Starcraft II

(Humate) #101

haha yes i get that… i dont mean to call players cheap for doing these things, I meant experientially it feels that way when doing them.

(tokamak) #102

If it feels that way then you’re outgrowing your league.

(INF3RN0) #103

Toka whats your league?

(INF3RN0) #104

First step is to focus on stopping all cheese tactics, then your automatically plat. I placed into and survived in diamond league (with less than 50 practice games), back when I started playing, just by stopping cheese, macroing, and building counter/mixed armies with no prior starcraft xp (just a friend in masters briefly explained to me the basics because I wanted to do my own thing). Cheese and special builds all have counters if you can recognize them. I never used cheese on ladder unless it was a sensible counter to their cheese; all-in vs all-in; nor did I use pre-made/timed builds. A pro starcrafter will beat you in ways you would never expect possible or a noob will cheese you and you will find it cheap, but it’s purely player fault. Pro starcraft streams will blow your mind if you haven’t watched them already, but you really gotta be focused on playing for fun (not wins) in such a super-competitive game lol (reason why I swapped to team games after a while, because they are much more relaxing).

(tokamak) #105

I’m in silver now. But in this season weeks I’ve been silver - gold- silver - platinum (yes in one jump) - gold - silver. Battle.net has an extremely low confidence rating to my place on the ladder.

I cheese a lot, but it’s not all in, it’s meant to give the opponent a disadvantage in the macro race that then ensues. I mean, you can either go for a big economic build from the get go, or you can cripple someone at the start and abuse the advantage from there. Most cheese builds lose when they don’t kill the opponent outright, mine only starts then.

(Humate) #106

I’ve watched a lot of pro matches, so when I first started I thought it was macro/micro and the occasional cheese on ladder. Every placement match was a cheese game, and that took me by surprise but I quickly learnt its about scouting/stopping the cheese first and foremost and that usually equates into a win. So my build is pretty safe, 1gaterobo which transitions into pretty much anything.

As for being the players fault, you dont need to explain this - I know. All the “cheap” stuff, ive learnt how to deal with without people telling me or looking up stuff. If theres enough game knowledge there, its just basic logic. For me however theres a nicer feeling to defending a cheese than to come up with one. Experientially,- its more satisfying for me because I know as I move up the leagues, players cannot rely on these tactics. There might be refined versions of these tactics but for the most part its - micro/macro/map awareness/solid mechanics and thats what I want to focus on.

TLDR: Theres only something wrong with cheesy play, if a player is using it to compensate for lack of skill in other areas.

(INF3RN0) #107

[QUOTE=tokamak;390066]
I cheese a lot, but it’s not all in, it’s meant to give the opponent a disadvantage in the macro race that then ensues. I mean, you can either go for a big economic build from the get go, or you can cripple someone at the start and abuse the advantage from there. Most cheese builds lose when they don’t kill the opponent outright, mine only starts then.[/QUOTE]

Cheesing will rarely allow for recovery unless your opponent is 1/2 as good as you, and you have to be extremely lucky to actually do enough damage for what it’s worth. Cheesing is entirely dependent on your micro combat skill and your opponents scouting/build otherwise it’s a game of chance. I think what your referring to is harassment, which if an opponent is caught off-guard can ruin their eco, force over trooping, slow expansions, or just cut off scouting. It is typical for most players to harass in every plat+ game (gold are all all-in cheesers), but it’s not always necessary. I always let my opponents commit to a harass and use it to come out on top in terms of economy. The problem with harass at lower level is that the lack of apm usually ends up hurting you more than being worthwhile. I played with like 80 apm on average, so I never over committed to anything I couldn’t handle. A friend of mine has been stuck in plat league for ages, mostly because once he starts over-committing to harassment he is unable to keep up his economy. I found it much easier to have a good defense and scout out my opponent while slowly expanding across the maps until I had a good engagement, after which I would finish them off.

Some simple tips I was told that really paid off:

  1. Never stop making workers
  2. Always spend your resources (1k in surplus=fail)
  3. Always scout your opponent
  4. Expand every 7minutes if allowed

It’s a lot better to just get good at playing the game in general first, before you try to do a bunch of crazy complicated things imo. At least that is what coughadhe*cough get’s trolled for lol.

(INF3RN0) #108

My friend will GOSU you for supa cheap LOL! Nahhh, but I would suggest you use a 3gate opening and try to follow the basic tips I was told. You should be able to hold off just about anything and only have to worry about adapting to your opponent’s play (ex expand if they aren’t cheesing/timing attack).

