The Biggest Rage Thread So Far...


(PixelTwitch) #1

Welcome to what will likely be my biggest post on these forums so far…
I am expecting a rather big backlash from both the community and the developers on this one. As you will likely know if you have seen me around on the forums, I do try and keep things positive and approach as much of my feedback as possible with detailed reasoning. However, that mainly just causes massive arguments within the community from people that disagree and agree. I feel for as much effort as I have personally put in, I have unfortunately failed in my attempts to spark interesting debates or even solve many of the problems I see going forward. Having tried to remain active both in the forums and in game my frustration levels have basically raised to boiling point and now I need to unload some of that negative energy. So please, put your hands together for the amazing wall of text!

Skill based shooter… A phrase that everyone likes to throw around the place, yet it seems that most people have a pretty skewed definition of what that actually means and what it should entail. By the definition most people seem to use, Splash Damage could have made a game where two players spawn in a simple cube with a Quake Live style Lightning Gun, strafe jumping and grenades… Would we finally be happy then? Please don’t get me wrong, I am all for natural skill being a rather big aspect of the game but when you attempt to make the whole game based on that very limited skill set you end up with what we have now. Still not skill based enough? lets crank that speed up 50% more and reduce that recoil! If the design doc had the following.“The premium tap left and right while tracking the enemies head simulator” you would get laughed at. Yet it seems from the current design and what the community are asking for, that is exactly what people want Dirty Bomb to be. The skill aspect alone just seems dumb to me… There are literally dozens of individual skills required for most first person shooters. Normally having just any one or two of these skills will give you a place to compete. Not here though… Your options are gimped to the point where if you cannot track like a beast, you may as well go home. Where is the timing, positioning, flick aim, prediction aim, and ability usage? These are not things you can simply “add” to the game. The only way way these skills will manifest themselves is when/if the overpowering tracking and left to right spam is nerfed. The problem is, the only viable ways to do this would be via slowing the overall game speed, increasing the time to kill or increasing/decreasing the recoil. Ironically, doing any of what I just mentioned will get most of the current player base up in arms. I have said this time and time again but here I go again… Fighting vs evenly matched opponents at lower levels is hard and frustrating. Fighting vs evenly matched opponents at higher skills maybe not as hard but it quickly turns frustrating and highly luck based. Now it would be easy to accuse my frustrations being born from my own lack of skill. Hopefully, some people here that I have played with can assure the rest that I am completely capable of L/R spam while tracking heads. My concern here is with accessibility, fun factor, frustration factor, spectator watch ability and long term viability. Watching people fight this way looks dumb and at higher skill levels you feel at the mercy of random deviation. It is not fun, its frustrating and frustration is a sure fire way to cause people to get angry and to move onto the next game. In an attempt to raise a skill ceiling you have reduced the games depth and it is one of your biggest obstacles to creating a rich experience to the end user. Before moving on its important to note that this is also made so much worse by the games general performance. Sure performance often does effect player ability however in Dirty Bomb the person with the highest/smoothest frame rate is at a massive advantage.

This is the part where I would tell you to not get me started on the maps but as that is not an option, so, here I go. I have tried and tried to remain positive and even produced a video showing why I think that Victoria shows signs of decent map design. However signs is where I have to draw the line. What makes this all the more baffling is the fact that many of the major flaws are beyond obvious to even untrained eyes. No consideration seems to have been taken when it comes to angles that overlook objectives and distances between spawns, objectives and chokes compared to respawn times. I can excuse the lack of wall jump spots, not having areas that work with certain Merc abilities and the crappy collision in sections. However, the limited routes, overlooked routes and lack of consideration to a Mercs optimal range is all on the map designers. While I respect that many aspects of the games design are rooted in old school sensibilities, moving forward this needs to be addressed. So far from the look of Dome and Battersea I am not seeing any improvement. Dome itself feels like it was designed for a game like Battlefield with the number of windows you need to be watching. Battersea on the other hand has a great concept that up until now has been very poorly executed. London has the opportunity to be a great setting for the maps and I cannot wait for next year if this game does well and we start seeing Tokyo, New York or South American based maps. After all its hard to imagine that if the game does well you would be limiting yourself to a single city… I would personally recommend starting work on the TDM, Execution and even Domination maps until more has been introduced/finalised when it comes to gameplay systems. You also have VIPS here that are more then capable of looking at 2D map designs and giving feedback before you even waste your time blocking them out. Just because something is mapped perfectly does not make it good/fun. Many of the best aspects of some of the most popular maps ever produced are down to their flaws that are sometimes deliberate and often not. Echo and play testing offer a very limited amount of feedback. Its perception, emotion and peoples imperfections that really effect how a map plays. I would even go as far to say I believe that if everyone was a robot that played perfectly every single time. The current map pool would likely be pretty good. Unfortunately we are but humans and the current map pool by no means has tolerance for our limitations.

