The Downhill of our beloved and how to slow it down


(GatoCommodore) #1

DB…Well, it won’t get better. Not anytime soon.

every good things must come to an end.
when the time comes we must be ready to let go, but until then, it is just ethical to keep it alive as long as possible.

what DB lack is not gameplay, its not lack of customization, its not the playerbase, its not the instant gratification
The devs do work hard to make this game as good as possible

the gameplay is pretty good for a free to play
it has more customization released since 2015
the playerbase are already plugging the hole and currently floating and not sinking anymore
instant gratification? how is skyhammer not more instant?

so what lacked with DB?

Trend

do you think everybody loves to play PUBG or Fortnite? No, not really. People just play it because its the trend.
half of my friends in steam dont really like playing battle royale because its unbalanced, random, too chaotic at times.
but why they play?
Its the trend.

DB was in the trend of Free to play team based shooter back in 2015.

by a slight chance DB can get more popular again “IF” Team based shooter is trending again.
currently DB is not that popular because its just not Trendy enough.

now, DB will and by will i mean there is no doubt that this is currently happening, slide down and get shutdown like many free to play games out there.

how to stop this slide? you cant.
but we can slow it down enough so that it could last pretty long until SD make new game or something.

my proposition is to buy stuff with real money.

im really thankful to the newbies who buy stuff like starter mercs bundle or obsidian season pass because i havent buy anything for these 5 months.

im not the one to “Shill” microtransaction, hell im very against microtransaction but at the current state, its very hard to find other way to slow this slide.

i have reduced my playtime to twice a week because its just not healthy for me to be enraged everytime newbies just quit the game because “muh balance” or “muh pay to win” I probably stop playing DB for good if i found something comparable to DB, younger or better.

i will probably look at some post or crap-posting at some discussion but i cant give any opinion for the gameplay anymore because i lost touch with the game.


(bgyoshi) #2

Reasons why making a shooter is usually a bad investment. You either get the hype train or you don’t. DB has always shot for the one thing that continues making money after the hype train dies: MLG Tournaments

And they never could get Ranked in a spot for it. All hope isn’t lost, they just have to make changes that we’ve been saying for years (mainly, making EVERY mode the same player count) AND ALSO get lucky in the hype department.

OW continues to make money because Blizzard is rich enough to host it’s own high paying MLG tournaments, not because it’s a particularly good or balanced or fair or fun game. It makes people giggle at it’s goofiness (thanks TF2) and has a huge cast of wacky ironic characters (thanks TF2) and 6v6 tournaments (thanks TF2) and Blizzard can pay for all of it. They don’t even need a fan base, they just need people who want to make a lot of money winning tournaments. The rest will follow.

Until SD can shell out half a million in prizes every season, they just have to get lucky.

Even with perfect weapon/ability balance
Perfect gun play
Perfect matchmaking
Perfect mercs
Perfect modes
Perfect code
Community servers
Perfect performance

They won’t get popular as a shooter unless 12 year olds take over (Fortnite/PUBG which will fade eventually) or someone is able to host high-paying tournaments that people can make a living on.

But hopefully they can sustain enough of a revolving door of new players to keep the game running for awhile. Of all the shooters out there, it’s the only one I can stand playing in any capacity right now. The genre is really, really dead on titles as of late.


(B_Montiel) #3

@GatoCommodore said:
my proposition is to buy stuff with real money.

Putting more microtransaction would be like intravenous feeding someone with total proven brain disability. It’s not impossible, a few suddenly wake up, but the most chances are that his brain will remain dead once and for all.

I’ve already said it so many times, but the core root issues are well identified and mostly neglected by SD when we put them on the table. That’s what made some significant old time SD fans already leave during alpha on Nexon.

Just a few :

  • Lack of community servers, and to a bigger extent, lack of modding support. This already made flee most of their old supporters, who perfectly knew that a good SD game balance is achieved when community can put their fingers into it deeply (W:ETpro, ET:QWpro…), and also knew that a competitive scene grown by the community would never truly exist without it (DBN, third or forth trial of building it, more pointless than ever). The massive error here is that both SD and Nexon back then never put a dime into a competitive scene they’d grow by themselves. Massive mistake if you don’t give tools to the community. By the way, you dont need the developers to grow an interesting comp scene (I’m not talking million cash prize tourneys, just a competitive scene where you have at least 15/20 teams per region playing on a regular basis).

  • Shit performance for an UE3 based game. Nothing else to say.