(Humate) #109

Im sure your friend could do pretty much anything, I started playing at xmas lol.
Yes Ive experimented with a few variations. Defensive 4gate + robo, 3gate expand, 3gate double robo and forge fast expand(which i rarely do). None of these builds ive actually looked up, i just test stuff out and see the pros and cons of each.

I like scouting a lot, playing defensive and adapting. I like harrassing with minimal cheap units, and try to deal damage without taking damage.Non committal aggression is generally how I play.

As for your tips I generally do 1 and 3. Number 4 ill try tonight. :slight_smile:

(tokamak) #110

Yeah great advice for beginners, but if you’re playing since the release that simply gets boring. Winning or losing on minute details and rarely because you outsmarted someone. I seek thrills, I want creativity, I want to find things out myself and in that way be sure nobody has seen it before. I’m a random player and my aim is to make the game as crazy as possible. Why? Because the craziness always works in my advantage, I’m in that mindset already and my opponents need to adjust. Suddenly they realise that a standard approach will get them ****ed if their plans are undercut.

I’m not calling it harass, I call it cheese, legit cheese. Cheese isn’t just flipping coins, it’s about dealing sufficient damage to get a head start on the macro game. As a random player you’re not playing with 3 match-ups in your head, you have NINE, in a handful of these matchups cheese is incredibly strong. TvZ and ZvP being the main ones where I get consistent wins. And these aren’t wins that happen at the start of the game, most of them are long macro oriented battles in which I have an edge from the start. I rather lose them because I overcommitted on the macro than overcommiting on the initial cheese.

(INF3RN0) #111

You can get away with a lot more in silver league than is remotely possible higher up. Creativity takes more precedence when there’s an overall lack of logic in the lower leagues, but it doesn’t mean they are necessarily viable. I started out making nifty strats, but as my tutor pointed out they only work against the handicapped lol. I will say though that team game placement matches are amazingly fun… only against silvers can I go straight into getting a 200 cap of carriers with a mother ship xD!

(Humate) #112

//youtu.be/SlvBTC9S1VY

This is what happened vs silver player with your 7 minute rule.

(INF3RN0) #113

[QUOTE=Humate;390160]
This is what happened vs silver player with your 7 minute rule.[/QUOTE]

:tongue: resources is gud yah! Most people tend to accidentally slow themselves down because they don’t expand as fast as they should or they over expand their drone count.

Oh and toka, you big fan of WhiteRa’s Special Tactics??? That’s pro SC2 creativity hah.

(acQu) #114

[QUOTE=tokamak;390004]Haha trust me, there’s no such thing as a cheap tactic in Starcraft. Everything is allowed. I always block the zerg ramp with two barracks before he gets to do anything. It’s fun because nobody does that so they have to improvise a counter on the spot. Most of them fail but the few creative ones wriggle themselves out of my puzzle.

There are only safe and risky tactics.[/QUOTE]

Hm i am thinking about that, it already screwed me in one custom game, where i saw it the first time, but with the difference, that the guy build bunkers, not barracks :wink: For that reason there are also fake depots at the bottom of the ramp, so that you cannot block in a zerg that easily. However with the ladder maps they are not that far already :wink: I am happy that they at least fixed close ground shattered.

But to come back to your barracks mega cheese tactics :wink: Because it really is allin actually. Do you build the barracks then on top of the ramp ? The guy who did that to me with bunkers built them on the ground, and yes, this is the way how a lamer player wins against a better one :stuck_out_tongue: Not to say that i am roxor, but bad players win that way against me ;).

My (improvised) solution to the bunker guy was (it was on shattered by the way), to take my scouting drone (because i always drone scout), and build a hidden exe, while i try to bbust the bunkers. Probably a better solution would be to take 2 gas straight away and go mutas. But however, when done with bunkers, i think that strat is totally viable, because it changes the whole dynamic of the tvz. The same is with the protoss putting canons down the ramp. The problem with terran is, even when you scout the bunkers down the ramp, you must be lucky to prevent the building scv from building. I took 4 drones for that, but you do not have enough surface area, because the bunkers entirely block the ramp.

