The Sniping Gameplay : Update Suggestion for better game balance and diversity .

(Hendrov) #1

Hello everyone , I am an experienced turn-based player who has many years of XCOM / Team Fortress 2 / EVE Online hours under my belt.

I have to post this to raise awareness on the direction RAD Soldiers is heading at the moment. I love this game very much and I really hate to see it become less than the potential it has.

I have noticed a big shift in the gameplay doctrine : Snipers. Many players , myself included , are gearing up with full sniper teams (with the occasional Gus Marx). Why ? this is because sniper-heavy teams has enough turns to actually hold out and flush all other teams out to win the game by means of elimination . I have been very successful with that.

With 100k spare coins in my wallet , it’s getting boring.

I was happy initially , but as I switch with other soldier combinations , I have come to the conclusion that medium range soldiers such as “Specialist SUDs” and “Spud Grunts” are pretty much worthless - they couldnt move far enough and simply doesnt have the HP to “tank” incoming damage to make up for their lack of reach / limited movement range. This automatically points to one fatal flaw - Snipers should not have the same amount of “tanking capabilities” as a soldier who has to dive in regardless . It is a valid combat philosophy.

I am tired of playing a sniper team and I am here to expose why we are so popular and powerful . I want more diversity , and in order to have diversity , may I suggest several important elements that could enable RAD Soldiers addicts like myself to expand our tactical decisions.

  1. Decrease the Take&Hold timer down to 3 turns. This automatically engages player to make decisions , rather than camping each other out. ( believe me , I have played numerous Sniper vs Sniper games on “Old Town” map and it takes a week to complete these multiplayer games a piece.

  2. Implement a new class of “melee” soldiers who could only equip melee items , with degenerative skills (such as movement impairing / stun / higher HP) that are specialized to deal with Snipers. YES this is the crucial class that is missing here in RAD Soldiers when we could see it in many other games. I hope nobody takes this the wrong way but , Snipers are just overpowered and therefore it dictates the entire game. In other balanced games , there are valid “anti-sniper” classes and are actively pursued :slight_smile:

  3. The range of sight that reveals a sniper must be increased by one square . For commander / radar / frenchlady’s robot.

  4. Soldier class could be redeemed with perhaps a movement boost to their rifles , since no other classes could use their . Like , if a Spud Grunt equips a pistol , he should be able to move 4 more squares ? This should discourage sniper heavy teams - simply by leveling the playing field. (Which is what RAD Soldiers is about in the first place?)

I hope people who feels the same way - perhaps you want to explore more into “Engineer” teams ? or perhaps “healing school” teams ? This is our chance to band together and make that curiosity possible. But first we have to deal with the gameplay limitations which seems to favour Sniper teams .

Thumb me up so the developers could see this , and add me as a friend in-game . My Username is : Hendrov :cool:

Cheers ! :slight_smile:

(General_Rommel) #2

The fix is a simple one. The damage should be reduced

With the game using tiles and limited movement, the weapons have 4 major characteristics:

  • range
  • damage
  • SP cost
  • energy cost

SP and energy cost seems about right, the SP cost affects deployment variety, and energy costs is nicely balanced in relation to other weapons and in how many times a LW, MW, or HW can fire

But the thing about range is that it’s harder to get close (and stay close) than it is to fire from a distance. Much harder.

All the other weapons have a trade off in damage vs range. The closer you get, the more damage you do (pistols, SMG, shotguns, HMG), and the ultimate example of this dynamic is of course melee weapons being the most damaging in the game,as they should be (I know rifles have a penalty when closer but it’s not drastic or hard to overcome, only requiring to move a tile or two away to get full potential). Shotguns are the worst weapons in the game in practice (cost too much SP for their worth, and the Hamjack costs too much energy)

But snipers have this relationship reversed, in that they have BOTH damage and range. The botherer, fryer, and even the Otto are too strong (HSR is balanced by the excessive energy cost and SP cost investment necessitating weaker weapon be used with other team mates)

The HSR is balanced by those 2 factors being extreme, but the same formula shouldn’t be applied to all of them (making the sniper class universally bad, an extreme change)

Just tone down the sniper damage. Make it’s defining advantage characteristic over other weapons be RANGE, but range only, not range AND damage.

(g00n) #3

with experience in FPS games taking flags, snipers always got out of hand there would be to many players taking this class sit back and do headshots. It got so bad that it got to a stage a max amount was given so players would actually use other class types.
What Ive seen is the use of snipers and Medics have increased in games rarely do I see engineers being used and Commando is indeed need of some upgrade in weaponary (commando has the most toons =6 /Engineers=4 /Agents=4 /Meds=3)
Commandos and engineers (support) are pretty much what a squad is made up, call them “Rank and File”. Medical and Agents are “Specialists”. Specialist should never out number rank and file. So for example a player fielding a 5 man squad (Capt is the fifth) + 2 rank and file + 2 Specialist or say +3 Rank in file with 1 specialist. A player could field two agents or two medicals or one agent and medical.
With more toons coming in “Cloning” should disappear.