Anyway, what are maps without gamemodes? well… just maps I suppose. I personally find it crazy that half of a gamemode is considered a gamemode at all. Now I cannot say I have much experience with ET or ETQW so please feel free to correct me if what I say next is incorrect. It is my belief that in previous Splash Damage games the maps were designed for the Objective style and then converted to work with the Stopwatch style. In Dirty Bomb however, this seems to have been flipped around. Just because something works one way around does not mean it does the other way around and I believe you likely have the stats to back that up. The fundamental difference I see here is that Objective maps in the past were designed to be completed 50% of the time. Stopwatch maps on the other hand are designed to be completed the vast majority of the time. This small difference completely throws off the balance. The systems you have implemented to differentiate the modes also seem to do the opposite of what you expected. The more random spawns increase the likely hood of the Attackers getting a clear run at an objective. The longer spawns increase the likely hood of the Defenders not having enough time to even attempt to re-take an objective. The overtime mechanic literally gives the Attackers more of an opportunity to finish and we have already established a second attacker advantage in stopwatch due to changes in play when the time limit comes close to ending, yet in objective mode you allow the time limit to start coming to an end constantly pushing the attackers forward and giving the defenders false confidence. From watching back some of the old matches that Potty did the casting for last year, I honestly think that Objective mode should be played on maps like the original London Bridge and the full length Train Yard. The longer the map the less impact the psychological kick up the ass has. The mode would also feel less repetitive, be easier to balance and able to embrace larger player numbers. I honestly do appreciate that you are working with limited resources but without nailing this now, you are basically wasting more of them resources on a fundamentally broken aspect of the game then it would take to fix/improve/remove it. Execution and TDM are both modes that I have yet to get my hands on. Since joining the game I have heard lots of good things about the TDM maps and Execution mode in general. My biggest fear with Execution is that its just going to die in public play unless you add some form of objective for each round. I have already made a couple big posts about my ideas of Execution so please feel free to dig them up and have a read. What I think you should be looking at more the being completely original is at least having something the majority of players can understand. Throw in a new game mode or throw in a playlist game mode that has multiple maps that span different game modes so you can eventually start seeing what the public want to be playing. I totally get that developing game modes is one of the most complex aspects of development but the truth is right now you lack a good pub friendly gamemode for reasons I will rant about later on in this post. Most people will agree as fun as TDM could be, the Merc based system really does throw a spanner in the works when it comes to predictability and the potential spam that would likely happen.

They say stress is a killer. Dirty Bomb is a very stressful game to play. Whilst some people would say that constant action is a good thing. I would say its only a good thing over short periods of time or when the stakes are low. Dirty Bomb however is anything but them two aspects. Its kind of a catch 22 really… The gameplay is fast and that means that lots of deaths are bound to happen. This means respawn times have to be quite short and the gamemodes mean that your playing for a fair amount of time. This is one of the causes of major frustration the players feel. The respawns are longer than on other games of similar speed and the result is that even a 1:1 kill death ratio still feels pretty horrible. This is impacted even more by long periods of time spent running from spawn back to the action. There is a distinct lack of pacing and escalation. You are either doing nothing or doing everything at any given time. You need to be fully alert at all times to make sure your ready for that switch as once it ramps up, its normally only for a few seconds before you or your enemy is dead. Whilst these are just some examples of how it effects the player directly, indirectly the effect on the game from a spectators PoV and as a video producer or streamers PoV is equally as dull. Crazy to think that something so fast and action orientated can be so boring at the same time. Like anything in life we soon become accustomed to our situation. The match needs more properly defined phases, better transitions between fights and deeper contrast between the emotional states. Hate to say it really… Again, I honestly feel this comes down to the games speed, time to kill and lack of depth. Hopefully in future you will be able to find a gamemode that works well with these traits if you choose to not lower the games speed.

