The Thunder Thread, and SD should make Thunder himself strong, not his nade.

(Tanker_Ray) #41

@JJMAJR

So you mean he should be sneaky, chance-seeking opportunist again like the beginning when he was released?? I’ll tell ya why this isn’t fine at all.

and yet again I have to repeat the whole thing again, this ‘learn how to play him’ or ‘git gud’… Just look over my stats again, and think about how I did well with this guy. Of COURSE I was adapted to this sneaky rat style playing, because it was the only way to get good result with Thunder. The part about ‘there is no fixed style’ is right yes, but the thing is, Thunder didn’t have any options for that. What this mean is you are right when Thunder can both handle damage tank, and concussionade-depending style, but Thunder’s only style was the second one, just waiting for his damn short strong CC concussionade.

Why? because Thunder’s body is so damn huge and he’s got only 10 additional HP than Fragger so that is what makes him coward. Because he was so damn fragile without his nade. Just imagine Rhino with 160 HP, since their hit box is very similar. You have absolutely no option to play as tank with Thunder. I bet even Rhino with 160HP is better than Thunder, because at least he can melt down enemies with 300DPS before he himself gets melt down.

Also gotta mention about the December 1st hotfix. Reason why all of those Thunder users were mad was because, this hotfix removed the last light of Thunder, the conucssionade-depending style. This last strategy is no longer able after that~til now. There is nothing left for Thunder right now. We are all able to stomp low skilled players with him, but this shows none about how good or bad Thunder is. What I wanted to describe was, even SD roll-back his nade, if his basic HP doesn’t change, nothing is going to change compared to November 24th, the date when he was actually released.

So, why do I expect damage tank play style with him? This is so damn natural that I feel like ‘Do I even have to explain this to you???’. It is like no one expecting Aura to be an Assault, or Vassili to stand in frontline. No one fxxking does. Can you understand playstyles like Rhino-sniping or Vassili rushing in enemy’s base??

You can play Thunder with compeletely opposite playstyle, whatsoever you please, and yes, that is your free will. You don’t have to play like it was supposed to and, yeah thats right! but since SD describes Thunder as ‘Forceful frontline point man with lots of health and lots of firepower’, I will consider him as damage tank before that explanation changes at the Meet the Mercs Secssion. It wasn’t even written like ‘may be he is heavy infantry’ like you wrote. Meet the Merc secssion proves that he IS supposed to be a damage tank, and what’s ironic is he isn’t even able to act like ‘Forceful frontline pointman’ in-game. This was also reason why I disagreed about reducing his size or his movement speed buff at first comment.

Official homepage describes Thunder is a merc with Lots of HP and Lots of firepower!!! and 160 low HP and MK.46 is the fact that they force all of us to accept. What a funny joke this is. Fragger with K-121 fits much well with this statement though.

Furthermore, you can’t even compare Red Eye with this broken guy. I just have one question for you.


Did Red Eye had any contradiction with his SD’s supposed-to-design and in-game playstyle??

Red Eye’s playstyle was very successfully aimed. He is suppose to sneak inside his smoke or provide cover to team mates JUST LIKE IN-GAME. Reason why Red Eye had such a hard time before the buff was because of Grandeur’s bad iron sight and weak smoke HP, not his style difference problem like Thunder. ‘IF’ Red Eye could only use Shotguns, oh I would call that a same problem with Thunder. OR may be if Red Eye was described as an assault, classified as Assault, but in reality he just can’t play like that, so he had to sneak and seeking chances like Thunder.

Dreiss’s DPS is 130. I don’t see why 130>132 this kind of calculation pops up in your head.

(Drcipres) #42

[quote=“ThunderPro;121537”]

Funnily enough, if you look at Thunder and Fragger you can see them holding each other’s LMGs, as they were back in alpha, also the removal of the mouse sensitivity effect makes no sense.

What I just wanted to explain was, even Thunder gets that previous MK.46 with 145 DPS and low bullet spread, NOTHING is going to change.[/quote]

If they can’t make the conc nade at the same level as the frag nade,( because is impossible that something that helps kill is better than something that kills) make his main gun powerfull atleast

(JJMAJR) #43

I didn’t say the second style was tanking out damage. I believe that the Thunder’s main purpose is countering combos that would normally make players indestructible, such as Aura and Rhino. When under the influence of a flashbang, your health pool is meaningless. That’s an effect that is unique to the Thunder. Not even Vasilli or Redeye can do that, and they’re snipers.

Thunder could use a change to his HP and hitbox. His hitbox is enormous. He could use an additional ability that makes killing him harder, or makes killing enemies easier.