(Warchest_Andy) #4

When the most recent patch went live the damage values listed in the weapon descriptions changed as shown:

Otto: 40 > 32 for 4 AP
Botherer: 69 > 60 for 6 AP
Avenger: 86 or 87? > 82 for 8 AP

The Electri-fryer seems to have been destined to sit between the Otto and the Botherer at 46 damage for 5 AP (but it actually does 54).

However the sniper rifles continued to perform as previously in-game, so these changes appear to have been considered but not pushed “live”. I think that these changes look pretty good in terms of taming sniper dominance without going completely overboard.

I also think there is a fundamental issue with Medium toons which hampers diversity and makes 60% of the Commando class unappealing. Simply put, Mediums are almost always eclipsed by the Lights or Heavies of the same class.

In terms of movement, a Light can move 12 and a Heavy can move 6. A Medium can move 7 which is not enough to differentiate it from a Heavy. The Light has a very clear advantage over both the Heavy and the Medium. The Medium has very little advantage over the Heavy.

In terms of damage output (acknowledging that this will vary from weapon to weapon) the Heavy typically will be able to fire at least once more than the Medium. The Medium often cannot fire more than the Light, especially if a “step out, step in” move is required. The Heavy has a very clear advantage over the Light and the Medium with ~150% of the damage potential in most normal circumstances. The Medium has little to no advantage over the Light with most weapons.

In terms of durability, the Heavy has 300 HP and a clear advantage over the Medium, who has a clear advantage over the Light. This is the only area where the Medium enjoys some clear differentiation.

IMHO the Medium toons need 16 AP. In an instant they would become more viable and see more use. Movement of 8 is not excessive but they would become noticeably faster than a Heavy. Number of shots with most weapons would sit more evenly between a Light and a Heavy, depending on the gun. Some minor tweaks might be needed to skill costs (mainly and perhaps only for the Commander as most of the others should be okay) but this would give the Mediums the leg-up that they need.

(Warchest_Andy) #5

I also quite like the idea of Medics and Agents being “specialists”. Maybe allow up to one at 14 points, up to two at 20 points and up to three at 26 points?

Another way to approach it would be to classify the top-tier weapons (6 SP and above?) as “special”. Allow none at 14 points, up to one at 20 and up to two at 26 points. That would still leave the door open to three Juan w/ Electri-fryer though.

(Smouse) #6

Months ago, I stated that Juan should not have been allowed sniper weapons. I think the game would be way different with only Madame and Pete allowed sniper weapons.
I think the easiest way to change the game play is create maps that make using sniper weapons foolish. I play favela with 0 long range weapons and win the vast majority of them. I usually go first however…

Still, I love the game. Its about adapting.

(Tarq) #7

I agree with W_A that there’s an issue with Medium toons. I wouldn’t mind trying 16 aps for 'em. Another possibility would be granting them a free move or two/turn. So still only 14 ap, but can move up to 8 or 9. Yet another: Boost all Medium special abilities.

Snipers:
While I’m not convinced they’re OP I do wish I’d see some of the other toons more often.
Another possible nerf: Increase the below-optimum range penalty for sniper rifles.

I don’t like the idea of restricting squad composition via class: I’d much prefer fixing any sniper problem to limiting squad variety.
OTOH, a general boost for soldiers sounds good, and the faster-move-for-lighter-weapon suggestion looks both interesting and would make snipers a bit less attractive.

(g00n) #8

Months ago, I stated that Juan should not have been allowed sniper weapons. I think the game would be way different with only Madame and Pete allowed sniper weapons.

Totally agree.
Character he looks more a hoon than a specialised snipe compared to pete and Madame…as for tesla he feels more towards Juan than a true sniper.

On old town a juan set up wiith high powered snipe rifle down by the flank you have to run to flag area, is a nightmare to rid when you cant chuck up some stuff from below balcony (he can cover quite a lot from just one move and shoot in that position). you do a little damage but more likely he does more if he dosnt fire all his shots camping. a medic comes along to patch him up making it a waste of time especially artillery barrage.

  1. Decrease the Take&Hold timer down to 3 turns. This automatically engages player to make decisions , rather than camping each other out. ( believe me , I have played numerous Sniper vs Sniper games on “Old Town” map and it takes a week to complete these multiplayer games a piece.

