Then there are those of us that jumped purposefully and tracked our targets before pulling the trigger. The notion that it was always some random connect the shots combat is absolutely false.[/quote]
Agreed. Jumping in combat was a valid tactic for many. The ones that just jumped randomly were never a threat to begin with.
Those are two completely different thing. It’s not a case of the change having to be balanced around a single weapon.
[quote=“Amerika;146989”]
You still haven’t done what I asked. Provide the logic path of how the game is now better and how Vassili’s playstyle and value is better with this change.[/quote]
It was never a question of bettering the game for Vassili, it was a case of if you do X (jump around) then your aim is affected by Y (RNG). It’s an overall balance change, not specific. My jumping combat mercs playstyle and value certainly took a hit to the nuts. It’s a whole lot more than “barely affected”.
[quote=“Amerika;146989”]
And identify how he was “OP” before (like, give situations). So far you’ve talked about Rhino having a laser, comparing it to aimbots/wallhacks, “eye for an eye” balancing where “well my proxy was affected so your Vassili should be too” and other rather ridiculous things that has nothing to do with balancing Vassili himself and making him fun and versatile and all the things needed for a faster paced FPS game (not 3km shots with bullet drop in BF4). All of that makes it very hard to take you seriously on this subject.[/quote]
The whole Rhino thing was completely fascetious. Rhino laser would be so overpowered as to be ridiculous. I was fairly certain that I’d conveyed that adequately in my post.
Like it or not you will have to adapt no matter what they do. We all do every time there’s a change in the game. Every time there’s a new merc released there’s a massive upheaval to the meta (<— and I absolutely hate having to use that word, but it applies in this case). I do not see a lack of Vassili’s on my teams. As a matter of fact I get multiples on my team every round. It’s pretty damned annoying most of the time. If the change is reverted then people will have to adapt to that reversion.
Vas is not OP, he’s just in the same place as everyone else.[/quote]
Yes, it is a case of balancing around weapons. That’s exactly how you produce good balance. If jump shooting wasn’t what was keeping Vassili competitive or at least in the same ballpark as competitive I’d not be so against the change. I don’t main him and he annoys me just like he annoys you and most people. But I can set aside my annoyance and understand what keeps a merc viable. Just because slightly more RNG was added to one mechanic doesn’t mean that same mechanic needs to be added to something that has never had it in the first place and not only nuke a whole playstyle but any kind of viability the class had.
Don’t try to act as if I didn’t understand the Rhino laser thing. You were attempting to establish that Rhino having a laser beam was ridiculous just like Vassili jumping when the two aren’t even comparable and it has nothing to do with balancing Vassili. It was a really bad analogy/example at best.
You’ve also spoken about how accuracy being slightly more affected when jumping in a firefight means that Vassili, who has never had this accuracy penalty before, deserves it simply because Proxy changed (and obviously other mercs but you mentioned Proxy specifically IIRC). That’s eye for an eye balancing. Not balancing that makes sense given the class performance up to this point, the archetype, the weapons involved and the pace of the game.
You completely avoided how the game gets better by doing exactly what I asked you not to do. Do you even have a rational logic path as to why the game is better now that isn’t just, “I hate vassili/snipers”? That’s why I keep asking you to outline it…I want to give you the chance before I simply ignore your input on the subject. I hate doing that but I’m pretty close here.
Vas is not OP, he’s just in the same place as everyone else.
I don’t even know what this means. This sounds like you tried to write something meaningful as an end statement but didn’t really say anything. It also doesn’t answer my very direct question of how he was OP and why bolt-actions needed change and how it helps the game overall and the merc.
@FeralFlame Heated debate is still valid as long as people don’t go off the rails…and I’ve already put out a general warning about that. Good things can come out of heated talks.
Then there are those of us that jumped purposefully and tracked our targets before pulling the trigger. The notion that it was always some random connect the shots combat is absolutely false.[/quote]
I never said it was always random. You do know that every time you jumped, outside of a scoped sniper rifle, you had your spread increased dramatically right? This was the case before the recent patch and it was slightly increased (and added to bolt-actions) with the patch.
