Spawn Waves

(Mustang) #161

Must… resist…

Did you notice my reply above?

(Patriotqube) #162

Yes i did,

that still cant stop me from trying to get my point through tho :wink:

(Anti) #163

My parents used to have a phone like this:


It worked really well for over a decade, still would probably work today if plugged in, but I used an iPhone :tongue:

Lets bear in mind, none of you noticed the current system, that had been in since the start of alpha, until this thread started, so the impact is being somewhat overstated.

All that is being suggested is that we try some other systems now, in alpha, to see if they improve the public games without hindering the comp games. If they don’t work (and that that can be justified with reason and not just nostalgia) then we can always go back to spawn waves which are a known entity. We can even look at the mechanics differing between Stopwatch and Objective mode.

Now, staying with the more useful part of this topic, can those worried about shirosae’s suggestion expand on how the ‘exploit’ of feeding a player would aid a team? I get the concept but I don’t see the practicality of it, they sacrifice a guy to start the wave before an engagement starts? As it starts? In the hope that they all die but then get a faster re-spawn. That sounds like it’d be considerably fine timing to pull off for only the chance of a benefit, I think I’d rather keep that extra man.

(Mustang) #164

I’ve got a phone like that, except it’s red.

Wait what, oops, was meant to keep that a secret.

To be fair I just thought it was broken and that getting the movement and gunplay looked at first was the bigger issue.

(tokamak) #165

They don´t need to all die, but having the time running before the big clash happens is beneficial, perhaps even beneficial enough that it warrants the sacrifice of that player.

That´s theory though, in practice I´d say it would be such an impressive feat that it would totally validate the reward. Having one player less is a huge weakness and the entire thing could backfire if the fight takes a few seconds too long.

Still, you don´t want players reasoning like this because it´s just a highly perverse way of playing. You CERTAINLY don´t want certain individuals having such ideas and constantly giving one of their comrades a neck shot to see if it finally works this time. It´s also not unsolvable either. As I said, use smaller windows but with the same respawn time and the entire thing becomes more stable while retaining the value a more gradual respawning has to defenders.

(Anti) #166

Dystopia mod actually had a similar system to the one shirosae described, except the spawn timer went up a second for every subsequent kill after the first. So in 5v5 it’d be a spawn wave between say 10 and 15 seconds depending on how many died during the 10 seconds. That would prevent any self kill exploits (if they are an exploit) and encourage well timed and coordinated attacks, but it’s a level of complexity I’m not sure I’m fussed about.

(Kendle) #167

I think that would satisfy everyone tbh. Stopwatch has considerations that Objective doesn’t, namely the teams are not supposed to be even in SW, the match isn’t won by the team that completes the objective, it’s won by the team that completes the objective the fastest. Staggered spawns appear to help defence more than waves, which is contrary to the needs of SW, but not Obj.

(tokamak) #168

It also dampens the desired effect. The individual spawn timers are meant to have the defense cope with large losses in an easier fashion. If large groups suddenly take longer to respawn you’re back to the old image of having the entire defense team rush into the location they need to defend on the second that the attackers complete the objective.

What do you think about the clustered respawning? It’s expanding on what Shiroasae proposed.

And I don’t believe the problem is different for stopwatch. You’re still working with the respawn timer being a big factor which makes the different completion times of each team rely to some extend on luck. The current system makes both teams feel a lot more in control of how the match will pan out.

(DarkangelUK) #169

[QUOTE=Anti;424934]
Lets bear in mind, none of you noticed the current system, that had been in since the start of alpha, until this thread started, so the impact is being somewhat overstated.[/QUOTE]

I beg to differ, I knew something was ‘off’ with defense and I couldn’t put my finger on it, the lack of spawn timer for either team also kinda hid that one away as well which was sneaky sneaky. I don’t like playing defense and I think this highlights exactly why for me. I’m still curious what the major reason for the change was.

As for your phone analogy, sockdog put it perfectly well… don’t just change things for the sake of change. Desk phone to iphone was an improvement over the original… I don’t see an improvement over the original here, all I see is either a) change for the sake of change or b) you couldn’t work out why you were getting so many full holds so decided to mess with the spawns to see if that fixed it, IMO to the detriment of the experience as a defender.

(Stoffifee) #170

First: Lol @ [QUOTE=Anti;424943]self kill exploits[/QUOTE]

Seriously, selfkills are a part of the Spawnwave mechanic. If they are not prevented or limited what is wrong to proceed with fresh Ammo and full hp to the start? :confused:

Ontopic: though I voted “Yes” i think about it a little more differentiated. SD is testing. The current Spawn system in echo presumably looks simply homogeneous. And it’s not like the success of the game depends on this, at least not when we think of public-play.

Indeed, I must also say that no advantages of the current solution occur to myself really. Completely in opposite. And this has nothing to do with nostalgia generally, I simply lack some essential tactics which are possible only by spawning in waves and have a spawntimer. And ofc i HATE to spawn alone 90% of the time. :frowning:

All the same, it is at the moment nothing dramatic. For comp-play - as stated - spawnwaves are essential in my opinion. And at the latest a promod will bring them (back), if they do not find their way into the game. :wink:

Cheers :slight_smile:

(Maca) #171

I agree that there isn’t reason to worry about it, because the “exploits” and tactics that come from shirosae’s system do not differ much from the “exploits” and tactics of old spawn waves. In shirosae’s system, it’s also quite interesting how at least in comp setting when the two teams clash, they know that when the first one dies, the clock starts to tick so to speak. Although I think that the time should be at the very least around 10 seconds, to make the waves have enough players.
But I am against having such a central thing as spawns be different in such a tedious way in obj and sw. Especially since the whole argument that trickle is better for defense doesn’t hold up IMO, the co-operative defence that comes from spawning together is very valuable
Also: I would very very much like to test Shirosae’s method

(Anti) #172

[QUOTE=DarkangelUK;424964]I beg to differ, I knew something was ‘off’ with defense and I couldn’t put my finger on it, the lack of spawn timer for either team also kinda hid that one away as well which was sneaky sneaky. I don’t like playing defense and I think this highlights exactly why for me. I’m still curious what the major reason for the change was.