  • Splitting the community with CMM, and in some way ranked. So much developing time wasted. Yes yes, I already hear the “not the same dudes”, but 2016 was literally wasted on tools that would totally split an already poor community number-wise.

  • Strong balancing issues. They’ve been nitpicking for too long now. Fiddling with numbers +/- % stuff never resolved core rooted problems. On a proper 1v1 same skill gunfight duel, unless the weapons used are not appropriate, you should not have Fragger topping this massively. When you take abilities into account, same story. Strong health merc are way favoured in my view. Light mercs should go way faster to compensate their lack of hp. Not enough synergy between classes, even medics.

Content is something they’ve worked on properly, at least.

And one but not least : Dirty Bomb is free to play.

I love to take Chivalry : Medieval Warfare as an example of what should have been done with dirty bomb. In order : Release at a reasonable price, hoping to get a fair audience, improve, patch and balance, finally get a nicely crowded game, release content, add cosmetics, release SDK and tools, let community involve, bring their skins into the market. All this with strong support of the community who took the charge of the competitive side. More than a year after its release, we still had more than 32 teams in tourneys on a regular fashion in Europe.


(henki000) #4

What is trend? Trend is something like a microtransaction of religion. When there is no coherent community, people start creating their own. Eventually they struggle, because their living space is reliant to amount of believers. Trends will unify or fall in oblivion. Trends will keep evolving. If someone wonderful enough start believing and convincing others to pilgrimage, it could save Dirty Bomb. All it takes is one imagery man and drunk followers, that can write well enough. All it takes is pencil and paper. Does SD have what it takes? Yes.

Instead of doing what everyone else is doing and listening what everyone else wants. Start doing your own, start believing what you want. Want something that no one else knew they would be expect. Excpect only victory, even if your foundation is at stake. Make terrible mistakes like crusade in religious wars. Say earth is flat or evolution does not exist. Tell them you are not related to monkeys. People will still play Dirty Bomb, because it’s a religion. It’s a reason to have journey to destination.

Journey of Dirty Bomb has suffered some turbulence. People are afraid if plane can safely land to airport in these weather conditions. What if their hard earned vacation ends to stop-over in middle of nowhere. When volcano Eyjafjallajökull erupted in 2010, air traffic in europe was closed for 6 days. Airports were closed. People were jammed. But locals went to aid them, some of them even took passengers to their own home. That is what Dirty Bomb need. Voluntary work. Enviroment where people can aid how they can. Structure where it’s safe, motivational and valued. Too often I read these forums, only to see people arguing each other for pity reasons. Too often I have seen devs video, where almost expressionless Exedore tells us, it wont happen. People need to be more closer to core of community. For some people community structure looks like this: investors, devs, pts, competetive players and everyone else. You need to work that false presumption, that is driving people away. You need to convince people that you are working for them. Convince that your investors are doing this for people and show what really happens behind the scenes. Playing a devs video, is like playing a mystical tutor in MTG. That card is usually played in opponents turns last phase, just before you start your own turn. They will know what you have, when they would like to know how it works. Your cards should not rely on what others do, plan should be convincing to begin with.

Some proposals:

Make a day, where everyone can join pts. Like a universal scale private test server day, that focus on fixing balance and how it is implemented in guns vs guns and mercs vs mercs level. Eventually merc stack vs merc stack level and deep learning team composition.

Allow mods without too much restrictions. We all know how great mods are in Enemy Territory and played important role in it’s success. Give people directions how to start modding. Nobody except it’s going to be easy.

Do better dev videos. They need to be longer and more informative. Speak out reasons behind the updates. Use more humour, mix some reality channel material. Make people laught and cry. Cast faith to fans.

Organize more competetive events. Once a month is absolutely minium. Advertise Dirty Bomb as a competetive game, where everyone can join and have great time. Gameplay so fast-paced intense and diverse that it will defrost even the toughest nerd.


(n-x) #5

Watching SD developing DB is like watching a kid with ADHS in a room full of blinking lights.

They are just all over the place.

Let’s make a 5vs5 shooter, oh but we run 7vs7 servers.
Let’s make cool gunplay, ohh but I like big abilities. God damn it too much explosives, let’s throw in mercs that counter abilites.
Let’s focus on skill, uhhh I know people like swords and rockets, let’s add cheezy one-hit-kill-abilities.
Let’s put emphasis on movement. Uhhh, I know, I know, Snipers are soooo cool. Doesnt matter that they negate movement in the open.
Counterstrike is popular, let’s copy that. Damn, it doesnt really work for our game and needs too much maintenance, let’s take it out again. Damn again, some people like it. So maybe we should put it back in.