-=TO BE CONTINUED=-
Let the hate commence >.<


(tokamak) #2

Hear hear!


(stealth6) #3

On the cube argument nobody is saying that. We’re saying please fix the core gameplay before adding additional layers… Get the cube with railguns, then start adding additional abilities, etc. They had a nice thing going with W:ET & ET:QW - DB was advertised as being in the same line, yet SD finds it necessary to throw away the good core gameplay from those games for some reason. (Well the reason has probably been mentioned here and there, but I’m just too stubborn to care. How are you going to find a black swan if you just keep following the flock?)

Then you go into maps right after that, which is another point I’m pretty sure we all agree on. How can positioning be important when the map is basically a train track?

About the design of the maps towards gamemodes, I can’t comment on this. I know timing is important and lots of time goes into the planning of a comp map before anything is made, but I don’t know anything about the difference between objective vs stopwatch.

On this last point I disagree, just because the game is fast doesn’t mean you need fast respawns too imo. This just makes the game chaotic and adds to the stressful experience your talking about. Again here they had a good concept in previous games, but decided to bin it. shrugs shoulders

If you find that you’re having trouble spreading your time on both the forums & game, then I’m sure SD would prefer you only play the game and let ECHO do the rest. It can’t read forum posts anyway so they’re mostly wasted time.


(Smooth) #4

This post does highlight many of what we feel are the biggest design concerns with the game.

Some points I’d like to personally pick out as things we’re intending to address are:

[ul]
[li]Dirty Bomb’s over-reliance on evasion-spam and tracking-aim – it’s nice to have but too prevalent[/li][li]The game being generally very stressful to play for prolonged periods[/li][li]Objective vs Stopwatch map balance and the systems behind them[/li][/ul]

We’ll be working towards solving these as we go forward. I can’t really give a time-frame on these as they’re not exactly quantifiable and we’re unlikely to be sharing exact details until we’re more happy with the results :slight_smile:


(BomBaKlaK) #5

[QUOTE=Smooth;510610]This post does highlight many of what we feel are the biggest design concerns with the game.

Some points I’d like to personally pick out as things we’re intending to address are:

[ul]
[li]Dirty Bomb’s over-reliance on evasion-spam and tracking-aim – it’s nice to have but too prevalent
[/li][li]The game being generally very stressful to play for prolonged periods
[/li][li]Objective vs Stopwatch map balance and the systems behind them
[/li][/ul]

We’ll be working towards solving these as we go forward. I can’t really give a time-frame on these as they’re not exactly quantifiable and we’re unlikely to be sharing exact details until we’re more happy with the results :)[/QUOTE]

What about maps ? Objective design ?
Cause clearly I can’t play this maps anymore … totally bored


