The Sniping Gameplay : Update Suggestion for better game balance and diversity .

(g00n) #21

I’m not a fan of a total miss at close range. I rather see the optimum range dropped so the last two range squares emphasise the extreme range, the reduction to PB be great. Right now it seems that around 6 square range feels the balance and gives short range/melee weapons a chance to close in but snipers will get best damage, all higher will be annoying and will still give damage but not to totally wipe out a toon, unless you doubling or tripling up.
The thing I hate about Juan with a high powered snipe rifle is that he still can do a good amount of damage around 6 with flamer if anyone closes in. Toys don’t last as long as well.

(General_Rommel) #22

[QUOTE=g00n;444849]I’m not a fan of a total miss at close range. I rather see the optimum range dropped so the last two range squares emphasise the extreme range, the reduction to PB be great. Right now it seems that around 6 square range feels the balance and gives short range/melee weapons a chance to close in but snipers will get best damage, all higher will be annoying and will still give damage but not to totally wipe out a toon, unless you doubling or tripling up.
The thing I hate about Juan with a high powered snipe rifle is that he still can do a good amount of damage around 6 with flamer if anyone closes in. Toys don’t last as long as well.[/QUOTE]

The problem is that many other weapons have an ideal range at 6, and is still a losing proposition if everyone tries to keep it at that range. What is desired by most is a push towards closer-range play. The melee energy reduction reflects this - the problem is that it makes the extreme trade off of range vs damage, and many maps are not suited for melee.

People want closer range play, but with guns, and not just melee. It’s still much easier to just kill enemies before they can get in range, which explains the imbalance of Agents vs engineers in the game.

It’s not HW, MW, LW, or special abilities… It’s the guns. They are the main damage dealers (ciabk Meagan madness notwithstanding), the primary factor in soldier selection (after all, SP is based on the guns you bring, not the toons)

The botherer is a problem because it outclasses most weapons, not just at range, but in most situations. Consider that at close range, it still does (1/2/3/4… Etc):

27 30 39 49 58 66 69 69

Compare this to the 5 SP pt guns, like the hoo hah (at best matches at 1-2 tiles)
24 33 36 36 36 36

Biffo (only superior at 2-4 tiles; I know this is 6 SP)
36 52 56 56 56 56

Spray n pray (little advantage, even at its ideal range)
33 33 30 24 24

Awuga (ditto… Worse yet in this situation in knocks back… I’d actually like if this was optional… But that’s a suggestion for another thread)
37 31 25 23

The shotguns (only wins the duel at range 1, and loses it with just 1 more square):
68 36 22 17
57 30 15 8

I know the argument is that if some of those get within 1 tile (like the shotguns), they should chew the botherer-user up, but we know in practice that is difficult (certainly more difficult then sniping from afar, particularly when Gus, captains artillery, or madame’s movement is involved):

  • often take a couple hits getting close, so by the time you’re in range for the “duel”, there is an imbalance of HP
  • some of them lose the advantage because of the knock back
  • and most of all… You burn too much energy getting in range, so by the time you get close, you have enough for one shot. Meanwhile the agent simply stands still uses energy to take shots…

… and then ghosts away when you finally get close :mad:

Add Gus, Knockback, Molotov, UAV, headshot, etc… and we see why the sniper rifles are pound-for-pound (or energy-for-energy) the best weapons in the game

(Warchest_Andy) #23

I would like to see the damage drop-off for the sniper rifles increased but personally I wouldn’t want it to hit zero. Taking your figures for the current damage model (27/30/39/49/58/66/69/69) I’d prefer something like 12/15/21/30/42/60/69/69 instead. The gun would still preform much as it does now at optimum range but there would be a significant reward for those prepared to risk closing the distance without the Botherer-user becoming completely defenceless.

Personally I would also like to see a slight (~10%?) reduction in the damage of all of the sniper rifles as well as this kind of increased emphasis on damage drop-off. There is definitely a danger of “a nerf too far” here but taming them a little would be good for the game, IMHO.

