Spawn Waves

(.Chris.) #121

Spawn camping isn’t the real problem though. It’s just one example where individual spawn times can be a problem, shirosae’s example is probably a more likely scenario where by an attack controls an area around an objective and only has to worry about 1-2 players strolling in at a time rather than 4-6 players, effectively the roles have reversed and the attack are now defending an area and the defence have to attack that area to regain control, either to stop a repair/hack or to defuse C4.

(tokamak) #122

Such a scenario only happens seconds from completing the objective.

(DarkangelUK) #123

How would you know? Sorry that’s a genuine question, because I’d like to know from now on if you’re posting from theory or from experience… because I never see you playing the game.

(iwound) #124

ffs its 91% lets just test it. how hard could that be.

(shirosae) #125

In the example I mentioned, after a few spawncamps we managed to bulldoze through the spawncamping medics, and flanked the objective room group. I dropped a turret facing the stairway to the container control, and another engineer covered me while I defused. And then we held the last container until time up.

Had we been able to spawn as a group, the extra time alive would have been enough to defuse both.

(Ashog) #126

From what I observed today during a clanwar, the scenario was rather how I mentioned - too hard to totally kill the defense and the constant flow of defenders delayed the obj quite a lot.

(acQu) #127

Spawn Waves ? Yes, please :slight_smile:

(SKTLZ) #128

I voted spawn wave, itr’s the way to go for defence and offence imo we shoud try it on SW! what you think anti ?

(tokamak) #129

I’m still not content with the way this topic is discussed and part of it is my fault.
What strikes me as intriguing is that by now we’ve heard two arguments against individual timers for defense:

  1. It makes defending too hard.

  2. It makes defending too easy.

I think neither applies in this context because how easy or hard defending should be can be tweaked with the spawn rates rather than changing the collective or individual spawns. So instead we should ask ourselves, which one FITS the defense the best? We all agree that waves are better for attackers. And most of you seem to converge on that you want spawn waves for the defenders as well. The reasons why conflict though.

I only really have one argument for preferring individual spawns over waves for defenders. It’s the same one that Anti started on and I don’t feel it has been rebuked in a sufficient matter to discard it. As far as I care it’s still standing so I formulate it once more.

For defenders a spawn wave has a huge disadvantage that does not apply to attackers, yet the advantage it gives to attackers does not apply to defenders

  • There’s no doubt that attackers benefit when they attack in a whole wave rather than piecemeal.

  • The disadvantage to attacking in waves is the downtime that results from the gap between the waves.

  • This disadvantage is really marginal for attackers because for them the consequence of spawning one wave too late is merely a delay in their plan.

  • There’s no real case for defenders benefiting from defending in waves. Examples are used like ‘aggressive defending’ and ‘resilience against spawncamping’. These examples are what I consider fringe scenarios that are a symptom of deeper issues like team imbalance or simply a result of one team having practically won already.

  • This means that we have yet to hear why there’s an advantage for defenders spawning in waves. If you want to completely sweep the rug from underneath this analysis then show us why it’s a good thing for defenders to have no people present at one point and then suddenly lots of people present at the other. Where’s the function in the downtime and uptime if you need to be able to hold a position every single second?

-This disadvantage of spawning in waves for defenders IS substantial. Not having enough people around because they’re all waiting for their spawn means the objective is lost already.

  • I’m not saying a severely outnumbered defense won’t get steamrolled. But from a defender’s point of view, having one or two men standing and being able to preoccupy any assault an delay it for reinforcements is a far more meaningful to a defender than to an attacker.

So to summarise

  • The job of attackers in essence to have as many team-mates as possible being present on the objective’s location (the more people present the higher the chance of completion)
  • The job of defenders is in essence to have at least one man being alive on the objective’s location. (as long as one player is standing the attackers practically can’t do a thing in most cases).

THEREFORE:

For defenders a spawn wave has a huge disadvantage that does not apply to attackers, yet the advantage it gives to attackers does not apply to defenders.

These two functionally different roles call for a different attitude, strategy and thus game development approach for each team.

Then there’s one external argument and I’ve been treating it frivolously. Individual spawns rather than a clock does mean a player possesses over less information to base his approach on. I underestimated how important this was to players and I shouldn’t have made light of it. That was lazy.