And so on and so on and so on…

There is just no continues line.

If you watch these 2 videos and how they describe their original vision in it:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=zoaJ9akMmLg&t=

https://youtube.com/watch?v=J6zhI47b1v8

You can’t seriously say, that they focussed on those goals.

If they kept their development tight and make a small but in itself coherent game, things would look completely different now. But to achieve that, they would need to take out some content and reverse some decisions they made, which would also cost them some players and not guarantee that old players come back and new ones join.

I guess, their best bet is to totally not care about their current playerbase, try to tie up all those loose ends as good as they can and hope for the hype of 1.0, even if this means losing all their old playerbase.


(B_Montiel) #6

@n-x said:
If you watch these 2 videos and how they describe their original vision in it:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=zoaJ9akMmLg&t=

https://youtube.com/watch?v=J6zhI47b1v8

You can’t seriously say, that they focussed on those goals.

Honestly, when they did those videos, that was pretty much spot on compared to the actual game state back then. But then… Priorities they had / were given diverted… Slightly to say the least.


(GatoCommodore) #7

@B_Montiel man, every solution at this point is just too late.


(Rokon2) #8

Team-based shooters are the trend though. Not as much as Battle Royale, but they’re there. Overwatch and Paladins have proven that. It’s up to the devs to market their game, and do it well. There’s a lot of games that mechanically and functionally play really well, and DB is one of those games. Unreal and Quake are two damn good arena shooters that is not being given the light they deserve, perhaps because they’re in development as well, but it’s marketing that really gets players.

Another problem to address is player retention. The devs are actively working to make their game more accessible to those who want to customize their game experiences a bit more. I think they literally can’t go full-on complete customization like you’d see in TF2, but all things considered, they’re trying.


(Sorotia) #9

No offense but it sounds pretty stupid of people to pay money for a game they don’t like just because other people play it.


(ThunderZsolt) #10

@Rokon2 said:
Team-based shooters are the trend though. Not as much as Battle Royale, but they’re there. Overwatch and Paladins have proven that. It’s up to the devs to market their game, and do it well.

Paladins is going downhill as well though…
According to steam charts, they’ve lost 2/3 of their player base. Sure, there are other platforms as well, but I guess the trend is the same.

They are dumbing down the game (increasing projectile speed, nerfing mobility, and 7 out of the last 10 champions have fully automatic hitscan weapons - there used to be 2 of them), selling skins for overpowered champions instead of balancing them.

Also they are about to “release” the game at 1.0, so they are pumping faster then ever - leading to more and more bugs, to the point that projectiles disappear but go on cooldown, making fights a lottery.

And the matchmaking wasn’t adjusted to the lower player base, so it throws you in a game after 2-3 minutes, even if that will be a very one-sided game (which happens a lot), and there is no refill (even in casual) but the leaver is replaced by a bot (the AI is very dumb, it was created for practice games for new players) which is worse than 5v4 because the bot is feeding.

Honestly I only keep playing because the skins and the voice acting is the best I’ve ever experienced in a game (including TF2)

@Rokon2 said:
There’s a lot of games that mechanically and functionally play really well, and DB is one of those games. Unreal and Quake are two damn good arena shooters that is not being given the light they deserve, perhaps because they’re in development as well, but it’s marketing that really gets players.

UT and Quake has a very high skill ceiling (and DB as well, at least compared to battlefield/CoD/whatever military shooters are at the market) which means you get rekt a lot until you learn the game.
And even then, you need to constantly practice to stay in the best shape. I was plaing Quake Live a lot while I was studying, but nafter 8 hours of work I can barely track a jumping Sparx, hitting a railgun shot on a dude rocket jumping from a jump pad became an impossible task for me.

That being said I do play both QL and Quake Champions sometimes, but if I were a new player, I would prefer a game which I can pick up and do good instantly like in PUBG


(GatoCommodore) #11

@Sorotia said:
No offense but it sounds pretty stupid of people to pay money for a game they don’t like just because other people play it.

well, if you dont like it you dont have to pay
if you like it i suggest you buy something


(Szakalot) #12

Imo there is one main issue with DB that put people off: shitty balance.