All in all, when done with bunkers, i think it is really viable for the terran (no cheese) and changes alot of the ongoing game dynamic, but … it should not be allowed in the first place :wink: Because it is imba :wink: Zerg need to expand at least after 21, all other stuff is not viable. When done with barracks, it is not. You could have money with gasless build for commandcenter, but when your build fails, you can not use the barracks anymore. So you can only go mech afterwards in my opinion

How did the guy solve your two rax by the way ? I would probably put 2 spines up, since it is really aggressive. I would also try to build a proxy hatch with roaches, but that would be very risky, since i would need to decide if i build units in your base, or in mine. Because you could simply overrun me, when you see my roaches in your base, conclude that i must not have much units at home. I normally only do proxy hatch against forge expanding protoss, i have more than 90% winrate with that.

(acQu) #115

[QUOTE=tokamak;390004]Haha trust me, there’s no such thing as a cheap tactic in Starcraft. Everything is allowed. I always block the zerg ramp with two barracks before he gets to do anything. It’s fun because nobody does that so they have to improvise a counter on the spot. Most of them fail but the few creative ones wriggle themselves out of my puzzle.

There are only safe and risky tactics.[/QUOTE]

Hm i am thinking about that, it already screwed me in one custom game, where i saw it the first time, but with the difference, that the guy build bunkers, not barracks. For that reason there are also fake depots at the bottom of the ramp, so that you cannot block in a zerg that easily. However with the ladder maps they are not that far already. I am happy that they at least fixed close ground shattered.

But to come back to your barracks mega cheese tactics :wink: Because it really is allin actually. Do you build the barracks then on top of the ramp ? The guy who did that to me with bunkers built them on the ground, and yes, this is the way how a lamer player wins against a better one :stuck_out_tongue: Not to say that i am roxor, but bad players win that way against me, occasionally.

My (improvised) solution to the bunker guy was (it was on shattered by the way), to take my scouting drone (because i always drone scout), and build a hidden exe, while i try to bbust the bunkers. Probably a better solution would be to take 2 gas straight away and go mutas. But however, when done with bunkers, i think that strat is totally viable, because it changes the whole dynamic of the tvz. The same is with the protoss putting canons down the ramp, or 3 pylon ramp blocking me. The problem with terran is, even when you scout the bunkers down the ramp, you must be lucky to prevent the building scv from building. I took 4 drones for that, but you do not have enough surface area, because the bunkers entirely block the ramp. The same for Protoss 3 Pylon block. With a simple canon you can still prevent it.

All in all, when done with bunkers, i think it is really viable for the terran (no cheese) and changes alot of the ongoing game dynamic, but … it should not be allowed in the first place :wink: Because it is imba :wink: Zerg need to expand at least after ~21, all other stuff is not viable. When done with barracks, it is not. You could have money with gasless build for commandcenter, but when your build fails, you can not use the barracks anymore. So you can only go mech afterwards in my opinion

How did the guy solve your two rax by the way ? I would probably put 2 spines up, since it is really aggressive. I would also try to build a proxy hatch with roaches, but that would be very risky, since i would need to decide if i build units in your base, or in mine. Because you could simply overrun me, when you see my roaches in your base, conclude that i must not have much units at home. I normally only do proxy hatch against forge expanding protoss, i have more than 90% winrate with that.

(acQu) #116

[QUOTE=tokamak;390004]Haha trust me, there’s no such thing as a cheap tactic in Starcraft. Everything is allowed. I always block the zerg ramp with two barracks before he gets to do anything. It’s fun because nobody does that so they have to improvise a counter on the spot. Most of them fail but the few creative ones wriggle themselves out of my puzzle.

There are only safe and risky tactics.[/QUOTE]

Hm i am thinking about that, it already screwed me in one custom game, where i saw it the first time, but with the difference, that the guy build bunkers, not barracks. For that reason there are also fake depots at the bottom of the ramp, so that you cannot block in a zerg that easily. However with the ladder maps they are not that far already. I am happy that they at least fixed close ground shattered.

But to come back to your barracks mega cheese tactics :wink: Because it really is allin actually. Do you build the barracks then on top of the ramp ? The guy who did that to me with bunkers built them on the ground, and yes, this is the way how a lamer player wins against a better one :stuck_out_tongue: Not to say that i am roxor, but bad players win that way against me, occasionally.

My (improvised) solution to the bunker guy was (it was on shattered by the way), to take my scouting drone (because i always drone scout), and build a hidden exe, while i try to bbust the bunkers. Probably a better solution would be to take 2 gas straight away and go mutas. But however, when done with bunkers, i think that strat is totally viable, because it changes the whole dynamic of the tvz. The same is with the protoss putting canons down the ramp, or 3 pylon ramp blocking me. The problem with terran is, even when you scout the bunkers down the ramp, you must be lucky to prevent the building scv from building. I took 4 drones for that, but you do not have enough surface area, because the bunkers entirely block the ramp. The same for Protoss 3 Pylon block. With a simple canon you can still prevent it.

