The potential Phantom overhaul.

(Eox) #1

So, following the dev-stream catch-up that @Faraleth made, the dev team should look at Phantom sooner or later. This worries me a lot. Don’t get it wrong, I am not against it : I am just afraid of it getting us back to the old and extremely frustrating to fight against character we used to get (because fun has to go in both ways, and is as important as balance).

You see, back to the period previous to the Phantom nerf, a vast majority was complaining about him not especially due to being overpowered, but for making the game extremely frustrating to play. A single Phantom could give you the urge to throw you computer out of the window and squish kittens with a bowling ball : reason ? The invisibility + armor combo. Set yourself invisible, rush at people, don’t get damaged due to your broken armor system, get cheap kills with your katana, rage and tears… And it was far from being the hardest thing to do. We all agree here, it’s not really the fact that you kill someone at short range with a katana the issue. The issue was more the fact that you wouldn’t get damaged by rushing at someone, which is frustrating.

Besides the fact that Phantom was such an insane pain to deal with to the point to kill the game for a lot of people, he was also accused of being poorly suited to the game, and having no teamplay potential. Two states that I personally found a bit wrong, tough I have to admit : I have yet to see a Phantom player trying to play with his teammates.

Then the nerf update hit, with a lot of questionable changes. Without a doubt, it made the game playable again for those of us who had an insane grudge against Phantom (and I won’t hide it, I am part of those guys). But it only fixed the symptoms, not the disease itself. Phantom was still played the way a good part of community found wrong (use your armor for tanking and rushing people with your melee, not being sneaky), but he was nerfed so heavily that you had no more reasons to complain against him.

However, while I hated the old version of Phantom with passion, I was part of those who wanted to see him put back to a playable state. Mainly because it was a big waste. I’ll just say what I am saying since the start : he should be reworked integrally ! I know lots of players agreed with me there. By the way if you are a fan of Phantom, or just concerned by game balance, I deeply invite you to give your opinion on that thread, because that might be the home stretch.

Discussing with @Watsyurdeal and @Jojack about a Phantom rework, we concluded that the problem was in three points : armor + invisibility is a frustrating thing to deal with, low skill indexing, and Phantom needs a way to be helpful for his team. The armor part of the skill was the reason numero uno about why Phantom was so much despicted for, and his lack of teamplay potential was also an issue. Lot of ideas then were suggested, not only by us, but by a lot of people. Few were agreed as good by most of the community who wanted to share their opinion :

  • @Watsyurdeal 's rework : as far as I remember, it consisted as making the invisibility as a way to position yourself, and make it work only this way. Like the Spy from TF2, you would be unable to attack while invisible : you would had to disable your invisibility first. On the other hand, invisibility would make you 100% invisible. In addition, Phantom would get an additionnal skill, useful for teamplay. An EMP idea was suggested (disable installations), as well as a way to detect players around. More information here : http://forums.dirtybomb.nexon.net/discussion/16849/phantom-rebuilt-from-scratch
  • The “split” rework : it’s an idea that a lot of people suggested : splitting the armor and the invisibility skill. No more invisible while being armored and vice-versa : you would have to choose between being an enforcer or being deceptive, because activating one of your two abilities will always put your two abilities in cooldown at the same time. Sadly I can’t find the thread that suggested this again. If you are one of those that suggested that idea, please tell me. :slight_smile:
  • In addition I would like to suggest also my own rework : my idea consisted to get rid of the armor part, and revert the invisibility’s opacity at it’s previous state (or slightly more visible). You would not get the armor part anymore, but you would be totally free ! Playing the objective while invisible, reviving people while invisibile. You could also attack without interrupting invisibility, but this would make you flicker as long as you are attacking. Taking damage would not drain your invisibility anymore, but you would flicker every time you take damage. Because you can now fully exploit your invisibility in some ways of teamplay like reviving your medic, I didn’t though it was needed to give Phantom another skill (feel free to discuss it).

Let’s then discuss about that Phantom overhaul ! I suggested here some rework ideas, but feel free to suggest yours if you don’t find them appealing. Don’t be afraid about sharing your ideas and opinions.

(Frogteam) #2

I enjoy Phantom in his current state, but if I had to align myself with one of the above ideas, it would be the armor/invisibility split.

