The Truth


(jazevec) #41

Guys, more guns are pointless if they are nearly the same (Brink, and its peers). Compare with any Quake game where you have up to ten guns but each is used differently (which can also mean: not at all). It’s not fun to choose between guns with small differences. Guns in RTCW and W:ET are substantially different from each other.

Not all change is progress. People in western civilization have this childish tendency to view history as progress. Did you know the Chinese were fully capable of reaching America 800 years before Columbus ? They had the technology ! They were routinely trading with east coast of Africa. They closed themselves to the world because the faction of beaurocrats won. Beaurocrats were envious, because traders/explorers were getting all the fame.

Games released later would be invariably better if people were able to perfectly learn from their mistakes and from the past. But they can’t. RTCW and W:ET were more primitive visually, but it’s game design that matters. Fast-paced FPS games are simply not made anymore, or made poorly. You can’t just play DooM, Quake or RTCW and make a better game. You have to understand what made it good, what was a bad idea and can be improved, etc. This requires a lot of perception and an analytical mind. We still use scores to rate games at sites like metacritic. If later games were better, we’d just use a release date.

Also, adding something to a game doesn’t always have a positive net effect ! Quad damage and BFG exist in Quake/DooM games, but they were widely banned in multiplayer games. They completely wrapped the game around them. In Quake 2, hyperblaster, shotgun, machinegun, even handgrenades and grenade launcher were practically unused. Power armor was absent in multiplayer maps. Adrenaline, +maxHP abilities were added to W:ET and they made other classes all but obsolete. It’s the number of viable options in a game that matters, not number of of items or theoretical options.


(Kendle) #42

Absolutely, but how many viable options are there in ET, or were there in RTCW?

Last time I watched some competitive ET there was the odd Engie with a Rifle (presumably because you can shoot 'nades from them), but it was mostly all SMGs. In RTCW it was 5 SMGs + a Panzer (who would sometimes use Sniper if the map required it, like Beach 1st stage).

I’ve played DOD competitively, where there are 4 viable options (1 of which, SMG, isn’t generally used in matches because it’s considered “unskilled”), and I’ve played UrT competitively, which has 3 viable options.

All I really want for DB is something viable in addition to the generic SMG, a useful AR perhaps, or a decent shotgun / rifle, like they tried to do in Brink albeit they failed (CARB-9 + Light body quickly became the only real choice).


(ZeD) #43

SplashDamage should look which direction they want to go right now. ET was their most successful title out there and small things that they made for RtCW. Now how I feel is that they should really consider ET rather than brink and QW. Ty v1Ck_db for making this post.


(Antharax) #44

Edit: Now I know about acutepuppy… But I’m still wondering about the reddit. It all looks so good but so was Brink, and that turned out to be a disappointment because of all the marketing and whatnot I had huge expectations for.(Speaking of brink I should have registered on the forums ages ago when I used to play it. Would have gotten an invite that way. -.-)

Edit 2: I need to read more slowly. It seems like wishful thinking. It’s still something to look at. Here’s the URL.
http://www.reddit.com/r/Dirtybomb/comments/15jpgi/dirtybomb_what_is_is_and_why_were_excited/


(Chux) #45

One of the features I liked about ET was the fast and unrestrictive movement and how that affected gunplay and other aspects like trickjumpsm docruns, etc… You were far more involved in battles and close up duels were personal cause you were trying your best to hit your opponent but strafe and doge like mad and be hard to hit at the same time. That’s a lot more then just point and click action and I believe it’s the reason a lot of people have that sense of accomplishment after fragging someone.

I never liked the military shooters and always found myself less involved in gunplay. Sprint, spot, irons, shoot, and a split second later its just “Got one” or “Oh I’ve died”. And the fact you can’t hit a thing without irons, the games forces you to stop, crouch, aim and then engage. I’m not trying to say that’s pure crap, it’s just not for me. For instance I love the ballistics in BF games and think that an awesome addition, but it’s just not something I’m looking for in a MP game.

EDIT:
Dunno what would be best for DB considering weapons and classes. After ET I turned to TF2 and still play it in competition. I like the fact every class has (more or less) their own unique weapons and the use od classlimits in comp formats, but I’m just not sure how that would fit in DB. I liked the option in ET when you could just go with 6 engis and hope for the best xD


(.-COM-.PAIN) #46

All I can say is that I’m so happy they finally dumped the idTech 4 engine. It was the worst engine going. I hope DB shoots just like W:ET (ie. where I point is where the bullet goes). The bullet spread in Brink was just unacceptable and not worth playing. I haven’t played any multiplayer games with an Unreal Engine. Hopefully, it will work ok.


