Wow, “everytime phantom uses his ability it kills”
Is everyone forgetting that all mercs who has offensive ability they can kill you with it.
Phantom has been useless in competetive for ages and now that they improved him by making his cloak more reliable it all the sudden sucks ass when he ambushes and kills you like he did before the update.
As for being 90hp merc and getting 1 shotted, you are a squishy merc. Phantom is good agaisnt people who go alone.
@watsyurdeal said:
Stealthy merc is good at being stealthy, immediate cry for a nerfI heard this all the time with Spy, till people stuck together and started calling him out.
Before we even begin to talk about nerfing him learn how to fight him first. Then try seeing if he needs more potent counter play or counter picks.
A merc that capitalizes on exploting weak team work should not be nerfed immediately because of that, especially in a TEAM game.
The only counter pick possible is redeye, aside from that there is NO counterplay. It’s not fun to pass the whole game being constantly paranoid for Phantom, and I don’t see why every damn pub squads should pack a redeye just in hope of “countering” one overplayed merc. If Phantom isn’t a threat to game balance, then he is a threat to the enemy team’s enjoyment, which is even worse. If the only player who is having fun when you play a specific character or weapon is you and everyone else around you is getting frustrated, there is a problem, and a gigantic one.
@Gire said:
Wow, “everytime phantom uses his ability it kills”
Is everyone forgetting that all mercs who has offensive ability they can kill you with it.Phantom has been useless in competetive for ages and now that they improved him by making his cloak more reliable it all the sudden sucks ass when he ambushes and kills you like he did before the update.
As for being 90hp merc and getting 1 shotted, you are a squishy merc. Phantom is good agaisnt people who go alone.
And if you look closely, you’ll see that every single ability in the game is supposed to have some kind of counterplay (that more or less works). Fragger needs to cook his grenades which can allow you to see him coming, Arty has visual indicators and a huge artillery sound, Proxy mines emit some kind of bleeping sound as well, etc… So no, not everytime a merc use an ability it kills. Phantom has almost inexistant counterplay to be considered balanced, and the fact that all counterplay possible relies on a single merc is even worse. No merc should be designed this way.
Prior the update Phantom has a decent niche to fullfill as an attacker in order to counter teams heavily relying on deployables (mostly Aura and Turtle). He was far from being useless. Katana addict noobs where the reason why Phantom has such a bad reputation. If nobody was considering Phantom katana’s as his primary or if Phanom wouldn’t have a Katana, we would never have that issue of Phantom being considered too weak at first place. Melee Phantoms are their own demise, not the merc himself.
The new Phantom is a creepypasta merc, the whole game is cursed!
All he need is a manual decloack and a delay before attack like just the time he take to push the damn button on his arm. Same timer as when you decloack manually (it is possible but useless now). No need to be one full second.
My thoughts:
@STARRYSOCK said:
@watsyurdeal said:
Stealthy merc is good at being stealthy, immediate cry for a nerfI heard this all the time with Spy, till people stuck together and started calling him out.
Before we even begin to talk about nerfing him learn how to fight him first. Then try seeing if he needs more potent counter play or counter picks.
A merc that capitalizes on exploting weak team work should not be nerfed immediately because of that, especially in a TEAM game.
Except a team with weak teamwork will usually lose anyways, and all phantom does now is annoy people who can’t even see him to fight back properly.
Countering phantom is basically just “constantly check every corner”. Stealth is great, I love stealth in games, but it really doesn’t fit DB very well. It’s supposed to be a fast paced game, and looking everywhere for the slightest shimmer only slows it down.
Having a merc to piss off people with poor vision and bad teamwork isn’t a benefit to the game, because a weak team isn’t going to do well anyways.Games are supposed to be fun. They’re games for a reason. Having a merc who’s infuriating to play against, especially for new players, isn’t a good idea at all.
Yes, obviously people need time to get used to him more, but that doesn’t mean their observations of him are useless.
