State of Play: Modes, Movement, Mercs, & More

(spookify) #81

You got me :cool: and yes I have done and said those thing about this game but there are still many area’s of this game like the one example above where I have no control on the out come it feels like.

I think the point about BF3 I was trying to Make was that the spread was very manageable compared to xT. In BF3 it felt like I could manage the Spread and Recoil and know where every single one of my bullets would go.

Few things in the video:
#1) Advanced Moves - Prone for Cover!! (0:09)
#2) Nade for Cover! (0.23)
#3) Snap aim Last guy tracking (0:53)

//youtu.be/1OxwfYMMXiE

Video 2
Few things in the video:
#1) Recoil Compensation Kill (0:23 - 0:25) At the end of the kill look how hard I am pulling down.
#2) Recoil Compensation Kill (0:38 - 0:40) At the end of the kill look how hard I am pulling down.
#3) Advanced Moves - Prone for Cover!! (4:46)

//youtu.be/nayUeydKETk

Video 3
Few things in the video:
#1) Advanced Moves - Prone to avoid MINE!! (1:54 - 1:57)
#2) Advanced Moves - AFK = Prone Kill ET style!! (2:24 - 2:33)
#3) Nade for Cover!

//youtu.be/f3rrTxhgtrY

Video 4
SNIPER
Just a different feel
[video]http://www.twitch.tv/spookify4/c/1437082[/video]

(Anti) #82

Crouch already reduces AoE damage in XT, we need to add a tool tip for that I imagine :stroggtapir:

(RasteRayzeR) #83

There is one already :wink:

(Anti) #84

My work here is done :cool:

(Bangtastic) #85

Ok yes BF3’s spread and gunplay was and is still great (imo better than in bf4). You always knew when to pull your mouse to left, or to right (AEK).
But most ppl tend to play M16 or AEK since they are the best allrounder, fairly simple to control, and felt the best. KH2002 was good burst weapon (you could fire it almost like auto weapon, dont know whether it was intended) Other weapons where only usable in close quarter (famas, f2000) or were just not as good as an m16 on mid or long range.

No matter how great BF3 system was it lacked balance Assault weapons are the reference, where engineers m4 and a 91, are a lil bit less on par with an m16. The rest was just not as good. Other classes were not that efficient weapon wise.

But all mentioned weapons are most enjoyable! In BF3 you couldnt move and aim, you had to stand still to land accurate shots, in xT you are very mobile and can even bunny jump around and hit ppl.

Played yesterday with a friend (f4ilx), and he thought that jumping + (accurate) shooting is too much. (wink to jump sniper :S)

Movement in this games BF3 and BO2 are terrible. It feels either like weighing 150 kg or being chainsmoker.

In XT the strafe speed is so high, sometimes its so fast that you are aiming behind or the spread of bullets wont hit the enemy, but spread is already really little. In BF3 spread was a lot higher from hipfire, in xT hipfire and ADS is basically the same. Ppl in BF3 just didnt strafe so fast, so you could land lot easier your shots, even with more recoil and spread.

So how I see the dilemma: current accuracy of weapons (spread) cant make up for the speed you and your targets are moving. When ppl move straight towards you, every bullet lands -> TTK is rly short, as soon as ppl start to dance your shots go everywhere, even if you are on enemy -> ttk is doubled or even more. This inconsistency makes every weapon feel weak in situation 2.

Sidenote: Why on earth is the recoil of sidearms three or four times higher compared to carabines, assault rifles, smgs??? Its fine on a revolver or sth alike but not on modern pistols. One shot of a pistol should have the same impact as an assault rifle. Higher recoil for primary weapons, and less for sidearms, not the other way around.

(spookify) #86

[QUOTE=Tast1c;496786]Ok yes BF3’s spread and gunplay was and is still great (imo better than in bf4). You always knew when to pull your mouse to left, or to right (AEK).
But most ppl tend to play M16 or AEK since they are the best allrounder, fairly simple to control, and felt the best. KH2002 was good burst weapon (you could fire it almost like auto weapon, dont know whether it was intended) Other weapons where only usable in close quarter (famas, f2000) or were just not as good as an m16 on mid or long range.