  • shuffle in lobby never worked. People come and go, balance is destroyed. Years of no shuffle option in servers. Still no shuffle+restart. Still no autoshuffle after lobby
  • SDgamws and closed beta veterans rolling over everyone else. Balance is destroyed
  • The ‚last x matches performance’ is completely bogus. If its always off, it will stay always off target. It only takes one lvl6 guy who stomped a max lvl6server to come to a normal game and ruin the balance cause the game thinks they are as good as that lvl 100 stomping lvl20s. Vicious circle continues.
  • ‚dynamic’ map design and extremely fragile balance: where you are continuously engaged in firefights. As soon as one frontline drops dead, epic flank follows, collapsing an entire team. A 6v7 is IMMEDIATELY felt in the game and a much bigger disadvantage than in most other shooters. 5v6 or 4v5 are even worse.
    The balancing sweet spot is very narrow: small deviation either way and its a stomp. No comeback mechanics in the map design: C4 takes 50 seconds, which is 2+ waves of defenders: sneaky plants are almost completely pointless. Also no multiple plants avaiable either. etc. etc.

(Sorotia) #13

@GatoCommodore said:

@Sorotia said:
No offense but it sounds pretty stupid of people to pay money for a game they don’t like just because other people play it.

well, if you dont like it you dont have to pay
if you like it i suggest you buy something

I’m saying you said you know people who play pubg who hate it? I’m not getting why people would buy a game they hate just because other people play it.

That is grade a 100% sheeple, I hope you aren’t friends with any sheeple :stuck_out_tongue:


(B_Montiel) #14

@GatoCommodore said:
man, every solution at this point is just too late.

Honestly they rarely complained about their money income with DB. DB seems to be their trainee and apprentice project to check they’re good enough before they can go to bigger customer projects, so money earnings is a small priority.

Either way, its not too late, it just takes them the guts to actually do the necessary massive overhauls it requires. And actually listen to the community. I’ve read the same things for about 4 years active on forums. If you put economic debates asides, the concerns about gameplay and performance are roughly the same. Because the remedies SD have done are way too shallow.

As a side example : server performance has always been questionable. It improved when Nexon was in charge, to the point it was starting to get quite good when SD took this in responsibility. But now its 4 steps backwards. Unbelievable to get almost 110-120 ms pings on a Stockholm server for everyone living in France who don’t have fibre cable (I’m already above 60/70 with it sometimes…).
And SD simply turns these issues down by “please send us a bug report of when/where/what…”. No. Servers are wobbly and this is a real issue for anyone accustomed to proper multiplayer shooters games. Some friends who were deep into cs or even battlefield on tweaked servers noticed those issue before level 5 and gave this as one of the reason they would not play DB further.

Pretty much any reason stated by everyone here could be viable. But the economy, well, to me, this does not sustain a game, it generates profits on something viable by essence. CS:GO, yes, started to raise when the released the market, indeed. But this also came with massive improvements on netcode, balance and content. I don’t think Valve is crazy enough to release an item market on an empty half chewed box.

To be brutally honest, I still play DB because its pretty much the only game in this very spot right now, which is not produced by EA, Blizzard or some similar shit. And I won’t go back to TF2.


(GatoCommodore) #15

@Sorotia said:

@GatoCommodore said:

@Sorotia said:
No offense but it sounds pretty stupid of people to pay money for a game they don’t like just because other people play it.

well, if you dont like it you dont have to pay
if you like it i suggest you buy something

I’m saying you said you know people who play pubg who hate it? I’m not getting why people would buy a game they hate just because other people play it.

That is grade a 100% sheeple, I hope you aren’t friends with any sheeple :stuck_out_tongue:

Well yea, most of my friends arent critical thinkers. Sometimes i shake my head on why they keep buying frivolous things while they still living with very limited budget.

You know there are people that probably spend a fortune buying games in steam and not playing it over 3 hours because “its not trendy anymore”

Still remember the fidget spinner thing back then, all of them bought it and take pictures with it and then…nothing…

i wouldnt be surprised if the apocalypse come tomorrow it would be chaotic because nobody will them what to do.


(ThomaZe) #16

Invisible merc do not belong in a fast FPS game!
2 many mercs classes, will never be balanced.

IMO!


(Mc1412013) #17

we don’t know what sd has in store for db 1.0. for all we know there planning a massive TV/radio advertisement blitz or they could be doing nothing big. we wont know any thing till its release cuz the devs refuse to tell us anything other than stuff of low value or repetitive info.