If it’s the information fidelity that is an issue, we should be looking at a way of giving equal if not more information to the player regarding spawns.

I think the solution here lies in CS:GO. CS:GO has a really functional yet simple small matrix on top of the screen showing which players are alive. Because DB works with the same team sizes and has similar gameplay, I don’t see why this shouldn’t be used in DB. In fact, with all the reviving going on I’d say that such information is even more important.

So I propose, as a means of compensation for the lowered information by individual spawns on defenders, to give players this matrix up in the screen. It’s not realistic or immersive, I’m personally not a fan of it because of that, but it does indeed lift the game to a more esports type of status. There’s merit in being able to know who’s alive at any time. Especially with the way CS’s avatars are recognisable then we can see a lot of potential for drama. Arming that C4 while knowing that you and your arch nemesis are the only players standing makes your palms all the more sweaty.

Another nice touch DB can bring to this feature is to make revives all the more visible. You can give a nice shiny twinkle on every player that gets revived and a different type of effect for a player that gets respawned.

I think this is a more interesting information distribution than a simple clock and it ought to at least make the game feel less random and hectic.

(DarkangelUK) #130

TLDR. Go play the game for more than 5 mins then come back.

(.Chris.) #131

No it means you’ve chosen to ignore two valid reasons against individual spawning, whilst not understanding them.

(tokamak) #132

Well simply saying ‘you don’t understand’ is a conversation stopper.

(Dthy) #133

Saying you don’t understand will allow people to explain their points in a clear manner, rather than creating a really convoluted argument/discussion.

(.Chris.) #134

He meant me suggesting he didn’t understand doesn’t allow for the discussion to continue. Shirosae made a great point with the team reversal situations that occur during a match which is something that happens a lot which has been dismissed. The spawn camping issue I mentioned is partly down to map design as I said but that doesn’t mean individual spawns don’t help facilitate such an occurrence from happening.

(tokamak) #135

Okay I’ll deal with the argument in a different way then.

By saying that spawn waves are better for defenders in team-reversal situations you’re basically conceding the point that spawn waves are only ideal for attackers.

And then I add to that that team reversal situations are symptoms of a deeper problem that cannot be addressed through adjusting spawns.

(.Chris.) #136

It’s not a problem, it’s a part of the game that has existed since W:ET and probably RTCW (I didn’t play it), it only turns into a problem when the defense are put at a disadvantage due to staggered spawn timers. Attackers have always and should always need to defend an objective once they control it, the only instances this doesn’t occur is when a team tries to lemming an objective.

(Kendle) #137

How has this thread got to 7 pages?

Since 2001, through RTCW -> ET -> ET:QW -> Wolfenstein 2009 -> Brink(?) both attackers and defenders have spawned in waves. It’s tried, it’s tested, it works, and probably 99% of current ET players (who will make up the vast majority of the player base for this game on launch) won’t accept or understand anything else.

Changing the spawn mechanics is like reinventing the wheel, totally un-necessary and almost certainly hugely counter-productive.

(Patriotqube) #138

i think the vote says it all

also when in scrims its quite important that you can coordinate both defence and attacks, its commonly used with /kill just before spawn so they can regroup in good conditions

WET Style for me thanks

(Mustang) #139

Don’t know about anyone else but I’m finding it confusing that the behaviour is different for each team, would much rather it was at least consistent, whatever the method used.

(tokamak) #140

I admit it has been confusing but this is mostly down to us players taking months to figure out the behaviour of both teams. Until then it seemed random and nobody actually took this mechanic into account into their playstyle.

With both teams spawning in waves matches are won and lost at the mercy of the spawn clock. A slightly different moment of respawning means a world of difference for two otherwise equally skilled defenders in the same situation. This means there’s a very strong variable going on in a match that both teams have very little control over. Sure DAUK made it seem like there was some kind of tactic in killing players before right when their spawn-timer hits. Not is this just a huge stretch of what actually happens in practice, where two equally skilled teams are already struggling to actually kill each other let alone kill each other at the right second, it’s also simply impossible in at least ETQW where the opponent’s timer isn’t displayed on the HUD.

My point is, defenders are really at the mercy of the respawn clock and attackers are not. This means that putting both teams in waves adds a huge luck factor into the mix. There’s no such luck factor present in individual timers.