No matter how great BF3 system was it lacked balance Assault weapons are the reference, where engineers m4 and a 91, are a lil bit less on par with an m16. The rest was just not as good. Other classes were not that efficient weapon wise.

But all mentioned weapons are most enjoyable! In BF3 you couldnt move and aim, you had to stand still to land accurate shots, in xT you are very mobile and can even bunny jump around and hit ppl.

Played yesterday with a friend (f4ilx), and he thought that jumping + (accurate) shooting is too much. (wink to jump sniper :S)

Movement in this games BF3 and BO2 are terrible. It feels either like weighing 150 kg or being chainsmoker.

In XT the strafe speed is so high, sometimes its so fast that you are aiming behind or the spread of bullets wont hit the enemy, but spread is already really little. In BF3 spread was a lot higher from hipfire, in xT hipfire and ADS is basically the same. Ppl in BF3 just didnt strafe so fast, so you could land lot easier your shots, even with more recoil and spread.

So how I see the dilemma: current accuracy of weapons (spread) cant make up for the speed you and your targets are moving. When ppl move straight towards you, every bullet lands -> TTK is rly short, as soon as ppl start to dance your shots go everywhere, even if you are on enemy -> ttk is doubled or even more. This inconsistency makes every weapon feel weak in situation 2.

Sidenote: Why on earth is the recoil of sidearms three or four times higher compared to carabines, assault rifles, smgs??? Its fine on a revolver or sth alike but not on modern pistols. One shot of a pistol should have the same impact as an assault rifle. Higher recoil for primary weapons, and less for sidearms, not the other way around.[/QUOTE]

Good Post its going to be a hard balance for SD to come up with… Which ever direction or combination of direction they do xT will be a unique game.

My Side Note is that I agree with you Strafe aka Sprint Speed… People are flashes of light and quantum partials zipping all over the place right now and then you add a wall jump that can teleport someone acrossed your screen its not a super friendly tracking game right now. But again on a Euro server with 120 ping its 30x worse (the Effect) then with a 20 ping…

(prophett) #87

Good post with some good points (sidearm recoil)

[QUOTE=Tast1c;496786]
Played yesterday with a friend (f4ilx), and he thought that jumping + (accurate) shooting is too much.[/QUOTE]

I have always thought this as well.

(Bloodbite) #88

I haven’t been keeping up as much as I should… but… one thing I’d like to see starting to be implemented now which is fairly necassry in my view by the end… a try-before-you buy obstacle course.

Like a car game, you’d want to do a test run before buying a 'thing that involves movement’s so that it really is what you thought it would be. That would also help now with testing I think. Both tweaking and wrapping people’s heads around what they really want out of maps with the movement they will come to know and love.

(Anti) #89

[QUOTE=Tast1c;496786]
In XT the strafe speed is so high, sometimes its so fast that you are aiming behind or the spread of bullets wont hit the enemy, but spread is already really little[/QUOTE]

Of all the tests we’ve done in alpha/closed beta, and there are a few…

[ul]
[li]Increased hit box size
[/li][li]Reduced spread
[/li][li]Changed spread behavior
[/li][li]Reduced recoil
[/li][li]Fixed fall-off bugs
[/li][li]Changed movement speed
[/li][li]Increased damage
[/li][li]Fixed application order of damage in network packets
[/li][/ul]

…the biggest increase we’ve ever seen in player accuracy, from a single tweak, was when we reduced strafe speed. It’s had the most impact of anything we’ve done. We even tried smaller spread at one point and yet accuracy didn’t increase with that change for the majority of players.

I think we’d still like to try reducing strafe speed slightly but in this case we’ve listened to you folk, who say it’s something you really want.