(TheSgtBilko) #47

Things that made RtCW/W:ET great but are sadly missing in most AAA titles these days e.g. BRINK:

  • Linux/Win dedi servers
  • Open server config that admins can actually tweak for gameplay suited for their communitys liking.
  • Mod/Custom Map support

… and colored tags for names :smiley:


(V1cK_dB) #48

[QUOTE=TheSgtBilko;418505]Things that made RtCW/W:ET great but are sadly missing in most AAA titles these days e.g. BRINK:

  • Linux/Win dedi servers
  • Open server config that admins can actually tweak for gameplay suited for their communitys liking.
  • Mod/Custom Map support

… and colored tags for names :D[/QUOTE]

While that stuff is important, NONE of that matters without good shooting and movement mechanics built into the core engine. None of it.


(warbie) #49

Saying things have moved on grates a little as it suggests things have improved rather than being dumbed down, which they have been. I agree about player expectations having changed and this is much of the problem. People are used to the CoD model to the extent that they think this is what fps are and how they should play, and in turn developers feel they have to ape it. The advantage to everyone having the same gun (and movement speeds, similar hp etc) is that it levels the playing field. With nearly everyone on equal footing it becomes about aiming and movement skills, teamplay and tactics. Pretty much all the things I find interesting in a fps. I’m not saying there should be a one gun limit, but the difference between the tight gameplay in RTCW and ET and the complete cluster **** of nearly everything else we see these days is in no small part due to the limited arsenal, lack of items/perks/kill streaks/vehicles, and all the other things players now expect. The frustrating thing is, I suspect there are legions of people out there who would like a return to the faster, movement focussed, twitch aimy shooters many of us grew up with and just don’t know it. All they’ve experienced is CoD and BF.


(Kendle) #50

The disadvantage is that everyone who doesn’t favour that particular style simply doesn’t play the game, meaning it occupies a smaller niche and probably struggles for player numbers after a while.

Everyone keeps holding up COD as the only alternative to whatever agenda it is they’re promoting, but as I’ve now said several times, in just this one thread, COD is not the only other game ever made.

I’d like to hold up DOD (Day of Defeat) as a shining example of how you can cater for a diverse range of player preferences and still have a balanced game. DOD has an SMG, an AR, a Rifle and a Sniper and ALL of them are regularly used (on pubs in almost equal numbers), and no-one tries to force everyone else to use their gun of choice. In matches a typical 6-man team is 3 Rifles, 2 AR’s and a Sniper (SMGs are considered “unskilled”, they’re allowed but most teams choose not to use them).

Everyone having the same gun and “levelling the playing field” is fine if you’re talking about an entirely aim based / arena / death-match style game, but we’re not, we’re talking about classes and objectives and different players fulfilling different roles. Allowing them to use different guns actually makes a lot of sense in that context.

The problem is not having extra choices, it’s balancing them, something that unfortunately SD failed to do in either ET or Brink. Let’s hope they have more success in DB :slight_smile:

I don’t know how players could want to “return” to games they’ve never experienced but I get your point (I hope), and I agree.

The main thing that really, really annoyed me about Brink was that it was just too easy, it’s like SD total underestimated the capabilities of even half-way decent FPS players. I remember when I first set foot on an RTCW server, I got creamed, badly. Even after a few months I struggled. I want that feeling again, a game that’s un-compromising, and un-apologetically difficult to master, not something that Joe Newb who’s never played an FPS before can go 1:1 on his first day (which I really believe Brink was designed to do).

.
.
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Damn, I write too much, probably ought to go do some work now :slight_smile:


(Dysfunkshion) #51

[QUOTE=Kendle;418563]
The main thing that really, really annoyed me about Brink was that it was just too easy, it’s like SD total underestimated the capabilities of even half-way decent FPS players. I remember when I first set foot on an RTCW server, I got creamed, badly. Even after a few months I struggled. I want that feeling again, a game that’s un-compromising, and un-apologetically difficult to master, not something that Joe Newb who’s never played an FPS before can go 1:1 on his first day (which I really believe Brink was designed to do).[/QUOTE]
This annoys the hell out of me in almost all recent games. The first time I had a score with more kills than deaths on ET felt so amazing. Same goes for the first killing spree. One of the problems most games have is that you’re almost unable to go 1v2 and win even if you’re soo much better than both enemies combined. COD being a prime example. I feel like Counterstrike does a way better job and even though I suck at playing it, I enjoy watching high level matches.


(warbie) #52

Sure, but isn’t that always the case when trying something different? Better this than trying to or pander to both crowds and pleasing neither a la Brink. Valve hasn’t compromised CS in this way and rightly so. I’d rather SD man up and take some risks by doing their own thing. They could be the company that brings shooters back to the PC.

It’s just the obvious template to target. Most fps I play these days feel like CoD to varying degrees. And to be fair, DoD is an old game. I thought it was pretty good btw, but it didn’t have the movement or gunplay I like. DoD:S I couldn’t stand.

