Splash Damage - You better not do this!

(DarkangelUK) #121

[QUOTE=tokamak;244779]
Agreed, the guns don’t offer an advantage by themselves. It’s having a wider range in guns that is the advantage. Having more choices means that you are able to pick the weapon that fits the situation the best, or even the one that fits your personal taste more often.[/quote]

I think at this point, situations are being broken down to such specifics that’s it’s unrealistic to think you can be switching gun to fit every single little change in the battle.

Compare it to mouse sensitivity. Currently you’re used to being able to set your sensitivity very precisely, but imagine you only had a few settings. Would having 3 settings (the 3 archetypes, low, medium, high)have a higher or lower chance to meet the sensitivity you require than having 4 or 5 settings? I’m sure you would agree that the higher the amount of settings the better, even if the initial 3 settings are very diverse.

I wouldn’t say this is a good example as an on-the-fly sensitivity change is way too far removed from gun fire situation. If I need to run to a command post every time I wanted to change sensitivity on my mouse for the situation (which could change by the time I’m done) then it starts to become a hindrance.

Then, taking this particular case aside, do you think that external events like promotions should be able to influence the gameplay (not just the cosmetics) itself?

Bizarrely enough I had this thought already, but more regards to weapon and ability unlocks, and it comes back to time spent and effort vs reward. They’ve said the more you play, the more abilities you unlock… and in their words, you don’t get a bigger advantage, just a bigger choice to focus the way you want to play the game. With that respect, I would assume you’re against and not keen on progressive unlocks? Obviously this is different as this stuff is available to everyone, as long as they spend the time to earn them.

I don’t believe someone will be so situationally aware of everything that’s happening that they’ll be changing guns as often as physically possible, and will choose a gun that fits their play style… and those that do want to switch it up, will be very few and far between and spending more time at a CP than in the fight itself.

(SockDog) #122

No intention of drawing comparison on impact only highlighting that small changes can blossom into larger ones, dismissing it because its impact is small is IMO a mistake.

This gives me an idea though… I’ll write up in offtopic.

(tokamak) #123

True, but you can fit them to your own preferences, the rest of your gear and to what you’re planning to do with it.

I wouldn’t say this is a good example as an on-the-fly sensitivity change is way too far removed from gun fire situation. If I need to run to a command post every time I wanted to change sensitivity on my mouse for the situation (which could change by the time I’m done) then it starts to become a hindrance.

But you do agree that having more gradation between the min and max sensitivity is better?

Bizarrely enough I had this thought already, but more regards to weapon and ability unlocks, and it comes back to time spent and effort vs reward. They’ve said the more you play, the more abilities you unlock… and in their words, you don’t get a bigger advantage, just a bigger choice to focus the way you want to play the game. With that respect, I would assume you’re against and not keen on progressive unlocks? Obviously this is different as this stuff is available to everyone, as long as they spend the time to earn them.

I personally prefer the way ET and ETQW did it, that, or just enabling everything. But yeah, the big redeeming factor is that eventually all players will have access to it. This is also a route that can be taken to redeem the pre-order exclusivity. That gun might be an extremely hard to get weapon, which means Walmart buyers have an incredible headstart.

I don’t believe someone will be so situationally aware of everything that’s happening that they’ll be changing guns as often as physically possible, and will choose a gun that fits their play style… and those that do want to switch it up, will be very few and far between and spending more time at a CP than in the fight itself.

Granted, but that means one still has a better capacity to fit their gear to their play-style. You don’t need to constantly be adjusting your gear in order to gain that advantage. There are already three fixed factors in the match, you know which map you’re playing on, you know the side of your team, and early on you know the body types of all the players which can prompt you to adjust your gear.

(DarkangelUK) #124

This comes down to the small details, so much so that I remind myself that pre-orders are only getting 1 extra gun and 1 of those is a secondary pistol (I can’t tell if the Hockler is primary or seconday), its not like they’re getting access to all of guns available to the pre-order locations. I don’t think there’s enough refinement in the vast availability of stock guns that there will be any noticeable added precision to what you’re trying to accomplish with your player with the choice of 1 more gun.