Though the idea of improving the invisibility more than a little a bit still sits uneasily with me, too much invisibility brings it back to an enemy that is just too much of a pain to deal with to be worth it.

As an aside, I think Phantom has enough* team-play potential, I just don’t think many people take advantage of it. *(everyone can always use more team-play potential, I feel like his abilities are on par with a number of other mercs)

(_retired_) #3

Splitting them into two different cooldowns is wrong approach.
Player would just attack cloaked and then retreat/continue killing shielded.
What could you do about it? Nothing. What would it require from player using it? Almost nothing.
How much fun is to be against something that is first invisible to you and when you barely notice it, kills your teammate and then being visible says “hahah” and turns his armor on? I mean wtf?

We’re talking about something that requires some effort to use/can be countered with some effort. Before nerf it hardly required any effort and was hard to counter in highly tense enviroment.

Whole idea of samurai-armor-melee-katana-tank-invisible-ninja-recon is just bad one because it combines at least two completely different concepts and approaches towards combat together. I don’t get it how originally this slipped through from everybody’s grasp in beta etc.
It very much looked like merc that was to made appease the wannabe-invincible-lone-wofl crowd.

Question is, do people want the merc to be stealthy recon or berserk armored merc? And I mean all people, just not people who play Phantom.
Just like Dazzler maybe there should have been two different mercs.
Problem is that he’s already out so we’re left of with this really weirdo dude that if he gets too much buff won’t be balanced at all but that cannot be left to his current state either.

I mean if he’s not standing still you should have some chance of noticing him before you’re dead and if you notice him, you should have chance to do something about it before you die.

[quote=“Eox;17178”] You would not get the armor part anymore, but you would be totally free ! Playing the objective while invisible, reviving people while invisibile. You could also attack without interrupting invisibility, but this would make you flicker as long as you are attacking. Taking damage would not drain your invisibility anymore, but you would flicker every time you take damage. [/quote]I don’t think full invisibility is the answer here because
complete invisibility while doing things is just insanity. Why would have engi on your team?

I rather have him change from almost complete invisibilty when he’s standing still to running while he’s somewhat invisible towards some flickering when doing things etc. and heavy flickering attacking/taking damage.

(neverplayseriou) #4

Imo phantom needs more speed, a longer invisibility (on the cost of removing the armor) the armor is imo useless you get hit a few times and your cloacking is on cd for 10 secs…

Maybe make the ‘heavy stab’ (right click) a bit more agile, when you use it your sensivity just goes to 0, the target moves a tiny little bit and you’ve missed :confused:

(Eox) #5

[quote=“crabbyDimension;75884”]Splitting them into two different cooldowns is wrong approach.
Player would just attack cloaked and then retreat/continue killing shielded.
What could you do about it? Nothing. What would it require from player using it? Almost nothing.
How much fun is to be against something that is first invisible to you and when you barely notice it, kills your teammate and then being visible says “hahah” and turns his armor on? I mean wtf?
[/quote]

Actually the two abilities would share the same cooldown. Triggering one of them would put the two abilities in cooldown, so you would always have to choose between acting like an enforcer or being deceptive. I’ll add that information to the main post.

In my rework idea, you are not fully invisible unless you don’t move. I may have forgot to precise it : I though it was obvious enough.

An engineer would still do the job much faster than Phantom, so phantom would be a choice in between, far less reliable but still slightly more reliable than any other non-engie merc. I have nothing against making phantom slightly more visible when he’s working on an objective though : better be sure that he won’t replace them. You made a good point. We shouldn’t make him flick though, because something flickering is more noticeable than something slightly less opaque.

This may be hard to do, but how about a sort of clientside invisibility that makes him less visible the farther you are from him ? If you are close to him he’ll much more noticeable than if you are farther.

(watsyurdeal) #6

I stand by the full cloak but no attacking while cloaked implementation, and the simple reason is counter play and balance.

It’s much easier to deal with someone who has to reveal themself in order to attack you first, and if you don’t notice or pay attention, well that’s your fault.

And I’m sure some people will disagree but there are a ton of things in this game that require your awareness and people have adapted to them, this is no different.