I kinda agree with this but I only had one game go upto 26 turns and opposition went inactive after 3 weeks playing.
But only maps that find players camping…

(KINONEZ21) #9

I also agree with medium toons having 16 points, but disagree on taking Juan’s snipers away, I think it’s important to have light, medium and Hevy toons on every class, it creates diversity

(Ciakgb) #10

I’m playing Kin with Team Chump:)

(KINONEZ21) #11

Hahaha xD did you notice the bug during or match? I placed a mine, your Juan and Pete used Ghost, passed over the mine but it did not activate it, I later used the artillery to push Juan back, making him land of the mine, which when of only at the end of my turn.

(Ciakgb) #12

Yeah, I saw it. Don’t remind me:)

I’ve given up on the little things these days and just enjoying the game, eccentricities and all!

FINALLY at work today, subbing at a swank high school. Ok, between burning with passion about Nelson Mandella and taking attendance, I might have made a few moves today covertly on my ipad:)

Can’t go nuts, trying to get a full time gig so that Im not haunting the forums 24/7!!!

(KINONEZ21) #13

Hahaha yeah, it didn’t bother me, I was just suprised, just improvised xD

(Jerry-Rigs) #14

Don’t really have an opinion, just babbling.

Someone had suggested that the problem is not necessarily Juan but the Botherer. What would happen if you bump up it’s squad points? It then becomes very expensive to have one (or more). Or is the general consensus that any sniper rifle in Juan’s hands is too much?

Someone pointed out that that sniper rifle damage doesn’t drop off quickly as the target gets closer. I kind of like the idea of having minimum ranges for rifles, maybe as much as 5 with damage dropping rapidly from the max at the longest range.

(Warchest_Andy) #15

The damage drop-off definitely could be more pronounced. I think a slight reduction in base damage wouldn’t hurt either, tbh.

(General_Rommel) #16

[QUOTE=Jerry-Rigs;444616]Don’t really have an opinion, just babbling.

Someone had suggested that the problem is not necessarily Juan but the Botherer. What would happen if you bump up it’s squad points? It then becomes very expensive to have one (or more). Or is the general consensus that any sniper rifle in Juan’s hands is too much?

Someone pointed out that that sniper rifle damage doesn’t drop off quickly as the target gets closer. I kind of like the idea of having minimum ranges for rifles, maybe as much as 5 with damage dropping rapidly from the max at the longest range.[/QUOTE]

It IS the botherer - Juan gets picked on because he’s the only HW that can wield it. Should they add another HW agent, it’s be an easy switch.

Heck… imagine Ivan (has the better grenade IMO), or Mendes - (would then have BOTH long range damage potential AND short range damage potential with his special ability), would be even scarier if they could use the botherer.

Think about it.

The solution is simple, and if there’s anything “broken” about the game engine it’s this. Agent weapons have BOTH range and power, when they should only have one of those characteristics (obviously, it should be range).

At least reduce the close range damage much more dramatically (no more than pistol damage, say within 5 tiles), so they’d be severely penalized for allowing enemies to get close - they have this philosophy already, it just isn’t emphasized enough. The botherer is still as good as the hoo hah from 2-3 tiles away - so there’s little point in a commando using a hoo hah to close the distance, because it only makes the duel “even”

And again… Even if this were true, and Mendes could wield it, it make my point even more clear

Other tactical TBS games having a long range artillery unit, often even have a “dead zone”, where they couldn’t even target an enemy right next to them (similar to grenades or Gus’s squirter, where they can’t fire within 2 tiles). Perhaps it should be the same for snipers (or reduce them to like 8 damage from close range).

Increasing the SP would work as well, but I have a feeling it’d make it more complicated to balance out (for example, the HSR already employs this suggestion, and would make the other snipers obsolete)

Again, it’s the damage of the snipers is simply too high, at all ranges. Tweaking this would be the simplest a solution.

(g00n) #17

Just a thought at 5am in morn…I’m thinking maybe weapons should influence the toons movement?
It is weird to see weapons that are actually quite heavy to run around or awkward work well for light toons, better than medium or heavy, take dave and spud for example with the biffo LMG which works better!
Weapons like knife and audomatic give (+1 ) to energy
( 0 ) No bonus hooh hah/smg/ baseball bat/ katana/otto
(-1 ) biffo/ botherer/ salad mixer/ electric fryer
(-2 ) minigun/avenger /chainsaw
So Madeleine would be 11energy with a botherer. Juan would 16 with avenger. Dave with a minigun 10
Meagon with knife 13
It may stuff up the heavies more in balance though :confused:
If weight of toon can affect movement due to armour or size maybe then limit the weapons to size rather than class, but keep special weapons eg minigun to commando and sniper rifles to agent. Some weapons like smg could cross over to other lights keeping spray smg for med/ agents and the best shotguns to engineers. Mesa go back to sleep now.