But you do agree that having more gradation between the min and max sensitivity is better?

Obviously having choice is better, but by the looks of the pre-order packs, you’re choice is just 1 more sensitivity setting which again can only changed at a CP. But we’re very much divided on the opinion of whether more choice means a bigger advantage. I put it down to ‘its nice to have’ rather than it’s more advantageous.

I personally prefer the way ET and ETQW did it, that, or just enabling everything. But yeah, the big redeeming factor is that eventually all players will have access to it. This is also a route that can be taken to redeem the pre-order exclusivity. That gun might be an extremely hard to get weapon, which means Walmart buyers have an incredible headstart.

I can agree here, and agree to disagree that if anything is exclusive, then it should be the skin given the amount of different pre-order packs there are, although 2 of the packs already are exclusive skins, while the other 2 are guns.

Granted, but that means one still has a better capacity to fit their gear to their play-style. You don’t need to constantly be adjusting your gear in order to gain that advantage. There are already three fixed factors in the match, you know which map you’re playing on, you know the side of your team, and early on you know the body types of all the players which can prompt you to adjust your gear.

At the end of the day a map is a map, and given that a single gun won’t fit every combat situation, i’d say the deciding factor on the chosen gun is the situation at hand rather than the map itself… just so happens you can use experience on a map to determine what gun would be best for what section depending on progress… and again with just 1 gun to a pre-order, it’d be foolish to stick with that 1 if it’s the situation you’re wanting to adjust to.

(H0RSE) #125

pre-orders are only getting 1 extra gun and 1 of those is a secondary pistol (I can’t tell if the Hockler is primary or seconday),

The Hockler is a machine pistol, so 99% sure it’s secondary as well.

(tokamak) #126

Oh I wish the pre-order bonus would be access to all guns right away instead of one exclusive gun. That would be fine.

The advantage might not be noticable enough for you to be objectionable, but that’s a different position than saying that it doesn’t give an advantage at all, and also completely different from whether companies should indulge in this practice in the first place. You have your standards, I’m sure there will be a point where externally gotten advantages will be too much for you as well. It’s just that for me it already starts at this point.

The rest of your post is just an elaboration on that, which I’m contend to leave it be. I think I’ve gotten my point across and as for the rest it’s just our standards that differ.

(H0RSE) #127

The advantage might not be noticable enough for you to be objectionable, but that’s a different position than saying that it doesn’t give an advantage at all, and also completely different from whether companies should indulge in this practice in the first place.

[sigh] you keep going on like you know that stats will offer an advantage, no matter how negligible. The chances that the pre-order pistol, will offer some “situational advantage” that no other weapon in the retail game (with or without attachments/mods) can cover, is slim to none.

I do not see 2 pre-order pistols, somehow offering something the other guns don’t already have. I lok at them more as a cosmetic thing rather than a gameplay one.

(tokamak) #128

Absolutely that’s exactly what I do, it crosses the line, no matter how minor it might be, it’s not something that should be ignored. I’d love to know where everyone else would draw the line considering adding advantages through more options.

(Mad Hatter) #129

[QUOTE=H0RSE;244797][sigh] you keep going on like you know that stats will offer an advantage, no matter how negligible. The chances that the pre-order pistol, will offer some “situational advantage” that no other weapon in the retail game (with or without attachments/mods) can cover, is slim to none.

I do not see 2 pre-order pistols, somehow offering something the other guns don’t already have. I lok at them more as a cosmetic thing rather than a gameplay one.[/QUOTE]

I second this. While obviously not knowing the stats of the preorder guns myself, I assume that the regular machine pistol can do anything and everything the preorder machine pistol can do. Same with the revolver. If there is a difference at all in the stats, which there may be, the impact on gameplay will still be so miniscule as to be completely unnoticable, if there is an impact at all.

(tokamak) #130

I don’t think it has come through yet. IF the gun is equal in power to the others BUT diverse in stats THEN it will be an advantage REGARDLESS of how big that advantage will be.

I don’t think I can pose it any clearer than this. You know what I am saying yet somehow you think that repeating my point is an argument against my reasoning. I draw the line at NO advantage at all whatsoever, where do you draw it?