I would like to think of Thunder as a frontline class that requires players to play intelligently in order to pull off, while being able to deal with situations that are nearly impossible to deal with normally. A second ability that would allow him to still be useful for his team when his concussion grenade isn’t available is what the class needs.

SD screwed up with Thunder. He’s bad because that he is reliant on one ability to take out enemies, because that the ability isn’t going to be always available. Thunder needs more specialized tools in his belt than what he’s carrying right now.

[quote=“ThunderPro;123153”]You can play Thunder with compeletely opposite playstyle, whatsoever you please, and yes, that is your free will. You don’t have to play like it was supposed to and, yeah thats right! but since SD describes Thunder as ‘Forceful frontline point man with lots of health and lots of firepower’, I will consider him as damage tank before that explanation changes at the Meet the Mercs Secssion.

It wasn’t even written like ‘may be he is heavy infantry’ like you wrote. Meet the Merc secssion proves that he IS supposed to be a damage tank, and what’s ironic is he isn’t even able to act like ‘Forceful frontline pointman’ in-game. This was also reason why I disagreed about reducing his size or his movement speed buff at first comment.[/quote]
That answers this question:

[quote=“JJMAJR;122968”]“but that doesn’t fit his own style.”
Who says it doesn’t? What does he say, or how does he play, in order to validate this kind of idea?[/quote]

I however believe that Thunder is too important to be made into a guy where he counters a lot of crap, but can only be countered by himself. If he becomes a high damage tank, then the only thing that would get rid of him would be another version of himself.

I suggested making Thunder a class with battle rifles in order to rebalance him. This is so that the class can engage at ranges that are normally out of reach for assaults.

I blame the wiki’s unreliable information. It said that the Dreiss has more DPS than the other weapons.

(Tanker_Ray) #44

@JJMAJR

Yes, I’m reading all of it and answering your questions.

I was saying you are able to choose your style only when all those various styles are available. There is no ‘fixed’ play style, but there is always ‘most-effective play’ with all different mercs. If Thunder was able to tank damage like I wanted and SD designed, then you are right. Who cares if you play safe as Rhino? Thunder had only real one option, nade-depending safe playing which was the most effective way to play him, and it’s gone after the hotfix. This means, you are definitely not free to play him with various styles. I mean, right now he literally has NONE of strategies. Nothing, but just shooting well with his gun like all the others can do remains.

Health Pool is definitely not meaningless even at that kind of situation. Actually, it isn’t only Thunder’s job to break through defense lines. Entire Assault is for that, and funny thing is Stoker’s molotov and Fletcher’s sticky bombs are WAY better than just disabling things when you counter AuRhino combo, because you gotta kill them by your OWN FIREPOWER, and that is why Thunder is depending so much on his primary weapon(Yeah, and his MK.46 lacks so much of it.). Reason why you need explosives is, it gives you high-instant damaging abilities, and damaging enemies without looking at them(All guns are straight-shooting weapons, unless DB had corner shots). Only moment when your HP is meaningless was when you concuss all enemies before the hotfix, and you just shoot those crippled enemies. However, I used Thunder for 60 hours, and there was so many situations that non-concussed enemies shoot you back while you try shooting concussed ones. This is so important. Your HP and MK.46(At least you won’t going to have firepower problems with Timik and Stark, but this just means another sad fact that Thunder has same firepower with the others using them.) is definitely not enough to sustain enemy’s counterattack. Such a bad synergy.

Also, HP is so important in DB because every gun has fixed rate of head,body,and limb damage, and since DB has no such things like ‘Armor’, or other damage reducement concept, MAX HP is your only way to tank. Well, you can evade bullets with small hitbox and high movement speed, but that isn’t simply ‘tanking’. Reason why Sawbonez with 110HP is much more stable than Phoenix with 100HP is just because of that 10HP, even Phoenix has the best self-healing ability in DB. Well, ‘Then Thunder is much tankier than Fragger right? you said 10hp is such a big deal’ logic is possible, but unlike 110HP saves Sawbonez from direct sticky, only advantage you get with Thunder than Fragger is when you shot by MOA or FEL-IX in to head. 110 and 100 difference is so huge because 100HP means you get same HP with Vassili, but 160 with much bigger hitbox and 150 difference? nah.

Giving him another additional second ability? I think if that’s the thing you want, SD should separate the concussionade in to two, Concussion and Flashbang, so you can choose either one to throw. This is very good idea, but still don’t agree about his skill-reliance. Fragger & Nader depends on their explosives, so I think the other two Rhino and Thunder have to rather depend on their own firepower like minigun(Yeah Rhino already does.), and MK.46.