Jumping, landing and shooting was not affected. CQC jumping and shooting wasn’t affected much due to distance to target lowering any random elements. Strafing and shooting was not affected. Jumping to increase your TTK for evasion was not changed. The only thing changed was your consistency to hit while jumping at further than CQC distances making it less likely that a person jumping as part of their gamestyle while firing will win out.
Do you disagree with this? Is it “absolutely false”? If so, detail how.
[quote=“Amerika;147374”]Jumping, landing and shooting was not affected. CQC jumping and shooting wasn’t affected much due to distance to target lowering any random elements. Strafing and shooting was not affected. Jumping to increase your TTK for evasion was not changed. The only thing changed was your consistency to hit while jumping at further than CQC distances making it less likely that a person jumping as part of their gamestyle while firing will win out.
Do you disagree with this? Is it “absolutely false”? If so, detail how.[/quote]
Of course I don’t disagree with that. I disagree with the part where you want the game physics to apply to everyone but Vasilli. If you want to make up for a perceived loss of playstyle, figure out some other way to do it without trashing newtonian laws for one merc.
I guess you don’t play Vassili often. Very… very… very rarely does that happen. It’s not even RNG. It’s like a unicorn that a full time sniper might see once in a blue moon. You can’t accurately no-scope people at close and definitely not mid range and it be a usable and dependable tactic. It simply doesn’t work unless you’re incredibly lucky.
[quote=“Anaconda;147294”][quote=“FeralFlame;147288”][quote=“Jostabeere;147287”][quote=“Anaconda;147248”]Move slower
[/quote]
You still keeping up with this totally false BS?
[/quote]
Sadly Anaconda is, Im all for shutting down this thread.[/quote]
Shutting down the thread because I’m making reasonable and valid observations and arguments from my experiences post-patch, while the people throwing out personal insults are not punished in any way? Why is it acceptable for someone to curse me out on this forum just because he hasn’t experienced the same thing as I have in the game?
If anyone should be penalized, it’s posters like Jostabeere who use profanity and direct personal insults because someone disagrees with their feelings on the game. I have been nothing but courteous in describing my experiences in the game based on hours of direct gameplay.
Yet you are insulting me by calling me a “troll”, yet the guy USING PROFANITY against me is allowed to roam free?
[/quote]
First of all, calling you a troll is not a profanity.
Second. You’re not making it as “personal opinion” or “disagreeing” You block everyones other opinion out, ignoring everyone and you put your claims, which aren’t true out as facts and not opinions.
Amerika said you like 5 times mobility WASN’T changed. You ignore it and keep saying mobility was changed and present it as valig. That’s a troll-behavior. You disagree with facts and ignore everyone. You’re basically saying the earth is flat. You’re a troll, sorry.
I will ignore you from now on and not gonna feed you anymore, since it’s useless and you will ignore any facts on this topic anyways.
But I ask you nicely to remove the flag by yourself before I ask a moderator to do so since I did not abuse any rule set by Nexon. And your personal rules don’t count here (I already learned it)
Calling someone a troll is not forbidden here and as seen in the rules there’s even an official marking for trolls (which should be done on people out here imo):
http://puu.sh/n2WyQ/ba8c2ca046.png
[spoiler]Sorry for derailing it even further. I’m still for closing this thread, since it’s just going in circles.[/spoiler]
[quote=“MTLMortis;147603”]1. Yes, Vasilli jump shotting with no penalty was always ridiculous. Whether on purpose or an oversight hasn’t even been said.
2. Jump rng changes are a global change. You balance weapons vs weapons. There’s a reason that bolt actions do so much damage in FPS’s. That is your balance, you can no-scope insta-gib people at close-mid range with that thing. You do not need to jump-shoot for that. You can sit at long range and kill people while ignoring the incoming dmg that is affected by dropoff that your bullets do not. It had nothing to do with Proxy and everything to do with a global versus specific change.
[quote=“Amerika;147374”]Jumping, landing and shooting was not affected. CQC jumping and shooting wasn’t affected much due to distance to target lowering any random elements. Strafing and shooting was not affected. Jumping to increase your TTK for evasion was not changed. The only thing changed was your consistency to hit while jumping at further than CQC distances making it less likely that a person jumping as part of their gamestyle while firing will win out.