(KINONEZ21) #24

[QUOTE=Warchest_Andy;444867]I would like to see the damage drop-off for the sniper rifles increased but personally I wouldn’t want it to hit zero. Taking your figures for the current damage model (27/30/39/49/58/66/69/69) I’d prefer something like 12/15/21/30/42/60/69/69 instead. The gun would still preform much as it does now at optimum range but there would be a significant reward for those prepared to risk closing the distance without the Botherer-user becoming completely defenceless.

Personally I would also like to see a slight (~10%?) reduction in the damage of all of the sniper rifles as well as this kind of increased emphasis on damage drop-off. There is definitely a danger of “a nerf too far” here but taming them a little would be good for the game, IMHO.[/QUOTE]

I agree that the damage should never reach 0 and perhaps it would help if they get a big damage reduction in the first 4 tiles, and slightly the 5, but should not affect the damage done at a range from 6 or more, this has already been done during the last update and additional 10 % would make the snipers useless and this would created a whole other problem, next you’ll be complaining that everyone is using close range toons, which has happened in the past.

(Warchest_Andy) #25

For the record, I definitely don’t want to make snipers useless. However taking the edge off of the damage that they can do and defining their role more clearly as long-range killers would be good, IMHO. There is a danger of “over-nerfing” and I’m not in favour of that either.

Taming snipers slightly and giving Medium toons 16 AP would, IMVHO, massively increase the diversity we would see in teams at 14, 20 and 26 SP and make for a more interesting and enjoyable game. We might even see a Lesser Spotted Taschman from time to time, :smiley:

It may never happen but I’m allowed to wish for it. :slight_smile:

(KINONEZ21) #26

I’m you agree, the bost of 16 for all meduim is something that I also look foward to see in the future, I belive this will baance the game even more.

(General_Rommel) #27

[QUOTE=Warchest_Andy;444867]I would like to see the damage drop-off for the sniper rifles increased but personally I wouldn’t want it to hit zero. Taking your figures for the current damage model (27/30/39/49/58/66/69/69) I’d prefer something like 12/15/21/30/42/60/69/69 instead. The gun would still preform much as it does now at optimum range but there would be a significant reward for those prepared to risk closing the distance without the Botherer-user becoming completely defenceless.

Personally I would also like to see a slight (~10%?) reduction in the damage of all of the sniper rifles as well as this kind of increased emphasis on damage drop-off. There is definitely a danger of “a nerf too far” here but taming them a little would be good for the game, IMHO.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I admit that those numbers were just off the op of my head, and a knee-jerk reaction to the situation. It does seem a but extreme, the way I had it, but its the idea I’m fond off

(g00n) #28

Just curious but have they changed Petes headshot ability, I’m sure it used to carry on until you use it in your turn, now preparing a turn early with chance to shoot back ( energy to shoot in opponant if attacked) it is taken away?

(g00n) #29

Just another angle so mediums will shine, and probably annoy heavy fans. Reduce heavy to 16 energy instead! It will affect movement and maybe balance out attacks, we have a tendancy to try to add more when lately dev been reducing:p eg the attributes and melee weaps.
Lights (4) --dave/mad/meg/Kate
Mediums (8) 9 includes capt --arch/spud/stub/dee/Tim/pete/tesla/merci
Heavy (5) --gus/Carlos/Juan/mendaz/Ivan

(badman) #30

This is something we’re looking to test internally, in fact. :slight_smile:

(Ciakgb) #31

Ok but don’t make Ivan’s and such too slow, really should just be Juan…I still say 17energy would do it.

(Warchest_Andy) #32

Interesting. I’d be curious to hear how that goes.

At the moment (and IMHO) there isn’t a balance problem between the Light and the Heavy; one has far greater mobility while the other is more durable and generally can pump out more shots if static. The balance problem is with the Medium, who is almost always eclipsed by his Light or Heavy counterparts.

