Spawn Waves

(nailzor) #221

Right, but just as you say they did it for past games, there are no spawn wave at all now :o

(DJScream) #222

Voted for spawnwaves.

Though this brings the necessary selfkilling when defending. I never really liked to do that but it was mandatory to succeed. Hoping that some sort of penalty will be put to it when spawn waves are introduced. For example you don’t spawn at the next wave but the one after that so you always get the full time.

I think the current system where defenders spawn one at a time is more confusing in public games than comp games. In this system you get the feeling that people are constantly coming from all directions and I can imagine it being very frustrating. In comp you can just speak about it in voice. Also the spawn times can be talked. After all the spawns are not random, the first gibbed enemy spawns in 15 seconds and every enemy killed after that come after the last one. This is of course impossible to track in pub. You always have to check if someone runs from the spawn when you run by the enemy spawn exits.

Btw with the current system and when defending, you can wait for more teammates to spawn so you don’t have to run out alone. Of course you might have to wait a while.

(attack) #223

i feel like the post over me its simply chaotic with the current system. for me and i think for the most too,the spawnsystem in et was one of the best points , it helped to improve gameplay and forced teams to learn and decide when they have to push or backoff. this gives so many different ways to play and gives viewers and players a great always a little bit different gameplay. also im thinking about if an engi is dieng and his team 10 secs after him should he wait for them , he will ccan do nothing this amount of time.

(iwound) #224

[QUOTE=Smooth;423558]We’ve had this system since the beginning and I wondered how long it would take for this thread to pop up :slight_smile:

[B]Here’s what we have:

[ul]
[li]Attackers will always spawn in waves, although if you’ve been incapped and ‘miss’ a wave you have the option to respawn instantly
[/li][li]Defenders always have a fixed respawn time to wait which starts counting down when you are incapped[/B]
[/li][/ul]
There are a few reasons for this, I’m not the most eloquent chap in the world but I’ll try to explain them:

Typically defenders will set up around an objective and have to be ‘broken’ by the attackers. If attackers trickled in one at a time they would easily be picked off so they must push together as a team, which is the reason for spawn waves. Defenders need to be constantly resupplying the ‘stockade’ with fresh meat so arriving in waves is less of a necessity.

Another reason is to prevent the “we just wiped out defenders but they all respawned instantly” (un)luck factor which is present when defenders have spawn waves. In our system if you do wipe the defenders you know they have to wait the the full time before they can return and it’s not luck that decides whether they come back in 1s or 15s.

Yes, we accept that there is a meta-tactic of figuring out the spawn wave of the defending team and timing a push to kill them when the timer reaches maximum length, however this is not something you will often see outside of high-level clan play and even then it involves the attacking team essentially waiting around for an arbitrary timer to tick over, which isn’t fun and doesn’t make for good viewing.

We love reading discussions about this stuff and hopefully my posts makes sense to you guys.[/QUOTE]

Just a bump of this post for those who may have missed it. whether its been altered since i have no idea.

(tokamak) #225

Which is all great for attackers but completely useless for defenders. Defenders never wonder whether or not it’s the right time to defend the objective simply because the best time to defend is simply always.

(.Chris.) #226

They may wonder if it’s the right time to push outdoors to regain dominance over a choke point or in order to take back a forward spawn. Also if it’s worth trying to diffuse a charge or fall back.

(tokamak) #227

If they hold well then their team-mates will trickle back and that will turn into a front strong enough to afford a push-back. This means that individual timers will give defenders a lot more control over such matters than spawn waves would. With spawn waves you would have absolute intervals in which the objective needs to be defenders or simply lose. Without the absolute intervals every single second you hold something with a few people is a gain because every single second there’s a chance that you’re being reinforced.

(.Chris.) #228

Most likely they are getting spawn camped and/or killed with ease as they spawn individually in trickles resulting in no reinforcement, if only there was a way they could spawn together to have a better chance of not getting camped.

(Hundopercent) #229

In the games current state, without waves, it will be full holds on defense every time on every map.

(tokamak) #230

Currently only attackers spawn in waves. That’s what we’re discussing now. Nobody wants to see attackers spawn individually. Nobody.

Attackers that get to spawncamp the defenders finish the game within seconds.

That’s the thing. The whole ‘cutting off reinforcement’ is flipping around the argument by treating defenders as attackers. Defenders are ‘attacking’ the objective in order to get it back. The problem is that once an objective is taken it’s quickly completed and there’s not taking back at all.

Because objectives don’t retrace this whole issue of attackers interfering with the reinforcements paints a false picture of what’s truly happening.

(attack) #231

in et it is normal that the defenders push out before respawn,to interrupt the attacking and maybe get some kills to the attackers,that workes always fine.
secondly a spawntime helps defenders too, if you know the timings you can get fracks with timed nades airstrikes… . so spawnkill can go both sided. i dont say that the spawntimes should be that big like in et with 30 secs but 20 for defenders would be ok.

(tokamak) #232

You’re still only arguing for the benefit of making the attackers spawn in waves. This is already happening and nobody wants that to change. You can blame the unclear poll for this but it’s also an indication that you might want to catch up on the discussion held on it so far.