Do you disagree with this? Is it “absolutely false”? If so, detail how.[/quote]
Of course I don’t disagree with that. I disagree with the part where you want the game physics to apply to everyone but Vasilli. If you want to make up for a perceived loss of playstyle, figure out some other way to do it without trashing newtonian laws for one merc.[/quote]
I want the game to balance around mercs and their viability and around allowing dynamic non-homogenized playstyles. You aren’t even considering actual balance or playstyles or the flow of the game. You can’t even formulate a good reason why, in regards to merc balance, the game needs to be the way you want, how it’s better beyond how you’re playstyle is improved and how it’s better for bolt-action users in general. You’ve consistently dodged this over and over. Also, this is a game that is patterned after an arena shooter system that does not give 1 crap about proper physics. So I don’t even know why you’d try to use that as a reason for change when not completely changing the entire rest of the game.
You also can’t consistently, “no scope insta-gib” people consistently. It’s entirely luck based as the bullet comes out in a random position which is why it’s only a panic situation where it happens and most good players won’t even go for it. This pretty much concludes how little knoweldge you have of how bolt-actions work.
Also, this isn’t just about Vassili. It’s about any merc now or in the future that will have access to bolt-action rifles. The PDP/GR are fine with current mechanics. But bolt-actions are not due to the games pace and flow and other limitations placed on the merc/mercs.
I guess I’m done here. I’ve presented my case and clearly stated my logic and I do not find myself persuaded even a little by counter-arguments.
So we’re going to, as I pointed out a few posts back, just agree to disagree which is fine. I do not see the same problems or in the same light as you do, obviously.
cheers,
o7
@ Saying i killed a Rhino 7 times is totally useless as the skill level between you and the guy was probably not the same at all nor the mastering of the merc was if the Rhino is stupid enough to let you attack at too long range for him or to let you strafe and shot with a cover he probably isnt on the same skill level that you are.
I can’t find it but a guy made a screen shot or a video showing the spread of the shotgun pellet while jumping and while not jumping and there is definitly a huge difference unless you stick your shotgun in the mouth of your ennemy half of the pellet are most likely to not touch him and the one shot is barely believable unless you are really on him.
But saying every Proxy can’t kill every Rhino without jumping around isn’t?
Well isnt the point of a forum to argue ?
[/quote]
The point of the forums is for the community to get together. Sometimes you talk, sometimes you laugh, sometimes you debate and sometimes you argue. And sometimes it’s a combination of all of those things. As long as people are attempting to be constructive it’s all good. Not everyone is going to agree with such a crazy variety of people with different concerns and views. But we can at least try to be constructive!
In other words, the forum is to a game what a congress is to a country. We’re supposed to come together and discuss and compromise ideas so that they may pass into the game via feedback.
The problem is instead of debate and compromise, we devolve into mudslinging into straw manning (just like real politicians! =D). Plus much like the poor, middle, and high class, we have the new, advanced, and veteran players, and they all have different views and different biases.
We also, have to understand in as non outraged fashion as possible, that feedback is a very very small influence into making any changes to the game. The developers have a much better understanding of the effects of changes on the gameplay due to their access to massive amounts of actual in-game data. Our feedback is subjective, while theirs is wholly objective.
We also, have to understand in as non outraged fashion as possible, that feedback is a very very small influence into making any changes to the game. The developers have a much better understanding of the effects of changes on the gameplay due to their access to massive amounts of actual in-game data. Our feedback is subjective, while theirs is wholly objective.[/quote]
Honestly I have to disagree with that, their data tends to give them only half of the story.
For example, the SMGs
This is from an update back in August last year, this graph doesn’t mention the average use of the weapon, or mention the cards or the merc these weapons are used with.
Don’t you think that’s critical info?
What about the M4 and Timik, another good example, Timik was getting buffed but at that point in time the only merc who had was Skyhammer. While Skyhammer and Fragger both had the M4. Don’t you think that would contribute to differences in stats?
The graphs don’t tell them the full story, they should visiting and interacting with the forums more often rather than leave us in the dark.
[quote=“Jostabeere;147616”]
First of all, calling you a troll is not a profanity. [/quote]
Well, what does BS stand for, hmm?
You still keeping up with this totally false BS?
Yup, nothing profane there, I guess that’s how your family taught you to talk to others when you were a kid.
Stop lying, you know you resorted to personal insults at me for no reason other than disagreeing with me.
Grow up.