The Truth

(jazevec) #21

As for medics, maybe the class should just be played by people who like to help others ?

(Antharax) #22

Classes are fine in my opinion as long as they all have their uses, no one can over sustain themselves or their powerful weapons with health kits or Ammo kits and that their uses have sort of synergy with each other(Example giving a class a sniper and making the class’s uses "Airstrikes, spotting…etc).

(Kendle) #23

I guess part of my beef is the fact it’s called “Medic”, a name that envokes a support role rather than leading the line, but I guess I should have added " over-powered" to that sentence, as that’s the main problem, ET’s Medics are over-powered, you don’t see whole teams full of Assault’s in BF3, and you didn’t see whole teams of Medics in RTCW, it’s only in ET that the Medic’s abilities tip it over the top.

RTCW and ET’s damage model is the same, it’s the rate of fire that’s different.

(BomBaKlaK) #24

humm … did we play the same game ? did u play BF3 in match ? cause that’s full medic match !

(Stumperd) #25

[QUOTE=Kendle;418175]100% agree with this, coming from RTCW -> ET -> more evolved games.

See for me the opposite applies, I don’t feel like I’ve earned anything, I’ve just put a red dot on a bad guy and pressed mouse1, woopey doo!

I haven’t had to worry about position / trajectory / movement, I can press mouse1 anytime without cost, I haven’t had to compensate for recoil, I haven’t had to think about exposing myself cos 3 headshots / 5 bodyshots means I can survive being hit long enough to jump back into cover and Med myself back to full health, I haven’t had to time my runs cos I can shoot while sprinting / running / walking, I haven’t had to worry about anything really other than point and click.

I find that very 2 dimensional and is probably the main reason I stopped playing that sort of game 7 years ago and moved on. I sincerely hope DB has more to it than that. Yes, if you’re a diehard ET fan you might have to learn some new skills, but so what, that’s all part of the fun, isn’t it?[/QUOTE]

I completely disagree with you. I can see you have never played W:ET on a competitive high skill level. You say in games like ET you only have to press mouse1 and aim a dot on your enemy to get a kill and you don’t have to worry about position, trajectory or movement. But this is exactly the opposite. If you compare any CoD game to ET, in CoD you only have to aim somewhere in the middle of the enemy’s body because the bullets spread so you will hit almost all bullets and you will even get headshots while not even aiming directly on the enemy’s head. In CoD you can’t shoot while sprinting, jumping etc. so when it comes to fighting it is just about who starts shooting first because both will probably hit all bullets because both players barrely have any movement and will most of the time hit almost all bullets. But in ET, because of the ability to crouch, run, jump etc. people can dodge the bullets of the enemy making them harder to hit so they have a better chance at killing them, and in ET because the bullets don’t spread to everywhere you have to aim really precise on either their head to kill the fastest or their body to have a higher chance of hitting. Which makes ET alot more skill-based because if you can aim really precise at someone’s head or if you have really good movement you will be the better player.

So I don’t really understand how you can think recoilless hitscan weapons is 2 dimensional while it requires alot more skill.

Sorry for my bad english, I hope you get my point.

(BomBaKlaK) #26

Skill for a lot of people is to poop behind a crate ! kind of 1 dimension gameplay …

(Stumperd) #27

Then go play cod and not SD’s games

(BomBaKlaK) #28

It’s a general way to talk about people who like game with recoil and ironsight …

I just say something on your side but you look like to lazy to undertand it …
Just think a bit before posting some bull**** like “go play cod !”

angry ? then go play angry birds instead SD’s games !

(Kendle) #29

ET’s 2 dimensional game-play would indeed be compromised by adding spread, as would any game, but I never advocated that, nor ever would. I hate spread. IMO guns should all be 100% accurate and only differentiated by rate of fire / damage / recoil etc., leave spread out of it.

There are games other than ET and COD you know, it’s not like there are only 2 alternatives. There are “high damage” games and “low damage” games AND lots of shades of gray in-between. However, IMHO, ET represents the extreme end of the low damage model. I’d advocate something a little above that, that’s all.

(Kendle) #30

Yes I did, and yes it is, I agree (4-v-4 Rush anyway, 6-v-6 Conquest wasn’t so much), but I was talking about public servers. I don’t recall RTCW being 12 Medics -v- 12 Medics (on pubs), but I certainly do ET.

In matches teams are inherently balanced due to the very nature of structured competition, but on public servers if 1 class is demonstrably more powerful than any other that’s the one everyone will gravitate to. I’d just like to see that avoided if at all possible by not making DB’s Medic as OP as ET’s.

(Stumperd) #31

I misunderstood your point then sorry

(V1cK_dB) #32

[QUOTE=Kendle;418175]100% agree with this, coming from RTCW -> ET -> more evolved games.

See for me the opposite applies, I don’t feel like I’ve earned anything, I’ve just put a red dot on a bad guy and pressed mouse1, woopey doo!