Making the Heavy worse rather than making the Medium better will balance the Medium a bit against the Heavy but risks making the Light better than both of them, especially since the Heavy will become so painfully slow. I can see the direction of thinking but I’m not convinced that it will lead to greater equality between the Lights, Mediums and Heavies; it may simply shift the imbalance elsewhere.

Still, that’s the beauty of testing! :slight_smile:

(g00n) #33

I like using gus my only heavy, with a smg he really can do a lot damage if not moving-the amount attacks is freaky compared to light and mediums so losing two energy be interesting. He has already been reduced with water gun number which at the moment i feel is really balanced and you really have to think when to use it.

Ivan will need to reduce concussion one or two down to balance reduced energy.
As for Juan and Carlos and mendaz I cannot say with their atributes( don’t have them)

Andy you are right about the lights but adding extra energy onto using grenade, drone, mines and toxic may help??

Currently playing Against three gus ,Juan with botherer and Ivan! Plus cap–got wasted

(General_Rommel) #34

I think the way HP, movement points, and energy between the weight classes are just fine.

Solution is to reduce the Sniper gun damage - the complaints about Juan will stop, because it’s not about him, it’s the gun (easily demonstrated if another HW were able to use the Botherer).

Changing the MW energy points from 14 is a mistake, IMO. It would allow guys like Pete to shoot the Otto 4 times (are you nuts!) and the Fryer 3 times (ditto)… Pete would easily be able to use headshot twice in a single turn, etc.

If the mediums need a boost, how about a simpler solution? Reduce the more costly special abilities energy cost by 1 point or so? That would leave the number of times they can fire a gun alone, but increase their usefulness due to special attacks. For some this was already done (like Archie, whom I think is fine now), but for guys like Spud his bazooka costs too much energy for the range it has, and Dee and Tim’s toys could only cost 4 energy (maybe bump Tim’s turret’s HP by 50 as well), for a few examples.

Or… just reduce the sniper damage…

(Ciakgb) #35

Juan with a fryer is just as bad, if not worse.

(Warchest_Andy) #36

IMHO sniping needs a rebalance and Mediums need a rebalance but rebalancing sniping won’t fix the Mediums and rebalancing Mediums won’t fix sniping.

Two separate issues requiring two separate solutions, in all likelihood.

(EL-CO) #37

Agree with most of the points.
Sniper rifles are overpowered and should be balanced. Advantage in range is very important. Reduce sniper rifle damage ~10% (in long range: 7~sqs), ~30% (in mid range: 4~6 sqs) and ~50% (in short range: ~3sqs). Then there will be an option to rush to snipers.
And the Electri-Fryer is too powerful. Reduce its damage or increase SP cost to 6.

For the medium units, I also think it would be nice to increase their energy to 15 or 16. Reducing the heavy units’ energy will make light units better than both medium and heavy units. I usually prefer light units over heavy units.

And I would like to have new weapons with range of 7 for commando. Optimum range can be 3-5 or 4-6, but can deal small amount of damage at range 7. Otherwise support fire ability is not very useful.

(Tarq) #38

Snipers: The more a damage reduction for sniper weapons is kicked around - esp. at sub-optimum range - the more I like it.

Mediums:

My wish would be giving Mediums a 1.5 move cost. Or doubling all the AP allowances and costs, except Mediums are move-cost 3 rather than 4. Either would keep things mostly the same - the big difference would be a sudden drop in the game’s elegant simplicity - except Mediums would have a move of 9. I’d have to stop thinking of them as “anemic Heavies.”

Running some numbers on AP 16 Heavies vs. AP 14 Mediums, the Mediums still, IMO, come off as anemic Heavies.

Heavies -2 AP. Example weapon: LMG
Heavy AP 16: 3 attacks at 0 moves, 2 attacks at 2 moves, 1 attack at 3 moves.
Medium AP 14: 2 attacks at 0 moves, 2 attacks at 2 moves, 1 attack at 4 moves.