I’m torn on this. Guess it comes down to how it’s implemented. I personally think RTCW and ET were good because they were true to their arena roots. The class skills were enough to differentiate between and define roles and, most importantly, the fixed gunplay/movement kept gunplay solid. Adding a few new weapons is fine, but it can go too far and we end up pigeonholing how a class can play like in TF2 (which I do like and played competitively btw - but enjoyed for quite a different reasons).

Agreed!


(Kendle) #53

Looking at the classes on the DB page :-

https://secure.warchest.com/dirtybomb/static/header/fg.png

It looks like the Engie (female) is carrying a shotgun, the Sniper a scoped rifle (obviously) and there are 2 other (different) guns on display so I suspect this particular discussion is moot anyway.

All I’m really asking for is what’s in that picture but on the proviso that ALL those guns are useful / balanced, rather than one of them being so OP everyone uses it.


(montheponies) #54

I only ever played a small amount of DoD and it was literally years ago so feel free to shoot me down, but it really didnt strike me as a mass appeals game - certainly not on a par with RTCW (in its heyday) or W:ET. I never, ever, recall playing RTCW as either, eng, medic or LT and thinking “I wish i could fit an underslung m320, or an IRNV” or “god what i wouldnt give for a bolt action rifle to go with my arcade shooter”.

At most I might consider (when playing shrub) picking up a thomson for indoor work, rather than the favoured mp40. The point being the stock weapons for the classes were more than fine for the vast majority - it didnt make the game niche in the slightest, basically the guns matched the [arcade] game perfectly. If you wanted something different you could always go soldier and suffer the inherent penalty which came with the wider range of weapons.

Bottom line the vast majority of firefights came down to who was the better player and by that I mean had the better movement and aim for ‘THAT GAME’. Personally I’m not interested in having this lost in the bid to have ‘something for everyone’. If someone cant aim and needs the crutch of a shotgun or rpg or p90 then let them play BF2, BFBC2, BF3, CSS/CSGO, Brink, COD4, COD5, COD6, COD7…


(Kendle) #55

DOD was never as big as RTCW / ET in their heyday, but it’s been fairly consistent with a reasonable player base still, even after more than 10 years, I was merely holding it up an example of “something other than COD”, and in particular something in which a variety of weapons are available AND it works.

I’m just looking for something more than “one gun fits all”. As always these kind of discussions assume we’re at the extreme opposites of each others position, we’re not. Wherever you are, and wherever you perceive COD as being, I’m maybe somewhere in the middle, in fact probably leaning more towards your end than the other, I’d just prefer something that isn’t a copy / paste like for like remake of a game I could be playing still if I wanted, but don’t.


(Kendle) #56

Oh and btw


Urban Terror, old (2001) Quake3 mod, still also played today, very active comp scene.


(warbie) #57

Nice :slight_smile: Urban Terror’s good fun. Feels like RTCW ever so slightly CSised.

Why must we be forced to play old games for this type of gameplay? The fact that people are still playing a variety of these old games shows there’s a market for them. Perhaps tiny compared more mainstream shooters, but a keen market nonetheless.


(Mustang) #58

In a previous thread Anti posted that he was trying to keep the the motion in the video minimal and smooth because it looked better for promotional purposes, or doesn’t effect give people motion sickness or something (can’t recall the exact wording) and that in some future footage we would see a bit more what it’s really like to play.

So I’m looking forward to seeing that and if it’s anything near what it seems most of us are hoping for.


(montheponies) #59

[QUOTE=Kendle;418672]Oh and btw
Urban Terror, old (2001) Quake3 mod, still also played today, very active comp scene.[/QUOTE]

yep, which i’m not a particular fan of.,

RTCW also had the sniper rifle - just restricted to the soldier (hence my point about classes), so more often than not a firefight was/is between like armed (ie. SMG) players. In turn this meant that most fights were fair with the outcome based upon the skill of the player rather than the rock/paper/scissor or topptrumps of who’s chosen the right weapon for that particular engagement.


(V1cK_dB) #60

I 100% agree. Just because things have changed doesn’t mean that it’s for the better. 10 years from now every game will be a facebook game if we just keep on accepting games getting easier. COD, BF and all of the rest of those games all play similar and are easier than RTCW was.

I’ve said the exact same thing in the Brink forums that you said around people not even knowing how fun a game like RTCW would be today. They don’t know what they don’t know. Some people call it oldschool and why go back. I say because it’s technically new for the masses and a different experience for most of them. Once all of these COD (I reference that game because it has the most players…the DOD type games are cute but nobody plays that so it doesn’t influence devs) newbs grow tired of the same, slow repetitive gameplay they look for something different. Something more challenging. RTCW type gameplay would fit that bill perfectly.

Any time I hear “realistic” or “military” FPS I think of dumbed down and slow gameplay. Clunky, slow movement combined with sprint, stop, ADS then shoot gameplay. TERRIBLE.