(Kl3ppy) #6

I dont get the decision why the main game mode is stopwatch. Sure, it’s the #1 mode for competition and you want a competition fps. But is f2p the right approach? You make money from buyable ingame stuff, but does the majority of comp players care about them? imo you should have gone with objective mode as the main game mode because this will be the most played game mode (pubwise). The normal pub player will be your Cash cow. The normal pub player cares about fancy looking guns etc. But is stopwatch interesting for a normal pub player? I dont think so. If I have 60mins time to play, why should I play 1 map as defender and attacker instead of playing lets say 3 maps? I get bored very quickly from stopwatch when not playing a comp match. As a pub player I want to play different maps and play different mercs.
And here we have the next issue. I can choose only out of 3 mercs during a game? Why? There is almost no tactic involved in pub games.
Somehow I have the feeling you were sitting in a capsule while desinging the game. You had an idea (comp fps) which is a real good idea, but somehow you got lost. For me it looks like you forgot to look at current and former games, what they did well and what not. You wanted an objective based fps, why dont have a closer look at RTCW/ET/ETQW? You want financial success, so have a look what CoD/BF does well and what not. I’m not saying copy the games, but take the good stuff and find some inspiration from them. The maps for example should follow the RTCW/ET/ETQW sytle/design. The mercs system can work, but I find it highly annoying that when I want to play the classic medic (defi + medpack) I have to take Sawbonez loadout. You kicked out the classes, but with classes it could work much better. For example, all current medics abilities/guns are put together in the class medic. Now you can pick 2 abilities + primary and secondary weapon out of this pool. For example, you can take the look of sparks, the gun of phoenix, the defi and the self revive. But the Brink approach isnt good because then everybody would use almost the same body type + same guns.

And yes, I dont like the game, currently there is nothing ingame which keeps my attention longer than 1 map per month. I play 20 mins and think, ok, lets do something else, I’m done here.


(Violator) #7

I would like to see more alternatives to hitscan weapons - objective-based Quake would actually be a fun thing to try :). We currently have Nader as the only non-hitscan weapon (barring grenades). As an ET/ETQW player but crap tracker (certainly in DB) I’m all for more variety. Stress is certainly a factor, I think the fact that I seem to kill and die randomly a lot of the time is the main reason.


(warbie) #8

Well put.

As things stand the issues aren’t because the game is too fast or too focussed on head tracking. Note, the people that want these things aren’t happy either. There’s a raft of things that previous games had that are missing from DB. The sad thing is I suspect some devs at SD are going to read the OP and nod their heads in sage agreement. Is the game too fast? - it is for the maps, they’re too narrow, cluttered, warren-like, with too many places to hide. They have been since day one. I’m often frustrated playing DB - getting shot from all angles, no chance to retort, no clear front line for a team to set up and defend from. Look to the maps that worked in RTCW and ET - far simpler, more predictable. Defenders defend here, attackers attack from there. Positioning played a much greater role, the maps promoted teams staying together which resulted in the class synergy and the teamplay that made these games special. The things you don’t get in CS, CoD, BF etc etc. Individual tracking skills weren’t the decider of everything as teams were clashing into each other, not individuals or tiny groups. Think back over previous games you’ve played in DB - how often have you been set up, waiting, covering a position on the map, with team mates to the right and left of you doing the same thing? A field ops moving around, dishing out ammo, medics poised to pick you up. Ready for the enemy charge. And on the flip side, how many times have you been rushing forward, your team all around you, trying to create gaps in and push through bottlenecks? This was the key thing - the wow moment - that other games didn’t have (and still don’t) that stood out when the Beach demo was released back in the day.

It would be better to drop attempts at making DB similar to ET - reduce the speed, acceleration, increase hip firing spread, faster ttk etc - and do something from scratch than to borrow elements from ET and ignore the key things that made it work in the first place, which is where we are now.


(Smooth) #9

[QUOTE=BomBaKlaK;510616]What about maps ? Objective design ?
Cause clearly I can’t play this maps anymore … totally bored[/QUOTE]

We know, Bomba, you post about it in practically every thread :stuck_out_tongue:

Unfortunately maps are the element that takes longest to change and we’re not going to go and put in a tonne of work with them (again) until we’re happier with the current gameplay and how it works within a blockout map.

We realise that it’s frustrating right now, but we need to be focussing on the long-term rather than short.


(Violator) #10

The other frustration is teamwork. Only a few players (such as Pixel) are up for trying to communicate to the team and the other team is usually full of players who either want to TDM or aren’t sure what to do ending up in steamrolls. When I’m in the ‘lone wolf’ team its very frustrating to end up in endless 1v2s or 1v3s as the rest of my team are god-knows-where.