(watsyurdeal) #7

Also, quoting from something on Reddit

"I think the best way to go is to make him fully invisible, but in order to attack, plant, defuse, help up, he has to decloak, which takes 0.5 seconds.

So you have a 1.0 second activation and a 0.5 deactivation, Armor doesn’t kick in until he’s fully cloaked, and disappears the moment he wants to decloak.

This way, he has a decent escape tool, positioning tool, AND the enemy has a viable chance to hear Phantom, turn around, and take him out before he gets too close.

It’s the best way to go imo, both sides win."

(Eox) #8

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;75931”]Also, quoting from something on Reddit

"I think the best way to go is to make him fully invisible, but in order to attack, plant, defuse, help up, he has to decloak, which takes 0.5 seconds.

So you have a 1.0 second activation and a 0.5 deactivation, Armor doesn’t kick in until he’s fully cloaked, and disappears the moment he wants to decloak.

This way, he has a decent escape tool, positioning tool, AND the enemy has a viable chance to hear Phantom, turn around, and take him out before he gets too close.

It’s the best way to go imo, both sides win."[/quote]

It hurts me a bit to say it, because I wanted to see the Invisibility being used in more versatile ways, but I have to also agree that your idea seems the best for now. Indeed, we have to think about something with counterplay. An ability with no counterplay is everything but fun to play against.

What have you though about the second ability ? Have you still the EMP in mind or something else ?

(watsyurdeal) #9

Honestly, any thing that gives him sort of intel function like the Heart Beat Sensor, or the IR Goggles, I’m fine with.

Phantom is a stealthy guy but he is also a Recon class, he needs a way to help his team beyond just killing people. In theory his shield COULD allow him to be the perfect body blocker, but I don’t see people using it that way.

He needs something different, something that he can use to relay either deployable positions, enemy positions, or hinder deployables, and it has to be quick and simple to understand.

(Samniss_Arandeen) #10

Point at enemy. Press E. Enemy is marked on friendly radar. Two at a time, marked for ten seconds.

(_retired_) #11

I just don’t think he needs that so much extra push like emp grenade. If he gets better stealth abilities he’s able to destroy aura stations and like that anyways. But I’m open to suggestions how he could be more viable towards team play.

I think the problem here like with many mercs is that if you just count towards against one Phantom, but what if there are more than one?
If the whole team play will concentrate into spotting Phantoms it would suck big time. Does it matter if it happens on pubs/comp?

He needs really just small buff rather than overall workaround since it would end up being just another miss. That’s why I’m also against splitting those armors/invisiblity because even alone they can be gamebreakers. “Correcting” them to yet another hot mess won’t cut it.

If the other team has Aura+Rhino or there’s Vassili, at least you know how to counter those and you can try to do something about it, but if you every time you spawn your gameplay is concentrated into one merc that has such advantage like invisiblity/armor with which you cannot really hide from it turns into total stupidity because of one merc.
If he can disrupt, distract and sabotage, it’s ok, but if it’s freaking hide&seek while Phantom can stay alive it isn’t anything but the game should be about.

This is Dirty Bomb, not Dirty Phantom.

(watsyurdeal) #12

Well his current ability alone just makes him serve the same role as Fragger or Nader…and in which case you’ll probably just go Fragger anyhow. He needs something to separate him from just being a killing merc. Because if the change I suggest gets added he will be better at his job of killing people, but he’ll also be in turn easier to kill since you can see him coming.

Plus, I think it’d fair to add something that directly affects deployables since things like the Healing Station, Turrets, Mines, they all cause serious problems if the enemy can’t see them.

Having something to deal with them directly is a good teamplay thing that’s weak enough that it’s not worth having alone, but strong enough that it compliments someone like Phantom really well.

(neverplayseriou) #13

@crabbyDimension or you just don’t focus on the phantom…

Don’t walk alone, pay attention to your audio, if a teammate gets hit you can easily hear it.

(_retired_) #14

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;75955”]Plus, I think it’d fair to add something that directly affects deployables since things like the Healing Station, Turrets, Mines, they all cause serious problems if the enemy can’t see them.