I have to say I find it a little odd that spamming left and right keys to ‘dodge’ is considered a skill, as I’ve never seen it executed in a way that I could call more skillful than how the average button masher would use it, it’s simply about being as erratic as possible.

(Glottis-3D) #90

there are several patterns to dodge.
“rlrlrlrl” is only one of them

you can go more one side, and make unexpected quick steps in other direction.
and also you can also use crouch during dodge.

lol, i even go forward-backward dodge, if under crossfire from a side (so is easier to shoot me in the face, than from a side)

i am more conserned, that with spamming left-right something is going wrong with hitbox-position. because i had several times the situation, where i and my opponent were in a thin coridor and were both spamming AD, and none of us hit a shot for several seconds (at least it felt like seconds =) )

(RasteRayzeR) #91

[QUOTE=Anti;496847]
I have to say I find it a little odd that spamming left and right keys to ‘dodge’ is considered a skill, as I’ve never seen it executed in a way that I could call more skillful than how the average button masher would use it, it’s simply about being as erratic as possible.[/QUOTE]

I still find myself doing the large rotating mouse movement combined with jump + strafe when I want to dodge quickly … I played too much Quake 3 :frowning:

We could try in a patch the reduced strafe speed, give feedback, iterate

(chenapan) #92

Hi
Thanks Anti for the great explanation
My guess about why we are all insisting about this strafing things is probably because most of us have an ET history.
point is, if it is true that it doesnt need skill to spamm left and right keys… it need a lot of skill to combine this basic operation with aiming… the said combination result in a hand coordination exercice wich is just really rewarding when done right, especially considering that your opponent is strafing too.
plus when all the shooting mechanics will be decided once and for all. we will be able to really fine tune this experience of strafe-tracking-firing and it is at that point that proper “skill” will emerge and that i think you will notice a increase in accuraccy for some players.
I remember my first step in ET where i was completely lost with this mechanic of strafe-tracking-firing, and when ii start to “click” in me and the great feeling it was when finnaly you get it. ah and the first guy who teach me the basics when he told me “it s like a “dance” you ll see”
and really when you get there, there is a feeling of harmony wich is simply great

beside al those game with the “stay-still-to-shoot” are just boring for anyone who played ET and experienced this coordination

i dont know if i am clear but as a game designer for xt/db you need to understand that feeling to definitely get rid of your doubts, because if you really think it is a bad idea as you explain it , you must be frustrated to see us ask for this.

(Erkin31) #93

[QUOTE=Anti;496847]
I have to say I find it a little odd that spamming left and right keys to ‘dodge’ is considered a skill, as I’ve never seen it executed in a way that I could call more skillful than how the average button masher would use it, it’s simply about being as erratic as possible.[/QUOTE]

This is still more skilled (and fun) than being static during gunfights.
What I like with the straff dodge isn’t the pattern used, but the necessity to constantly move while I shoot.
And a good speed give me better sensations.

In ET/ETQW, gunfights between two players are intenses. We need to dance with our adversary. This is the best representation of the word “gunfight”.
In a lot of FPS now, with slow movements and low ttk, you see your adversary, you only shoot, he’s dead. No gunfights, no duels :’(

(Mustang) #94

For me I’m okay with the current strafe speed, it feels like there is something quintessential important about it being at a decently fast speed which appeals to the control and play/gamestyle that we’re egging for, and has been sorely lacking in “modern” shooters. It certainly doesn’t feel any harder to track players than old school arena shooters, which to my recollection were even faster paced.

So the question remains, if tracking isn’t an issue then why are some people complaining about lack of hit registry? From looking at my own stats my accuracy seems to be in the 25-30% range and I rarely experience the “tracking but not hitting” syndrome that others report on a regular basis.

All this said, as I recall the major complaint with regards strafing was it’s responsiveness (i.e. acceleration) rather than actual maximum velocity, so if it’s wanted to test a slight reduction to max. velocity, but without reducing acceleration then lets test it. My only concern would be if this nerfs air control, which is already at it’s absolute minimum to be of any use.