So in other words, because the enemy team sucks, Phantom should be punished with a nerf? Your idea of how to judge balance is terribly biased, you do not balance the game around people playing it incorrectly. You balance around those in the mid or high tier of player skill.
And fun is subjective, you know whats not fun for me? Having to play with a team who is passive and does not push, know what helps, a flanker, guess who’s good at that?
For me, Fragger and Phantom compliment how I play perfectly. And for me, the only truly infuriating merc to play against is Rhino, cause the dude is a literal wall.
I’ll have to start a thread of my own at some point if I find the time
@Eox said:
@watsyurdeal said:
Stealthy merc is good at being stealthy, immediate cry for a nerfI heard this all the time with Spy, till people stuck together and started calling him out.
Before we even begin to talk about nerfing him learn how to fight him first. Then try seeing if he needs more potent counter play or counter picks.
A merc that capitalizes on exploting weak team work should not be nerfed immediately because of that, especially in a TEAM game.
The only counter pick possible is redeye, aside from that there is NO counterplay. It’s not fun to pass the whole game being constantly paranoid for Phantom, and I don’t see why every damn pub squads should pack a redeye just in hope of “countering” one overplayed merc. If Phantom isn’t a threat to game balance, then he is a threat to the enemy team’s enjoyment, which is even worse.** If the only player who is having fun when you play a specific character or weapon is you and everyone else around you is getting frustrated, there is a problem, and a gigantic one.**
Proxy, Sparks, Rhino, Fragger, Vasilli, Fletcher, Javelin, all fun mercs, not so fun for the victim
Just pointing out how flawed that argument is, fun is subjective, argue the counter play more if you want to build a good case for changing Phantom at this stage.
@watsyurdeal said:
@Eox said:
@watsyurdeal said:
Stealthy merc is good at being stealthy, immediate cry for a nerfI heard this all the time with Spy, till people stuck together and started calling him out.
Before we even begin to talk about nerfing him learn how to fight him first. Then try seeing if he needs more potent counter play or counter picks.
A merc that capitalizes on exploting weak team work should not be nerfed immediately because of that, especially in a TEAM game.
The only counter pick possible is redeye, aside from that there is NO counterplay. It’s not fun to pass the whole game being constantly paranoid for Phantom, and I don’t see why every damn pub squads should pack a redeye just in hope of “countering” one overplayed merc. If Phantom isn’t a threat to game balance, then he is a threat to the enemy team’s enjoyment, which is even worse.** If the only player who is having fun when you play a specific character or weapon is you and everyone else around you is getting frustrated, there is a problem, and a gigantic one.**
Proxy, Sparks, Rhino, Fragger, Vasilli, Fletcher, Javelin, all fun mercs, not so fun for the victim
Just pointing out how flawed that argument is, fun is subjective, argue the counter play more if you want to build a good case for changing Phantom at this stage.
Yet those still manage to have infinitely more counterplay than Phantom at that right moment (aside from a good Sparks or a good Vassili). They’re annoying, but nothing comparable to that Phantom rework.
I also never said that those mercs were fine and did not need work, because I would be very glad to see those mercs reworked as well so they aren’t as annoying to fight against. Not being fun to fight against is not an issue proper to that Phantom rework, but in that case, it’s a huge offender. Much bigger than any of those mercs you mentioned.
You know, there’s a term for PACIFISTIC GHOST STEALTH RUN in stealth games…
uh , cant see im too impressed ive just been on a team that was ass whipped by a few good phantoms. Granted my team wasnt great but 3 phantoms with over 18K a piece by the time it was over ( underground redux ) points to a feeling of being over run by a single merc .
I’ve got some bad ideas for rework 3.0.
Keep all his abilities as is but make him the squishiest merc, squishier than Sparks but without the added speed advantage.
Or add a non directional buzzing sound whenever a phantom is close by.
Or Make him reload the primary every time he comes out of cloak. If he wants to melee let him cancel reload and switch during the reload animation.