All in all, when done with bunkers, i think it is really viable for the terran (no cheese) and changes alot of the ongoing game dynamic, but … it should not be allowed in the first place :wink: Because it is imba :wink: Zerg need to expand at least after ~21, all other stuff is not viable. When done with barracks, it is not. You could have money with gasless build for commandcenter, but when your build fails, you can not use the barracks anymore. So you can only go mech afterwards in my opinion

How did the guy solve your two rax by the way ? I would probably put 2 spines up, since it is really aggressive. I would also try to build a proxy hatch with roaches, but that would be very risky, since i would need to decide if i build units in your base, or in mine. Because you could simply overrun me, when you see my roaches in your base, conclude that i must not have much units at home. I normally only do proxy hatch against forge expanding protoss, i have more than 90% winrate with that.

(tokamak) #117

Get your head out of your arse. I’m not a silver league player. I’m here because I experiment. That’s why the ladder exists, to quickly try out new builds and new ways of confusing the enemy. It’s not difficult to at least get platinum if you stick to one plan. And the tactics are viable, grandmasters like TLO pull weird stuff off all the time.

You can chose to be a predictable player but then you have to rely on perfect builds and perfect timings. Great for when you attach value to your league standings, if you find that important then by all means repeat the same moves every game. It’s easy to train yourself into doing that, taking a build order from the internet and practising it into perfection takes no intellect, just the ability to memorise execution orders. There’s no challenge in that so I take the second option of being a chaotic player, putting the opponent on the back-foot by making them respond and hopefully overcompensate towards you. That’s where the real chess happens and that’s where you learn to develop the most.

Oh and toka, you big fan of WhiteRa’s Special Tactics??? That’s pro SC2 creativity hah.

Meh it’s okay, it’s more gimmicks than tactics. True useful creativity comes from TLO and Combatex.

How did the guy solve your two rax by the way ? I would probably put 2 spines up, since it is really aggressive. I would also try to build a proxy hatch with roaches, but that would be very risky, since i would need to decide if i build units in your base, or in mine. Because you could simply overrun me, when you see my roaches in your base, conclude that i must not have much units at home. I normally only do proxy hatch against forge expanding protoss, i have more than 90% winrate with that.

Two crawlers is indeed enough, tech fast to lair and go for the nydus worm. When the terran has his production facilities split amongst the opposites of the map then you’re only fighting half a force. A big part of the success lies in the fact that the nydusworm lies out of the comfort zone of most players.

Hm i am thinking about that, it already screwed me in one custom game, where i saw it the first time, but with the difference, that the guy build bunkers, not barracks. For that reason there are also fake depots at the bottom of the ramp, so that you cannot block in a zerg that easily. However with the ladder maps they are not that far already. I am happy that they at least fixed close ground shattered.

Bunkers arrive way later than barracks though. Most of the time you have a second hatchery growing by then. Always have the second overlord on top of that hatchery so you can send two zerglings to deal with any bunkers.

(acQu) #118

Hm, i went 15 Hatch, 15 Pool, 17 Gas. By the time he put his two bunkers down was right when my hatch was half way done. He placed the 2 bunkers down the ramp, on shattered. I had also ovi over my hatch (do this always, because i hate when my hatch just pops and there is a nice little surprise sitting beside (in form of a bunker…)).

So i saw this and immediately reacted, but still had no chance. That is the sad part about it, you just do not have any chance at all. It is a stupid build order loss, a little luck based on side of terra, because his scvs sometimes can be killed, depending on which side of the bunker they are currently building.

Only problem is, i hate to go 14 gas 14 pool, sucks imo. Or 14 gas, 17 hatch something like that, dont like it as well. I am just waiting until they fix shattered with a fake supply depot down there, so he at least need to build the bunkers on top of the ramp. There i can at least do something when i scout it.

IMBA …

(tokamak) #119

I think it would be worth to just let your hatch finish and get crawlers installed then.

Another trick that works is simply let your scouting drone do a proxy hatch inside his base. He’s usually too absorbed with his own cheese to notice yours.

(acQu) #120

Yeah, with proxy hatch i have good win ratio. Catz style :wink: I have this from him actually, it is the perfect anti cheese against protoss. Against Terra not always, since marines are so good.

Crawlers are an option, but if the terran is good, the scrawler wont go up.

Nydus is also stupid, 1 Base Z is soooo bad …