EDIT: Thought of another concern, when not in a firefight not being able to move in a strafe/diagonal direction at full sprint speed (i.e. being able to simulate head movement to survey my surrounds whilst still moving in a forward direction) is my biggest bugbear with modern shooters, would hate to see this “feature” creep in to this game, in-fact the more I think about it the more I’d rather you just reduce the overall sprint speed than mess about with strafe, but as mentioned above, the game isn’t exactly “too fast” as it is anyway, so perhaps a better solution?

(Anti) #95

[QUOTE=krokodealer;496849]there are several patterns to dodge.
“rlrlrlrl” is only one of them

you can go more one side, and make unexpected quick steps in other direction.
and also you can also use crouch during dodge.

lol, i even go forward-backward dodge, if under crossfire from a side (so is easier to shoot me in the face, than from a side)

i am more conserned, that with spamming left-right something is going wrong with hitbox-position. because i had several times the situation, where i and my opponent were in a thin coridor and were both spamming AD, and none of us hit a shot for several seconds (at least it felt like seconds =) )[/QUOTE]

I understand that, it’s similar in other slower games where you’ll strafe one way but break the strafe occasionally. My point is more that erratic rlrlllrlrlrlr type motions, spammed randomly, are just as effective as more consciously made dodge moves. Not only that but there is no real ‘tell’ about where the opponent is aiming, so it’s not like you’re seeing their play and reacting to it, it’s not the same skill as dodging slow moving projectiles like grenades or rockets in Q3, UT or Tribes.

The reason I struggle to see the skill in this is that there is no real curve, there are just states, not dodging, dodging. The most basic dodging (rlrlrl spam) is normally as effective as any other.

(Anti) #96

Just to be clear, I don’t think people should be static in fights. My primary FPS over the years has been Tribes, dodging projectiles and moving is most definitely a thing there. My point was more that excessive erratic strafing hurts aiming and accuracy hard and yet the skill curve for it as a mechanic is very short, so I don’t see it as particularly valuable.

That said, we know you folks do value it, which is why we still have strafe speed as the same as forwards run speed.

(INF3RN0) #97

I’ve always been fairly sure that people simply have more trouble tracking than they did in previous games, which is somewhat expected considering how the weapons work and apparently mouse issues with low sensitivities in u3. Anti did you guys ever actually reduce the max spread by a lot though, or was it just the time it took to reach max spread?

(Anti) #98

[QUOTE=Mustang;496857]
All this said, as I recall the major complaint with regards strafing was it’s responsiveness (i.e. acceleration) rather than actual maximum velocity, so if it’s wanted to test a slight reduction to max. velocity, but without reducing acceleration then lets test it. My only concern would be if this nerfs air control, which is already at it’s absolute minimum to be of any use.[/QUOTE]

My gut feeling is that it’d actually feel better if the speed was high but the acceleration was lower. This would make rlrlrlrl stuff less effective but would make full left or right strafes with the occasional break, what I see as more skilled strafing, actually more effective.

(Mustang) #99

Eww…

I don’t know at what point you would call it spam, but I’d rather we just penalised the spammers (e.g. with increased spread whilst spamming) rather than penalise everyone.

(Erkin31) #100

[QUOTE=Anti;496859]Just to be clear, I don’t think people should be static in fights. My primary FPS over the years has been Tribes, dodging projectiles and moving is most definitely a thing there. My point was more that excessive erratic strafing hurts aiming and accuracy hard and yet the skill curve for it as a mechanic is very short, so I don’t see it as particularly valuable.

That said, we know you folks do value it, which is why we still have strafe speed as the same as forwards run speed.[/QUOTE]

Tribes is an unique genre. Slow projectiles, big maps. But yes, it’s more skilled than strafing during a gunfight.
But for a game like Xt with, fast projectiles, big rate of fire and “small” maps. There are not many choices of mecanics that give no-static gunfights + speed + tracking.