High HP huge hitbox with high firepower style’s counter isn’t only the same type. Like Rhino’s only counter isn’t Rhino. Well Rhino is much much slower than Thunder, but he’s got that highest firepower and HP, and you know how many countering facts he have, right?
You are much more fragile to splash damage, and very weak against normal headshots(especially sniper rifle), shotguns, especially the Remburg-7 shotgun(Same as Rhino, and also applies to Fragger too.). Thunder is already one huge juicy target, so there is no problem if Thunder’s firepower is buffed to high level, because as he shoots others harder, he is going to be shot harder too just like Rhino. I’ve killed so many Thunders easily with my Bushwhacker using Kek-10 while full HP 1 vs 1 fight, even Thunder’s got 50 more HP.

Thunder already have two battlerifles, so the problem of his weaponry stays with MK.46. Machinegun is meant to be good at range, so I’m fine with 26m range that MK.46 has. But all the other options like 11 damage just makes it unworthy. Consequently, at least the recoil or bullet spread should be better than Kek, but it isn’t. Kek isn’t good at places like Chapel’s third phase(battlefield that has the most far distance engagement), but the problem is MK.46 is worse than Kek when shooting far because of damn spread…

which wiki did you visit? Official wiki was quite accurate for me. If Thunder had access to Dreiss, oh I would’ve used it. Landing headshots with it is so powerful… 52 sudden damage. 26 damage is so much powerful than this huge Kek-10 with high bullet spread.

(Tanker_Ray) #45

[quote=“Drcipres;123401”][quote=“ThunderPro;121537”]

Funnily enough, if you look at Thunder and Fragger you can see them holding each other’s LMGs, as they were back in alpha, also the removal of the mouse sensitivity effect makes no sense.

What I just wanted to explain was, even Thunder gets that previous MK.46 with 145 DPS and low bullet spread, NOTHING is going to change.[/quote]

If they can’t make the conc nade at the same level as the frag nade,( because is impossible that something that helps kill is better than something that kills) make his main gun powerfull atleast
[/quote]

Well I don’t even expect Thunder’s conc nade that good. Honestly it was OP before the hotfix, with that damn short 17sec CD. Thunder should at least placed near Rhino, like second highest HP, second slower(Already is, but not enough.) with Huge firepower machinegun, but not as nearly strong as minigun.

Fragger&Nader have AoE damage skills, so they just use normal rifles or SMG like the others, except K-121 right? Thunder’s Stark and Timik’s loadout augments are already so awesome, so MK.46 should be buffed for his own firepower. STRONG HUGE machinegun making everyone fear like Rhino’s minigun does… when will that time come? I long for that so much.

(SirSwag) #46

The problem is that he has a huge hit box comparable to Rhino with awful movement speed. But he doesn’t have half the killing potential of Rhino.

(Tanker_Ray) #47

100% fact confirmed.

I am so depressed NOTHING changed after December 16th patch…

Still can’t cook this damn nade, blinded enemies shooting back, or jumping so hard to evade your bullets, and concussing doing ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.

It’s funny 1.2 sec fuse time doesn’t allow you to throw far distance. Explodes in the air-

Anyway, MK.46 and his HP is still in bad state… what’s funny is Fragger’s nade is still strongk even its damage got nerfed to 170.

Conc nade’s only advantage is making enemies extremely annoyed every 17sec, and disabling things.

Still can’t understand why SD buffed Nader’s nade explosion radius last time.

Recent patches were great, except the damn Thunder and Timik.

Edit: But I think his 375 movement speed isn’t that much problem if his HP gets higher. Still fits his heavy infantry style, and only thing that makes you feel his movement speed isn’t compensating is because Thunder gets nothing but SMG firepower and 160HP. No one complains with Rhino since they’ve got 200HP and highest 300 DPS in the game, right? Well if SD isn’t going to change any of those… then plan B might be his movement speed…

(bizarreRectangle) #48

Learn to aim. His gun would be so overpowered if you buffed it. Concussion grenade is in a good spot. Since you don’t cook it yet you have a rather fast fuse time, you can throw it much faster than fragger.

With frag grenade you’re not afraid to throw it into a room from far away. But concussion grenade does zero damage. That is why you don’t throw it from far away. You have to be close so you can fill their concussed faces with bullets. That’s why the no cooking change is pretty good.

On the receiving side I almost never have time to look away and negate concussion grenade effects. 1.2 seconds isn’t a lot, also consider the flight time. You can also further “waste” the fuse time by bouncing it on walls and ceilings. SD even thought about this and increased bounciness of grenade.

After the dick update my stun targets have gotten so much easier to kill. More movement stun, lasts longer. Blind lasts longer too and I like I said it’s very hard to avoid the blind. I get loads of quads and triples if I throw my concussion nades right. I can’t see why you would want to complain.