(General_Rommel) #18

[QUOTE=g00n;444702]Just a thought at 5am in morn…I’m thinking maybe weapons should influence the toons movement?
It is weird to see weapons that are actually quite heavy to run around or awkward work well for light toons, better than medium or heavy, take dave and spud for example with the biffo LMG which works better!
Weapons like knife and audomatic give (+1 ) to energy
( 0 ) No bonus hooh hah/smg/ baseball bat/ katana/otto
(-1 ) biffo/ botherer/ salad mixer/ electric fryer
(-2 ) minigun/avenger /chainsaw
So Madeleine would be 11energy with a botherer. Juan would 16 with avenger. Dave with a minigun 10
Meagon with knife 13
It may stuff up the heavies more in balance though :confused:
If weight of toon can affect movement due to armour or size maybe then limit the weapons to size rather than class, but keep special weapons eg minigun to commando and sniper rifles to agent. Some weapons like smg could cross over to other lights keeping spray smg for med/ agents and the best shotguns to engineers. Mesa go back to sleep now.[/QUOTE]

Things like this throw the whole game engine into disarray no? All for a single isolated problem.

Nobody is complaining about the other weapons - I think the melee class weapons were corrected with the energy reduction. If anything else needs tweaked it’s the engineer’s deployable’s HP (maybe medium toon’s specials need energy reduction by 1 pt).

For example - your suggestion would nerf the Avenger and HMG even more. Do you really think the game needs this? Does anybody really think the Avenger and HMG and chainsaw are a problem? No… so why nerf them, when this is really about Juan+Botherer.

Re-writing the rules all for one thing - Juan with the Botherer - seems a bit much.

I propose something like this (and again, this is only about the sniper weapons, nothing else, including Juan, gets changed):

Range / Damage:

1 / can’t target
2 / can’t target
3 / 8 damage
4 / 10 damage
5 / 12 damage
6 / 58 damage
7 / 66 damage
8 / 69 damage

So pretty much the effective range is STRICTLY 6-8 tiles away. Get within that range, and even a pistol is better… get up close and personal, and the toon can’t even target the enemy. This example is for the Botherer, but can be applied to the Otto and Electri-Fryer as well (they are better in terms of SP and energy use, which again, does not get touched).

The beauty of this is that nothing else gets changed. SP, Energy, range… stay the same. This is simply a damage tweak.

I know the game is unrealistic, and stylistically these are caricatures, but it’d kind of represent these situations:

  1. At range, the toon is able to line up a shot through the scope = it hits, and hits hard.

  2. If you rush the toon, he can’t line up his shot, fires from the hip = glancing flesh wound

(they could even use a different animation for this - instead of the kneeling and carefully aiming animation they use now, they could have the toon “quick-fire” the weapon when it selects a target this close)

  1. If you get within arms reach = the toon can’t raise sniper rifle in time, and can’t fire back.

Those numbers are just off the top of my head, and would have to be tested in the field to get it right (looks a bit extreme, but this is a knee-jerk reaction), but this represents the underlying philosophy. It’s nothing new (except for the “dead zone” within 2 tiles, which is a concept used in other TBS games), as the game engine does this now - It just doesn’t do it dramatically enough. The last thing I’d add to this is to suggest that the MAX damage should be reduced a bit as well (say the Botherer does only 60 damage at its ideal range).

(Ciakgb) #19

Much more elegant change. Maybe 1-3 squares should have a little damage, though, I’m sure a sniper round would still hurt a little…

Viva la chump!

(Jerry-Rigs) #20

[QUOTE=General_Rommel;444742]Things like this throw the whole game engine into disarray no? …
I propose something like this (and again, this is only about the sniper weapons, …
Range / Damage:
1 / can’t target
2 / can’t target
3 / 8 damage
4 / 10 damage
5 / 12 damage
6 / 58 damage
7 / 66 damage
8 / 69 damage
So pretty much the effective range is STRICTLY 6-8 tiles away. Get within that range, and even a pistol is better…
Those numbers …would have to be tested in the field to get it right ([/QUOTE]

I like it. Figure out the numbers. Would this logic apply to all weapons classes:
Melee: melee range only
Pistols: best at point blank range
Shotguns: best at point blank range
SMG’s: best at short range
Assault Rifle: best at medium range
Minigun: best at medium Range
LMG: best at medium Range
Sniper: best at long range

Perhaps making the commando-only weapons better in mid ranges would make the class more popular. I usually see (and run) specialist heavy squads.