(attack) #233

oh sry for this, didnt noticed that

(Hundopercent) #234

[QUOTE=tokamak;432330]Currently only attackers spawn in waves. That’s what we’re discussing now. Nobody wants to see attackers spawn individually. Nobody.

Attackers that get to spawncamp the defenders finish the game within seconds.

That’s the thing. The whole ‘cutting off reinforcement’ is flipping around the argument by treating defenders as attackers. Defenders are ‘attacking’ the objective in order to get it back. The problem is that once an objective is taken it’s quickly completed and there’s not taking back at all.

Because objectives don’t retrace this whole issue of attackers interfering with the reinforcements paints a false picture of what’s truly happening.[/QUOTE]

When we played last night I don’t think I even had a spawn timer on defense. We held the attackers back the entire time.

What are the negatives of having spawn waves? The way I see it is like this.

With spawn waves you get, more strategic play with /kill, you spawn with your team allowing easier team coordination and less rambo play, and lastly, but also most important, you get to balance the maps a lot easier.

Defenders spawn every 20, attackers spawn every 10 - 15. What happens now is if the attackers, time their attack and successfully wipe out the defense they get to plant/hack their objective and set up a defense. Objectives would need to take maybe 45-60 seconds to explode/hack so defense has time to respond and try and diffuse the bomb/counter hack.

With this setup, it would be easier to complete objectives and forward progression would actually happen instead of a very long and boring full holds.

(Maca) #235

This topic has gone on for pages and I as well as many others who would wish to see spawn waves and timers have already made their cases, so I’m not going to say the same things over and over. I’m just going to say something I noticed lately.
Currently in many maps there is problem with the plant objectives. Very often the defense has no way of defusing if the teams are equal or the attackers are slightly better because the defense can not do a counter push. This is not entirely trivial, why have plant objectives if the chances of defusing are very minimal? The whole dynamic of plant objectives depends on the ability of the defense to push the attackers back, and currently in the game defense can only slow the attackers down (or full hold if teams are imba), they can never regain anything. Making plant objectives useless.

(tokamak) #236

As long as there’s one defender at the objective the attackers can’t complete it. It doesn’t really matter if there’s one, two, or the entire team standing around the objective, as long as it isn’t nobody the defenders are winning. This makes matters really absolute in nature. This means that the second an entire defending team is wiped out the attackers have basically won.

Attackers don’t have this responsibility, they’re free to attack whenever they want as long as they get it done in time. This means that the respawn wave is not an intrusive factor and because most players can’t be bothered to coordinate themselves it makes the attacks easier to control.

Whether or not one (or more) person is standing at the objective becomes really fickle when defenders spawn in waves. The respawn clock then determines a big part of the game. Many ET(QW) matches had last second saves or almost last second saves simply because the respawn timer allowed it. It basically means that matches got decided by the way the regular interval synchronised to the player actions in the game.

I think that’s a bad thing because it makes the defenders at the mercy of something they cannot control. I believe that a good shooter should minimalise the weight of uncontrollable factors. Giving defenders individual timers means that attackers can’t just kill players and hope the respawn timer is against them. They actually need to kill players within a strict window starting from their first kill because as soon as they make that first kill the reinforcement timer starts counting.

This means that killing defenders is not enough. An effective attack lands the kills as shortly after each other as possible in order to allow for the objective guy to do his thing.

What I like the most about this is that it makes the roles of each teams more distinct. Attackers and defenders both need to have a completely different mindset in the way they approach combat simply because the game no longer regulates it for them.

(BMXer) #237

Team spawn waves and put the spawn timer on the screen and all is good. It’s not something you can’t control when the information is available to you!
Learning to attack or defend properly according to your team’s spawn wave is a skill hard learned. I think its crazy to remove that aspect from the game that obviously plays such a huge role. Weather or not some players are aware of this and able to play off it doesn’t mean everyone should be nerfed.

I personally feel like team spawn waves are just as much a core part of objective based play as med packs, repairs, plants, etc.

(tokamak) #238

Delaying your death as much as possible is far more in your control than timing your death to synch with the timer.

I feel that the job of the defender is to hold as long as possible rather than to make sure he dies when it’s convenient.

(BMXer) #239

I guess thats your opinion. But if you know when your team spawns, dieing when “it’s convenient” is many times a good/better choice. Why not encourage smart play?

You are are not giving the enemy the credit they deserve… or could possibly deserve. Team spawn waves and the timer on the screen work both ways. While you think you are “delaying your death as much as possible”, in reality the attackers are waiting to put you out at the optimal time. Rather than just lemming fest 2000 with no idea when you or your team spawns…

Also, its been tested now for the entire alpha that I know of… Seems to be pretty fail to me at this point. Compare the failure of Brink(no timer) and the success of all the other objective based games that DO show the spawn timer on the screen… uhhh

(Maca) #240

Rather than the question whether spawn waves and timers should be used, I’d be interested to hear people’s ideas about something that I think was once mentioned in this thread previously.
Should the enemy spawn timer be seen as well?
I personally think this could make the system more understandable for pub players. They might start thinking about it and start learning the comp mindset and importance of gibbing. Or is this entirely dumb? Thoughts about this from both pub and comp perspective.