I haven’t had to worry about position / trajectory / movement, I can press mouse1 anytime without cost, I haven’t had to compensate for recoil, I haven’t had to think about exposing myself cos 3 headshots / 5 bodyshots means I can survive being hit long enough to jump back into cover and Med myself back to full health, I haven’t had to time my runs cos I can shoot while sprinting / running / walking, I haven’t had to worry about anything really other than point and click.

I find that very 2 dimensional and is probably the main reason I stopped playing that sort of game 7 years ago and moved on. I sincerely hope DB has more to it than that. Yes, if you’re a diehard ET fan you might have to learn some new skills, but so what, that’s all part of the fun, isn’t it?[/QUOTE]

I think everyone has done a good job countering these points but I’ll add something. You say learn some new skills as if we haven’t had to do that for so many years being forced to play slow, clunky, OHK, “realistic” shooters like COD, BF, etc. EVERY freaking game looks the same! Sprinting while the freaking gun sways side to side then coming to a complete stop before you can shoot and then of course ADS and limited movement. Every single game. But I’m the one that refuses to adapt? Laughable.

Btw I Have played every major shooter AND I’m very good at them. I avg somewhere over 2.0 kd ratio in any game I play so its not that I cant adapt. I just don’t have as much fun playing anymore. Went 45-3 in COD last night and it didn’t even feel like I accomplished anything. That happens all the time. I felt more satisfied going 1 v 2 in RTCW and seeing helmets fly in an intense battle that was back and forth. And it’s not even close.

(V1cK_dB) #33

[QUOTE=acutepuppy;418122]What broke Brink was being unfinished, with bad marketing, and too strong a focus on character and weapon customization, and not simple things like a friendly UI, a functional HUD, smooth gameplay, quality netcode, and they seemed to have tried to develop one game for PS3, 360, and PC. It was simply unfinished and never recovered.

Not to mention the movement scheme was all weirded out with the leaping, sliding, etc… Quake Wars handled very well, but in my opinion was hurt by long, slow, and ultimately useless quality assurance from Activision, along with core issues in the idTech 4 engine.[/QUOTE]

Bad marketing? I disagree. They actually did well marketing the game and it sold decently. The problem was when people actually played it they didn’t like it. Wasn’t different enough. If you are going to make a game that plays like COD…it should be better than COD otherwise don’t make one like COD. If you are going in a different direction…don’t half ass it. Go all the way. Don’t “Brink” it. Don’t handhold people and call it SMART. Don’t say it’s going to be a fast paced shooter and slow it down from compared to your previous games. Don’t limit skill ceilings artificially.

The problem is more what jazevec says in his post. I agree…I don’t think SD even knew that the gunplay and movement combined with the class based objective gameplay is what made their games so popular. They were arrogant enough to think that it was just the gametypes and classes. They were wrong. The worst part is that like jazevec said since Id Software made the gunplay/movement SD might not even know how to make their game play like RTCW. That is scary.

I hope they learned their lesson and now add in the gunplay and movement. If not…this will be Brink all over again. Guaranteed.

(V1cK_dB) #34

[QUOTE=warbie;418170]I play NS2. I played mmos (that was a dark time!). Love co-op and play pretty much everything going that lets you play with friends. These aren’t the same elements - it’s a bit much of a stretch to compare an mmo to the teamplay in RTCW - but there are similarities, albeit basic in comparison. Nothing that gets close to, say, being a medic as you’re pushing through a bottleneck and the speed in which you have to make the right call and react, all while having to move well and fight fast moving targets. As V1cK_dB pointed out, it’s the movement and gunplay coupled with the gameplay elements that classes and objectives add that makes these games great.

Here’s one example, escaping with the docs. Something that in many games would be basic turned into something beautiful :slight_smile:

//youtu.be/VFqM9UGkuwE

And some hitscan recoiless shooting …

//youtu.be/eDKI_I_Lc4k
[/QUOTE]

I just wanted to compliment you on this awesome post. Very well said. Just look at these videos. You had objectives similar to this in Brink but it didn’t work because of the gunplay/movement being restricted, slower and less accurate. Well done warbie!

(Fooooo) #35

It would probably take a bit of a re-write to get close to the feel of RTCW/ET’s movement using the Unreal engine.

It would be easy enough to have a look at the sourcecode (as RTCW/ET’s is open afaik) and “copy” the system for movement / gravity etc etc from it.

The problem then is you have to put it into the unreal engine for use by DB, which would be a lot harder to get working right I would imagine.

Even then, with everything set the same, some quirks in the engine somewhere else may make it still not feel right or not work at all… its definitely possible but would take some work I’d say…

I also somewhat agree with the OP. The movement and gunplay of the RTCW/ET games was the best. QW was still good, but not as fun as the 2 before it, and Brink was much further away than QW was in terms of gunplay / movement.