Having something to deal with them directly is a good teamplay thing that’s weak enough that it’s not worth having alone, but strong enough that it compliments someone like Phantom really well.[/quote]Yeah, totally agree.
I’m just thinking something that isn’t entirely useless if he gets invisiblity buff anyways.
Maybe a device that you can drop next to deployable and it stops the effect of that deployable but otherwise deployable stays there. And if friendly approaches it, it destroys it with small explosion?
So example Aura coming back her station would notice that it won’t heal anymore and have to shoot her own station to start the cooldown?
Like electronical bug or something?

[quote=“sensitiveJellyfish;75957”]@crabbyDimension or you just don’t focus on the phantom…
Don’t walk alone, pay attention to your audio, if a teammate gets hit you can easily hear it.[/quote]I didn’t mean currently. I meant if he is buffed to the point he becomes the public enemy number one.

(watsyurdeal) #15

Just imagine it like this, imagine the Heartbeat Sensor from Vasilli, but instead of detecting enemies, it disables any deployables within it’s radius. Disabled as in they stop working, and they will stay that way till this emp disappears or is destroyed, once it’s gone, they do their normal wind ups, like the Turret and it’s deploy time, or the Proxy Mines and how long they take to arm, or the healing station and it’s delay till it starts healing again.

It’s simple but effective

(Amerika) #16

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;75979”]Just imagine it like this, imagine the Heartbeat Sensor from Vasilli, but instead of detecting enemies, it disables any deployables within it’s radius. Disabled as in they stop working, and they will stay that way till this emp disappears or is destroyed, once it’s gone, they do their normal wind ups, like the Turret and it’s deploy time, or the Proxy Mines and how long they take to arm, or the healing station and it’s delay till it starts healing again.

It’s simple but effective[/quote]

I really really like that idea.

(_retired_) #17

[quote=“Amerika;75983”][quote=“Watsyurdeal;75979”]Just imagine it like this, imagine the Heartbeat Sensor from Vasilli, but instead of detecting enemies, it disables any deployables within it’s radius. Disabled as in they stop working, and they will stay that way till this emp disappears or is destroyed, once it’s gone, they do their normal wind ups, like the Turret and it’s deploy time, or the Proxy Mines and how long they take to arm, or the healing station and it’s delay till it starts healing again.

It’s simple but effective[/quote]

I really really like that idea.[/quote]
Seconded.

(Eox) #18

I am wondering of there’s any other possibilities than the EMP. The EMP is a good idea indeed, but I just want to be sure that we think about all the possibilities.

Of course, an ability allowing Phantom to spot on the radar a single person like @Samniss_Arandeen suggested is a very good one, but all recons do that (Aimee will also be able to spot enemies as far as I know), so better finding some original ideas like the EMP maybe.

(VincentRJaeger) #19

[quote=“Eox;76499”]I am wondering of there’s any other possibilities than the EMP. The EMP is a good idea indeed, but I just want to be sure that we think about all the possibilities.

Of course, an ability allowing Phantom to spot on the radar a single person like @Samniss_Arandeen suggested is a very good one, but all recons do that (Aimee will also be able to spot enemies as far as I know), so better finding some original ideas like the EMP maybe.[/quote]

One thing I could think up would be a rather annoying one; think either a wave-pulse or grenade that Phantom can use/toss. What it does is drain… say 10% of all abilities and cooldowns. I do not endorse this idea but I’m throwing it out for brainstorming purposes, seeing as it can make Phantom a saboteur-recon like the EMP.

Otherwise he could perhaps get an ability-gun that weakens an enemy that gets hit. I think a bit like the tranquilizer concept from TF2; An enemy hit by it would get maybe a dizzying screen or slower speed, something like that. Again this is more of a brainstorming idea and I do admit that I - again - prefer the EMP mostly.

(RyePanda) #20

[quote=“Watsyurdeal;75979”]Just imagine it like this, imagine the Heartbeat Sensor from Vasilli, but instead of detecting enemies, it disables any deployables within it’s radius. Disabled as in they stop working, and they will stay that way till this emp disappears or is destroyed, once it’s gone, they do their normal wind ups, like the Turret and it’s deploy time, or the Proxy Mines and how long they take to arm, or the healing station and it’s delay till it starts healing again.

It’s simple but effective[/quote]

Or, it could just spot deployables if people want a less powerful buff to him.

Though I’d prefer your idea, but it would need a long CD or deployables could become useless.