Reduce the cooldown on EMP and increase the cloak cool down to one minute.
I’d say give it a minute. I already see people adjusting in the mere span of a single game to Phantoms on the opposite team. Sure he’s nigh-invisible, but lots of people see me when cloaked. Yes, katana kills are cheap, but you rarely get more than one before the group they’re with kills you. Sometimes not even that, mercs that require 2 slashes to kill are ridiculously fast at getting away from the second slash.
I just like that I can finally move at the same pace as the rest of the game, instead of this ridiculous crouch-walking nonsense. I can’t say I really care much about the EMP, no one destroys deployables anyways, or takes advantage of downed sentries or anything. It messes with your sights when u decloak as well.
A decloaking delay, I dunno, if it’s too long you’ll either get shot dead before you can do anything, or you’ll have to decloak around a corner. That’s not fast or fun imo.
This whole EMP-flanker role everyone has assigned Phantom, I could do without. It’s an unnecessary role, especially with Hunter’s ranged EMP.
Tbh, Phantom is for thinning the herd, and he’s finally good at it. Only the most skilled Phantoms actually wipe teams, but any merc can do that in pro hands. If he’s supposed to be a flanking merc that catches teams from behind, he’s gonna need something more useful than an smg, the katana, and an emp. Cause neither of those is really more than a nuisance if the enemy is paying even a little attention.
It makes no difference, no matter what the argument you bring, the devs WILL nerf Phantom. They wont have a choice.
If they don’t, not only will it damage DB (to the point where it wont recover), it will ruin their reputation for future games (which will be even worse after Brink).
Games require casual audiences to survive, they make up the numbers, and to make up the income from purchases.
The new Phantom is a character that will decimate the casual player base within weeks, which will kill the games future and potential income. SD, what were you thinking? Is this just groundwork for a new merc who uses EMP mines or something?
To be clear, Dirty Bomb to me, is a game about gunplay, and using abilities at the right times for maximum effect. It is not a game about constantly looking behind me while trying to avoid being shot by 3-4 other players while defending or attacking an objective.
Phantom by his very design is cancer, your latest change just makes you guys look like cancer too.
Do you honestly think the new Phantom will attract new players? He wont, he will eviscerate more new players than he brings in. You are playing a dangerous game on this one.
@bgyoshi said:
Time to start paying attention to your surroundings.
That’s not fair…people shouldn’t have to try…everything should be handed to them!
@Sorotia said:
@bgyoshi said:
Time to start paying attention to your surroundings.That’s not fair…people shouldn’t have to try…everything should be handed to them!
Players do pay attention to their surroundings in DB. The map design and angles of attack mean that you are rarely safe, so a large part of the game is paying attention to your surroundings and not falling victim when you move into a position you think will be strong.
And now we have a guy who doesn’t have to worry about what is happening in his vicinity, he can hit a button (low skill), run right at you (low skill) and get a melee kill (low skill), maybe two if everyone is slow to react. He dies afterwards of course, due to having no escape mechanism and being stuck in a shitty situation, but that makes him casual viable and useless in comp. Good design yes?
In a game where everyone else is paying attention, aiming well and moving well, a class that requires little skill to achieve results will always be cancer, especially when he can get into positions where he can distract opponents (they have to turn and deal with him), but also because his team are getting easy licks on his targets. It takes gunplay out of the equation.
Go ask Cliffy B with Lawbreakers, his Wraith class was VERY popular with low skill button mashers in the Lawbreakers Beta, because of how easy it was to get kills with nothing more than low skill button mashing. That worked so well for his new franchise, so much so his beta numbers were huge compared to people who actually bought the game, and most of them said the same, the Wraith is OP, due to how easy it was for low skill clowns to get results with button mashing.
@Zalamael said:
@Sorotia said:
@bgyoshi said:
Time to start paying attention to your surroundings.That’s not fair…people shouldn’t have to try…everything should be handed to them!