(Meerkats) #18

My current relationship with DB is more akin to a bad case of Stockholm syndrome. While I don’t enjoy DB as much anymore, I enjoy everything else less so I’ve pretty much invested my all into this game’s decaying corpse so I can whinge about past glory days. Maybe Midair will be good, but right now, it looks like DB might be the last stop on the last train on a defunct route. This isn’t SD’s fault. Competitive FPS, as an entirety, has stagnated. I’m not saying there aren’t any good FPS games; Siege is very good and Ironsight might have a chance to make something of itself, it’s just there hasn’t been a shooter in years that has really caught my attention. When DB finally kicks the bucket, I think I’ll hang my coat on FPS as a whole.

I actually have a fairly in depth post I’ve been working on delineating possible improvements for some of the most controversial mercs ( e.g. Turtle, Guardian; Hunter should just be removed ), but like so many other posts I start and don’t finish… I’ve just lost interest. It’s not like SD cares anyway, right? Who would even read it? It seems like the forum population has halved from average 6-8 online to 2-3, mirroring significant reductions in twitch viewership and player count ( via Steamcharts ).

I don’t want to repeat what’s been constantly repeated in the past, so I’ll say this:

SD is working hard to improve the game. Communication with players has markedly increased, but not improved. An important distinction. I feel the devs have been avoiding difficult questions about DB’s future, instead opting to only field softballs, playing a short term game with intent to generate hype toward the next patch to distract from the deeper rot afflicting DB. While it’s nice SD is more visible, their actual presence is still negligible. In fact, the one time SD did seem to make an effort to tackle a difficult question, the response was so inept it quickly became a meme ( Shoe’s infamous “not happening” incident ), so perhaps the issue is more along the lines of SD’s CM’s being unequipped to express SD’s intentions properly. This explanation, at least to me, makes some sense as it’s hard to rationalize this kind of… error otherwise ( outside of the Trump administration, heyo ).

So what are the “hard questions?” What’s SD’s endgame? What is DB going to be? To me, it seems there is a fundamental schism dividing DB’s playerbase into two camps and SD is trying hard to accommodate both. The problem is these two groups have such different expectations and different definitions of fun that they are entirely irreconcilable. On one hand you have hardcore vets who, lured in by SD’s early promises of a truly competitive, skill-based shooter, have high expectations and specific ideals. Individuals who define fun through struggle and accomplishment. On the other hand, there are forever scrubs who think tryharding is a disease and just want to play a modern F2P CoD. The type of scrub who gets upset when an actually good player dunks them, momentarily interrupting their entitled expectations of an endless endorphin stream delivered via low effort, instant gratification cheese because to them, hiding in a corner as a cloaked Phantom and stabbing a Proxy in the back is the epitome of skill.

True story: The other day I was in a match and said, “hard melee damage should be reduced” to which a Kirtana player instructed me to, “kill myself immediately” in response.

And here’s the thing. Blizzard likely struggles with the same issues with OW, but I believe their playerbase is represented by a much more balanced spread of players, from super casual to hardcore and everything inbetween; if this distribution where to be plotted, the resulting graph might be nearly flat. This gives Blizzard wiggle room even while they try to maintain a middle ground as they will never truly alienate enough players.

On the other hand, DB’s population, plotted, likely resembles a valley with players clustered into the two extremes with hardly anybody between. At this current state, and even into the foreseeable future, no matter how SD tracks, they will always upset one group, and when you only have two groups of players, well, it’s not a good situation to be in.

So SD should pick a side and effectively communicate that decision with the express intent to triage. If SD decides to side with casuals, DB will likely experience a significant exodus of experienced players, but at least SD will then have the freedom to pursue the game they now want to build and DB will likely be healthier for it. General “toxicity” will likely decrease as SD can more easily manage their new unified community because the truth is the most significant cause behind DB’s “toxicity” is SD themselves and their inability to satisfy anybody with their shitty patches.

Again, all these other “important announcements” like melee weapon skins? Just noise. This notion that you can manage to thread a middle line is clearly not realistic and is just upsetting the playerbase.

The alternative is to fork DB into two separate games, one catered toward good players who want to play a good game, and one catered toward garbos who are just looking for a spruced up F2P CoD.


(Mr.Cuddlesworth) #19

@GatoCommodore said:

currently DB is not that popular because its just not Trendy enough.

I told SD we need swimsuit Rhino skins but they don’t listen… :frowning:


(Teflon Love) #20

@Meerkats said:
The alternative is to fork DB into two separate games, one catered toward good players who want to play a good game, and one catered toward garbos who are just looking for a spruced up F2P CoD.

The last hope I have for DB are community servers. A setup with no recons, ff on and mininum level something could bring back the fun to me and let the “garbos” have their’s somewhere else.

That way, SD could carter for both parties.