(INF3RN0) #11

Meh… really at this point I feel discouraged from putting in the extra effort anymore. I’ve put in a considerable amount of time into consistently testing and giving logical unselfish feedback with just the simple motivation of reinforcing quality, but it sort of feels like I’ve wasted a lot of time on that front (never cared much about the status/merch). My intention was to use my experience and reasoning skills to help push potential in the direction that the devs wanted and make constructive suggestions on how to expand/improve those ideas. I’m easy to please in the sense that I appreciate a quality game in any form.

At a certain point the more intimate communication between the VIPs/alpha testers and devs pretty much ceased to exist, which was sometime after the infamous rage thread closing era; wouldn’t blame the devs if they got tired of it all either. Most people involved have always had very specific agendas and not the most friendly attitudes of discussion or openness to unfamiliarity, which doesn’t exactly allow for much productivity on here. Plus the massive amount of overly emotional ego gibberish I’ve read and experienced in game over the last year… insert disappointed parent cliche.

The last 6+ months have just felt like repetitive content to me. Even with all of the tweaks and fixes, I still enjoy the game about as much as I did a year ago and even though there’s been changes in mechanics and what not, the overall depth of the game play feels mostly unaltered. Now with this whole notion of transparency, being very vague to note, I still feel like I have no idea on what is actually happening or going to happen, and when I test a patch there isn’t really anything beyond balance tweak comments. At the end of the day I don’t lose much and I’m in no position to make demands, so I’ll just start playing for the sake of playing and hope the retention doesn’t run dry.


#12

If SD or anyone in general invest X dollars into the “wrong” things, its usually very good to give up, and cut your losses.

To refuse cutting your losses, may in fact create huge losses, since the wrong thing, can take all your time and energy to fight for, and might not even work.

So Im saying, just cut the bad maps, and start over, even if you spent salaries for X people for X years on the maps.

To realise it was wrong, but still not cutting losses when you still can, is by experience a road that leads to nothing but suffering.

Example:
OCZ (SSD hardware manufacturer) CEO didnt want to cut his losses and sell his company for XX% lower than he wanted.
In the end, his cash-flow truly stopped (even though OCZ had made tricks to keep more cash coming in, while it cost them a lot), and he had to sell it for 10-100 times less than he didnt want before.

TL;DR
Pride can kill you, or your company.
Accept mistakes, oherwise trying to fix an unfixable mistake can crush you (SD).

Best wishes.
/JB


(spookify) #13

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;510606] Sure performance often does effect player ability however in Dirty Bomb the person with the highest/smoothest frame rate is at a massive advantage.
e >.<[/QUOTE]

This is crazy true and the last 2 weeks have set it in stone for me… I have been getting massive FPS loss and Dropped Frames… When this happens it feels like my mouse also takes a crap. I have also had huge ping spikes! Playing on Euro I should have steady 120ish ping… I look at the score board a lot and I am 120 to 160 all over the bored all the time… I have even seen spikes to 200+?

So its been a combination of things over the past 2 weeks that have completely turned me off of this game…


(Kl3ppy) #14

[QUOTE=JBRAA;510640]If SD or anyone in general invest X dollars into the “wrong” things, its usually very good to give up, and cut your losses.
[/QUOTE]

This is true, but it is not working every time. Usually there is a point of no return, especially in development. You put a serious amount of money in something, the outcome is a loss of lets say 1m $. Now you have to make the decsion, wether to stop it or keep on going. When you stop now, you lost 1m $, when you go on, you spend another 300.000 $ but you will reach a point, where you will have an income of lets say 500.000$. So in total you spend 1,3m $ but you have an income of 300.000$, in total you lost 800.000$. Additional on the less loss, you gained some knowledge and in the best case some assets which you can reuse in other project (maps).

