with the input resolution of an analogue stick.

SD put a huge amount of effort into the SMART system for Brink. Even though it didn’t work out I think that shows they recognise movement as one thing that differentiates their games. Dirty Bomb looks less cumbersome than BF3/COD/… so I’m hopeful.

At some point in the future hopefully there will be a new input method for consoles that allows better FPS control (head tracking+rear touch screen?) and then we can all enjoy our first-person experiences. /starts a verse of Kumbaya[/QUOTE]

What does it matter if RTCW on XBOX was 10 or 20 years old? My point is it CAN be done. The REASON that they make games the way they are today is because of Halo/COD and developers THINK that’s what people want. It IS possible to make an FPS with an analog stick and move quickly, strafe jump, aim accurately, etc on a console. They choose not to do so because they think that’s what people want. Slow moving FPS games. None of them have the balls to try a fast paced arcade shooter anymore. Has nothing to do with controls…although m/kb is definitely better. That’s all I’m saying.

I didn’t want to go through the trouble of doing a movement demo and posting it so I found a vid that is decent at showing the gameplay on console (the players aren’t highly skilled but you get the point). If you pay attention to the 1st video look at the movement, strafing, etc. It CAN be done on a console with dual analog sticks.

(DarkangelUK) #119

[QUOTE=V1cK_dB;419640]
What does it matter if RTCW on XBOX was 10 or 20 years old? My point is it CAN be done. The REASON that they make games the way they are today is because of Halo/COD and developers THINK that’s what people want. It IS possible to make an FPS with an analog stick and move quickly, strafe jump, aim accurately, etc on a console. They choose not to do so because they think that’s what people want. Slow moving FPS games. None of them have the balls to try a fast paced arcade shooter anymore. Has nothing to do with controls…although m/kb is definitely better. That’s all I’m saying.

I didn’t want to go through the trouble of doing a movement demo and posting it so I found a vid that is decent at showing the gameplay on console (the players aren’t highly skilled but you get the point). If you pay attention to the 1st video look at the movement, strafing, etc. It CAN be done on a console with dual analog sticks.[/QUOTE]

I saw nothing in that video that showed anything beyond someone playing an fps with a controller. No, it can’t be done, the analogue stick is very restrictive and the average (read, majority) player doesn’t play with sensitivity to the max to try and get a replication of twitch movement. I saw no strafing jumping because it cant be done with analogue sticks, I saw no pinpoint player tracking on any players that weren’t on the same level as you… you didn’t go to the bother of getting a movement video for your argument on movement? And no, I didn’t get the point. THROWING caps into YOUR reply does NOTHING to help your argument except make me think your keyboard is broken. Btw go get Quake Arena Arcade for 360, record yourself playing, then go watch a few Q3 videos on youtube and compare… you’ll see a grand canyon sized difference… because it’s not possible with a controller.

(V1cK_dB) #120

Q3 arena doesn’t play the same as RTCW did for the original XBOX. I’ve played both. I played RTCW on the original XBOX for about 1500 hrs and I also played on the PC. I guess you’ll have to take my word for it. The PC played better for sure…but there is no excuse for the games that are being made today. They are too slow and it’s being artificially made that way by developers. RTCW was much faster on analog sticks years ago than any FPS game on console today. I’m not claiming that RTCW played as well as it did on PC. But I am saying that games can be faster and much better than they are made today and this whole excuse about the controller is just an excuse. They can be better and they have been better.