As for your phone analogy, sockdog put it perfectly well… don’t just change things for the sake of change. Desk phone to iphone was an improvement over the original… I don’t see an improvement over the original here, all I see is either a) change for the sake of change or b) you couldn’t work out why you were getting so many full holds so decided to mess with the spawns to see if that fixed it, IMO to the detriment of the experience as a defender.[/QUOTE]

I’m not sure any developer ever makes change for the sake of it, they always have a reason, that reason just might not always be that good :slight_smile:

In this case we found the current spawn system for defenders either gave them too fortuitous a spawn (very short) or with longer spawn times to offset that they’d sometimes have to wait too long and became frustrated. Maybe we noticed this more in DB due to the maps, maybe not, personally I think other FPS games with re-spawn mechanics have been reducing the time a lot over the years and now many players’ expectations are simply that being dead and waiting to play is not fun.

We felt the new system still kept the punishment for death but didn’t cause players playing for fun to be stuck out of the action for 30 seconds every so often.

I think we’d agree now this isn’t a good system for comp play, be that in a clan, a pug or even in some kind of ranked matchmaking. I think we still feel it’s good for public servers though.

(Patriotqube) #173

[QUOTE=Anti;424934]My parents used to have a phone like this:


It worked really well for over a decade, still would probably work today if plugged in, but I used an iPhone :tongue:

Lets bear in mind, none of you noticed the current system, that had been in since the start of alpha, until this thread started, so the impact is being somewhat overstated.

All that is being suggested is that we try some other systems now, in alpha, to see if they improve the public games without hindering the comp games. If they don’t work (and that that can be justified with reason and not just nostalgia) then we can always go back to spawn waves which are a known entity. We can even look at the mechanics differing between Stopwatch and Objective mode.

Now, staying with the more useful part of this topic, can those worried about shirosae’s suggestion expand on how the ‘exploit’ of feeding a player would aid a team? I get the concept but I don’t see the practicality of it, they sacrifice a guy to start the wave before an engagement starts? As it starts? In the hope that they all die but then get a faster re-spawn. That sounds like it’d be considerably fine timing to pull off for only the chance of a benefit, I think I’d rather keep that extra man.[/QUOTE]

Yeah yeah, a car still has 4 wheels tho which it has had for ages, not all old ideas is bad. :slight_smile: but i get what you mean

i mentioned in another thread, why not get some real scrimplayers, invite 2 of the ET NC Teams (UK has a decent team atm) into alpha and let them have a go at eachother on a sw server?, with them using Teamspeak to coordinate we would get a very good picture of what it means

would think to get a compview on the game would be great at an early stage.

does that sound daft?

(.Chris.) #174

Yeah cause that idea worked really well in ET:QW. Most used the early access to train for the inevitable launch tournaments then pissed off after money went away.

(Patriotqube) #175

Didnt know that :slight_smile: but that was why i suggested to ask NC teams as they arent in the same clans

anyway that was offtopic - sorry

(tokamak) #176

A car has four wheels not because it gives people a warm and fuzzy feelings of the good old days where cars used to have four wheels as well. Cars have wheels for the simple reason that it distributes the weight in the most safe and effective way.

There’s no equivalent to that type of reason here. There’s no main reason to let defenders spawn in waves other than that it used to be like this in times where games were slightly less sophisticated. This means that there’s absolutely no barrier to at least try to see if it can be improved.

(amazinglarry) #177

I personally worry about potentially having too many differences between mechanics or systems between comp and pubic games. They end up creating little entry barriers for players who want to make the jump from public to competition play, as the transition isn’t completely seamless. I’m not suggesting of course that there are a bunch of plans to have A in comp and B in public… but the fewer differences between the two the better is my stance.

(tokamak) #178

A car has four wheels not because it gives people a warm and fuzzy feelings of the good old days where cars used to have four wheels as well. Cars have wheels for the simple reason that it distributes the weight in the most safe and effective way.

There’s no equivalent to that type of reason here. There’s no main reason to let defenders spawn in waves other than that it used to be like this in times where games were slightly less sophisticated. This means that there’s absolutely no barrier to at least try to see if it can be improved.

(Kendle) #179

Not true, clans know exactly when they spawn and when the enemy spawns, that’s kinda the whole point, there’s no luck involved, it’s all about the timing.

I’m looking at it from the point of view of which system favours defence more. Whilst both systems have pros and cons, wave re-spawn appears on balance to be slightly less advantageous for defence than staggered re-spawns, which means for Stopwatch (and possibly Stopwatch only) wave re-spawn would be better.

I’m not sure I’d agree with that either, wave re-spawn means you almost always spawn with a team-mate, and as team-play is generally lacking on pubs anything that encourages it is to be, er, encouraged, IMHO.

(Kendle) #180

I think you mean “other than that it’s been tried and tested for over a decade”, which I’d say is a pretty damn good reason. I can’t remember ever reading a thread on any RTCW or ET forum ever, where someone has suggested, “heh, wouldn’t it be good if we spawned one at a time”, and I can’t imagine the reason for that is because no-one in 12 years ever thought of it.