Players do pay attention to their surroundings in DB. The map design and angles of attack mean that you are rarely safe, so a large part of the game is paying attention to your surroundings and not falling victim when you move into a position you think will be strong.
And now we have a guy who doesn’t have to worry about what is happening in his vicinity, he can hit a button (low skill), run right at you (low skill) and get a melee kill (low skill), maybe two if everyone is slow to react. He dies afterwards of course, due to having no escape mechanism and being stuck in a @$!# situation, but that makes him casual viable and useless in comp. Good design yes?
In a game where everyone else is paying attention, aiming well and moving well, a class that requires little skill to achieve results will always be cancer, especially when he can get into positions where he can distract opponents (they have to turn and deal with him), but also because his team are getting easy licks on his targets. It takes gunplay out of the equation.
Go ask Cliffy B with Lawbreakers, his Wraith class was VERY popular with low skill button mashers in the Lawbreakers Beta, because of how easy it was to get kills with nothing more than low skill button mashing. That worked so well for his new franchise, so much so his beta numbers were huge compared to people who actually bought the game, and most of them said the same, the Wraith is OP, due to how easy it was for low skill clowns to get results with button mashing.
Players pay attention to their surroundings…yeah with how many people easily die to mines and turrets I doubt that. (Even I make the mistake at times)
Mines only kill you if you don’t anticipate them (or a Proxy runs at you, throws one at you, and then spams it until it explodes, but that is a different issue). They can be avoided otherwise, you just need to think about the map and where you would put one if you were on the other team. Not that hard. Dying to a mine is only slightly less embarrassing than dying to a dead Nader.
Turrets are even easier to deal with, the lock on time is so slow, it is like playing against an AFK Bastion in Overwatch.
I think you and I might be on a different playing level, if you consider mines and turrets to be powerful.
I hate to sound like an over-used meme, but I suspect you are a super happy Phantom player enjoying your newfound ‘skill’ in matches. And not because you were lacking skill to begin with, it was just the game holding you back right?
Nope…you just claimed people pay attention to their surroundings…if people actually did then turret and mine deaths would be almost 0.
They aren’t because people don’t pay attention as you claim, which I guess my rather easy to figure out point went right over your head and as some newb you tried to insult me and failed.
@Sorotia said:
Nope…you just claimed people pay attention to their surroundings…if people actually did then turret and mine deaths would be almost 0.They aren’t because people don’t pay attention as you claim, which I guess my rather easy to figure out point went right over your head and as some newb you tried to insult me and failed.
There is a difference between bad players and good players. Good players can easily overcome mechanics such as mines and turrets, because they play better and have far higher awareness. Bad players run around without thinking, and they fall foul of mines, and if they die to a turret alone, from 100% to 0%, then they exposed themselves too badly as to not be able to recover, which is even worse than dying to a dead Nader.
Then again, if you were a good player you would already understand this. I am guessing you like the new Phantom because finally you can show everyone how great you are at button mashing.
@Zalamael said:
@Sorotia said:
Nope…you just claimed people pay attention to their surroundings…if people actually did then turret and mine deaths would be almost 0.They aren’t because people don’t pay attention as you claim, which I guess my rather easy to figure out point went right over your head and as some newb you tried to insult me and failed.
There is a difference between bad players and good players. Good players can easily overcome mechanics such as mines and turrets, because they play better and have far higher awareness. Bad players run around without thinking, and they fall foul of mines, and if they die to a turret alone, from 100% to 0%, then they exposed themselves too badly as to not be able to recover, which is even worse than dying to a dead Nader.
Then again, if you were a good player you would already understand this. I am guessing you like the new Phantom because finally you can show everyone how great you are at button mashing.
Bzzzzzz…Sorry…wrong again…but you keep making assumptions! You know what they say about people who make assumptions.
He is one of my lowest played mercs…I’ve even almost played Guardian as much as I have him.
I could say you just aren’t a great player and you obviously don’t pay attention since Phantoms are killing you…but I’m obviously better than you 