Your example isnt the best one because its about selling a company and a greedy company owner. Sometimes it is better to keep on developing even tho you are making a loss. Then it is important to find out if you will generate later some positive cashflow in order to cut your loss a bit. And a loss of 800.000$ instead of 1m $ is better plus you might get assets you can reuse in other projects.
SD doesnt have an option because tbh they just have 1 map which is ok. They need to go on, spend more money on the maps and make them better. Plus SD has the advantage that many players are voicing their concerns/ideas. SD can use this knowledge to improve the maps. Also the advantage is, that SD is publishing the game (I know nexon does but SD has the power over design etc) and SD can release updates on existing maps even after launch. And there is no pressure like a deadline for release, SD can take the time to improve the maps. Dome for example is a move in the right direction, now SD just have to apply the style to current maps and the maps will improve. But as posted in the maps thread, this takes some time, but it is still faster than building new maps.


(Seanza) #15

I don’t know if it’s coincidence, but the whole slowing down and lack of distinguishable updates thing started when Nexon slapped their logo on the game. “We won’t lose our creative control” was the affirmation from Splash Damage, and whilst that might be the case, nobody mentioned that it might mean delays and slow progress in order to achieve that creative control.

It’s a damn shame that, in my opinion, this game was more fun to play when it was just a small, frequent playerbase. The game, in earlier stages, felt so polished that the end felt near. Map updates (I bloody miss the chapel of Whitechapel…) simplified things for the new players, tactical skill wasn’t rewarded and still isn’t really rewarded just now.

There’s nothing attractive in putting time and effort into a game that seems to be going nowhere. It would be cool to see our feedback actually meaning something. Seeing our community ideas being implemented in further iterations of the game. New maps take too much time in such a small team? You’ve got a community of talented mappers waiting for mod tools to drop for the game. Raste, Chris, Wezel, to name a few… We are your community, use us!


(prophett) #16

[QUOTE=Seanza;510644]
Seeing our community ideas being implemented in further iterations of the game. New maps take too much time in such a small team? You’ve got a community of talented mappers waiting for mod tools to drop for the game. Raste, Chris, Wezel, to name a few… We are your community, use us![/QUOTE]

Seriously, make this happen SD!!

Let the community map for you so that you can concentrate on other things. All we would need is some design criteria such as some values for long jump, double jump, etc… (most of which was already covered in another thread).


#17

I rather play 1 really good map that show off how fun the game is. Like beach for RTCW.

For Halo 2, their demo map was basicly the only map that was played in Halo 2 and 3.

So 1 great map, is much better than haveing maps that makes people rage quit / uninstall, since it doesnt work / doesnt promote teamwork / isnt fun / etc.


(Kl3ppy) #18

Oh stop it. Now I think back at February/March/April 2013, back then I thought, Incredible how good the game is considering its an alpha. It was fun to play, there was a solid playerbase, played every. But then we got some changes which changed the whole game :frowning:


#19

[QUOTE=prophett;510645]Seriously, make this happen SD!!

Let the community map for you so that you can concentrate on other things. All we would need is some design criteria such as some values for long jump, double jump, etc… (most of which was already covered in another thread).[/QUOTE]

I remember seriously thinking about making maps, since I truly thought I could do better than DB’s maps, after trying DB for a few months.

And I havent even touched a map editor. I feel I could draw a map design in Photoshop or similar.

Would be fun to make my own map. I’ve learned a lot from playing hundreds of maps, and playing FPSes for over 15 years.

I dont have the technical experience of mapping though.

I’d love to have access to a DB server where I could change all the settings I wanted, hehe, and of course add custom maps.


(Kl3ppy) #20

[QUOTE=JBRAA;510646]I rather play 1 really good map that show off how fun the game is. Like beach for RTCW.

For Halo 2, their demo map was basicly the only map that was played in Halo 2 and 3.

So 1 great map, is much better than haveing maps that makes people rage quit / uninstall, since it doesnt work / doesnt promote teamwork / isnt fun / etc.[/QUOTE]

Sure, it is better to have one good map than having more maps which are bad. But in DB there is imo no good map, just one map which is ok. On top of that, the gameplay on a map is always the same, so it will get even more repeditive. I would rather play 5 blockout maps on which changes can be done in lets say 2-3 weeks based on our feedback.