(H0RSE) #131

I think you are just arguing semantics. If a gun is equal in power, to me at least, that means it’s equal in stats.

How can something be both equal and diverse?

(Mad Hatter) #132

I don’t know why we keep debating this. I think we’ve all made our opinions clear, and I don’t think anyone’s mind is going to be changed no matter what we say, so let’s all just chillax and accept the fact that what is, is, and what will be, will be. I mean, there’s no way you can please everybody. There’s always going to be someone out there who is dissatisfied.

Not saying we can’t discuss the relative merits of DLC and preorder bonuses, but at this point it just seems like both sides are bashing their heads against the wall that divides them.

(Nikto) #133

and that would be NO advantage?
having full availability of ALL guns right from the start when others can only choose from a couple?

(tokamak) #134

Easy. All players having access to the same amount of options, any exclusivity with gameplay implications should only be obtained through in-game processes.

Now I would really like to hear an answer to a question I’ve been asking a numerous times. How much of an advantage gained through means outside the game would be too much for you?

[QUOTE=H0RSE;244807]I think you are just arguing semantics. If a gun is equal in power, to me at least, that means it’s equal in stats.

How can something be both equal and diverse?[/QUOTE]

We’re not arguing semantics, it seems more like explaining the fundamental premises of this discussion before I finally have everyone on the same page.

Guns can have different specialties or nuances and still be equal in power. They can have the same amount of stats points, it’s the distribution of those points (over ROF, Damage, Range accuracy etc etc) that makes them different. Would a gun have more points to spent on it’s stats, it would be a more powerful gun.

It apparently is a complex issue for people so it takes a while before everyone has grasped the same basics. Some posters have argued against points that weren’t made by anyone numerous times. I do think there’s progress made over the course of the last few pages. People that disagreed with me still disagree, but at least we’re on the same page.

(H0RSE) #135

Now I would really like to hear an answer to a question I’ve been asking a numerous times. How much of an advantage gained through means outside the game would be too much for you?

One where that offers a significant advantage over other players - “significant” being the key word, to the point where there is a blatant advantage.

As far as these guns are concerned, they would have to be pretty beast for all players to choose them since not everyone is going to be using pistols regardless.

(tokamak) #136

[QUOTE=H0RSE;244815]One where that offers a significant advantage over other players - “significant” being the key word, to the point where there is a blatant advantage.
[/QUOTE]

How many options does a player receive before it becomes a blatant advantage? How big does the arsenal of equally worthy weapons/upgrades get to be?

(Reanimator) #137

All this argument is based on is speculation, sure we can argue all we want about whether or not a larger selection is an advantage, (which imo it is) but it’s not going to directly apply to the pre-orders in the least unless we get some confirmation on whether it is just a skin/cosmetic upgrade rather than a gameplay one.

My point is that we should refrain from all the mudslinging until SD gives us some info.

(H0RSE) #138

A blatant advantage is one where everyone, or at least the majority of the players/community, can pretty much agree on without needing pages and pages of discussion. Kinda like how the M60 was in BC2.

(tokamak) #139

[QUOTE=Reanimator;244820]All this argument is based on is speculation, sure we can argue all we want about whether or not a larger selection is an advantage, (which imo it is) but it’s not going to directly apply to the pre-orders in the least unless we get some confirmation on whether it is just a skin/cosmetic upgrade rather than a gameplay one.
[/QUOTE]

Obviously, I still have faith that they won’t do it.

A blatant advantage is one where everyone, or at least the majority of the players/community, can pretty much agree on without needing pages and pages of discussion. Kinda like how the M60 was in BC2.

Right, mob rule then. Still, the question was, how many optional equally valid guns are needed to make this outrageous. Is handing out 10 exclusive guns with a pre-order fair game? A handful of extra abillities?

(SockDog) #140

Kinda like how everyone swore guns were changed in ETQW patches, even in the face of SD saying no such changes occurred. Sorry, gamers are largely dumb superstitious clowns who’ll whip themselves into a frenzy and usually do so around a popular opinion rather than any actual fact. This thread is absolute evidence of that as a very simple concept is still being misunderstood due to preconcieved ideas and opinions.