Each one after ET seems to slowly move further and further away from that base.

(acutepuppy) #36

You’re right. I bought the game on pre-order. What I mean by that was actually that they street-dated the game, and then didn’t allow early reviews. I knew right then we could have a big stinker on our hands. It was the failure to live up to the marketing by not including enough raw gameplay footage, or access to critique.

(Kendle) #37

It wasn’t a personal slight at you, but in my experience many people want to hold on to what they’re used to just because they’re used to it, and you also need to appreciate that despite the arrogance of the title of this thread it is just your opinion, and other people have, well, other opinions.

I agree, but like I said there isn’t just “ET” and “COD”, there are other games, and they’re not all generic COD clones. I feel a bit sorry for COD actually, it’s the de-facto “game we hate” on many forums, not just this one.

Anyway, the game I left ET for, DOD (which is “Day of Defeat”, not COD spelt wrong), is the most satisfying game I’ve played, for the same reason you quote, it’s by far the hardest game I’ve played (much harder than ET), and it’s as different from ET as COD is.

To some extent I agree with this. I’ve said it before on these very forums somewhere, with ET SD took RTCW and made it worse, then they took ET and made it even worse and called it ET:QW. Then, once again, they took ET:QW and made it even worse still and called it Brink. Every game they’ve made has moved away from the core RTCW gameplay (which of course they didn’t invent, they only inherited).

I’d like to get back to RTCW, not ET which many people not old enough to remember mistakenly believe is RTCW with different maps.

But my concern is even going right back to the RTCW core would be short-sighted, the world has moved on. Players expect to be able to choose between a range of weapons these days, not just the same point and shoot SMG for everyone. It can be done, I’ve seen it done, and IMHO doing so wouldn’t lower the skill ceiling or take the “magic” out of the game.

(DarkangelUK) #38

Who’s your friend, did he buy one of the packs? I’m pondering which pack to purchase once the finances are back in order after the holidays.

[QUOTE=Kendle;418353]
But my concern is even going right back to the RTCW core would be short-sighted, the world has moved on. Players expect to be able to choose between a range of weapons these days, not just the same point and shoot SMG for everyone. It can be done, I’ve seen it done, and IMHO doing so wouldn’t lower the skill ceiling or take the “magic” out of the game.[/QUOTE]

I agree with most of what you’ve said, but my gripe is with the way in which the world has moved on… because the direction they’ve moved in is not for better. I agree, games these days offer more guns, more choice, more loadouts, perks, abilities, costumes… yet games aren’t lasting more than a year then we have the next iteration… with more of the same guns, same loadouts, same perks, same abilities. Games that don’t have a new release every year are also suffering the same fate, being abandoned after 6 months. We’re being filled by ADD gamers that, given a mass of choices, still jump ship to the next bandwagon game… so what’s making them leave? Personally I think devs are spending too much time creating these choices and they’re forgetting that there’s meant to be an appealing game with longevity underneath it. All these shiny options are just a distraction to try and make the gamer not realise that, underneath it all, there really isn’t much there. So yeah sure, the world has moved on, doesn’t make it a good thing, and doesn’t make it the reason that every dev should follow suit in an orderly fashion when the older games have proven longevity with lesser options more so than games with more.

(acutepuppy) #39

I always thought that medic balance was best achieved by giving them limited ammo/grenades, and a lower health pool than a soldier class?

I guess I’ll chip in about my main issue with recoilless hitscan: framerate, resolution, mouse DPI, etc… can become too much of a factor for me to be comfortable with. I think that the skill ceiling should be very high, but there should absolutely be a point where movement and team-tactics become as important as aiming skill. Clearing a room, or going solo on a doc run should standard top-player stuff, but shutting down an entire team with pinpoint headshots is another thing… especially because this aiming style will be well-practiced by a small, but very vocal, and proud, part of the playerbase.

(montheponies) #40

i think that’s correct and why RTCW had a simple and well balanced model. medic starts with one clip, with no pickup of dropped weapons (unless you played pub-friendly shrub), no adrenaline shots, no duel pistols and limited to the standard SMG only.

The point i think the OP is making is that the game should have good movement and shooting - the mechanics of these being such that you can, through practice become proficient in both. My aim was never anything other than ok’ish, but I improved with practice learning that it tied into movement, circle strafing (esp against multiple enemies so they would have to shoot through a teammate etc) and anticipation (ie. shooting a fraction of a second early as you round a corner). my movement was also not so good, and though I improved it, I was never able to consistently pull off the kind of trickjumps that were useful (eg. ice wall jump) which is cool as i’d hate to think a mediocre player like me was the pinnacle of skill in any game :slight_smile:

For every ‘frag’ headshot fest on youtube you’ll have an almost equal number of trickjumping montages.

I should probably put in my signature that all my comments refer to RTCW…