One extra move at 1 attack doesn’t seem worth the loss of 50 hps and 1 extra attack at 0 moves. And there remains the issue of the change of Light vs. Heavy balance. IMO it already slightly favors Lights. The saving grace of the Heavies is that they fulfill a very different role: They can really lay on the hurt if they start the turn well-positioned. Lights, OTOH, give you the maneuverability to greatly-help setting up that positioning.

Mediums often lack the extra shot Heavies get at very-low moves, but spend APs too quickly when moving to come anywhere near matching a Light.

If Mediums instead get 2 APs.

Heavy AP 18: 3 attacks at 1 move, 2 attacks at 2 moves, 1 attack at 4 moves.
Medium AP 16: 3 attacks at 0 move, 2 attacks at 3 moves, 1 attack at 5 moves.

They’re still at lot more like Heavies than something mid-way between Lights and Heavies, but here the Heavy/Medium trade-off seems much more even. The extra maximum movement for an AP 16 Medium helps too.

The LMG (or any AP 5 weapon) may be the most favorable example of the Medium +2 AP vs. Heavy balance, but I think the general trend holds for other weapons: Almost as good at low movement, a little better at higher. I’d characterize the current balance as: Not as good at low movement, only slightly better at higher. Hardly a dramatic difference, but IMO it’d be an improvement.

(Coup_de_grace) #39

I understand the need for diversity, but honestly mid weight toons are neither here nor there. Some mid toon like Pete can still hold their reputation as being a formidable opponent, but the rest falls into a category of neither mobile enough, nor strong enough standstill firepower. This effects the commando type unit the most as they fall mostly in the medium weight toons. Mostly i don’t find it is the weight class problem but it’s more of the individual toon problem itself. To list a few: Carlito, Spud Grunt, Herr Taschman. Their utility is limited, thus they are more like carnival toons rather than deadly soldiers. They are fun to play with and mess around but in the big league they are mostly benchwarmers. To add to the list of benchwarmers is Dee Hatlacker, still in recuperation period from a “bug” flu :3

I understand that snipers are a rather strong class, but i don’t find them overpowering. But when an experience adversary loads him/herself with fully sniper toons it can make it hell for anyone. Perhaps it isnt the snipers themselves that needs any changes but the amount limitation of sniper toons that one can bring along into battle. 14pt tier - 1 sniper limit, 20pt & 26pt - 2 sniper limit perhaps?

If that isnt sufficient, maybe snipers cant fire at point blank 1 square range? I mean that is the standard adjustment one encounters in games that long range units usually cant attack at short range? Assuming we fix the sniper’s range as 6, that means Otto cant fire at point blank, botherer/HSR cant fire at 1st to 2nd square range, and electri-fryer cant fire at 1st to 3rd square range. At minumum range, damage is only half of the maximum. Since snipers have 7-9 range cover it obviously outclasses the rest. But with this adjustment in place their “effective” range is only 6, because at close ranges they cant do squat.

Obviously there is so much to cover in terms of balance. Dont even get me started on map layouts. But overall its still a fun playable game to pass time and work the gears of doom inside our heads

(g00n) #40

I suggested somewhere of limit of sniper deployment and Medical (specialist), a few didnt like the limitation it will cause. It seems we will never truely agree with anything for we all have a way we use the toons to our advantage may it be movement, health, weapon type, attributes, toon type (including cloning) or category.
Im quite anti any projectile weapon having ranges that it cannot fire at, I prefer lower damage caused as the sniper rifle is hard to aim and get into position when attacked close range-Avenger and botherer are quite big guns to keep steady, be funny if toon with long range type guns suddenly change animation rather than fire gun in melee it uses rifle butt to hit back with lower damage :stuck_out_tongue: just to show snipes do have a weakness.
I am interested in how tests going on reduced heavies moves. I feel a heavy with a smg with upto six goes to shoot is slightly overbalanced with Mediums and lights (I kinda like it personally when I get a chance to kill a toon-though deep down I feel it is something that is overpowered game wise to other weight types and something I prefer to be fixed despite my use of advantage)
Commandoes should have the most vairety of weapons. Medical should be the most limited.