Spawn times

(PixelTwitch) #21

[QUOTE=krokodealer;499764]Its not luck. You need to build your push a second after enemy’s respawn. so that you force their fulltime-death.

  • if you are full-timer in current system, then you are an idiot or a very unexpierienced player.
    in kill-triggered system everyone can go full. every wave. i smell ragequits after 3rd or second 30-sec fulltimes in a row.[/QUOTE]

Why is it people only read what they want to read? -.-

The issue with simply increasing or decreasing spawn times is that it messes with the “luck” factor of the game… Especially in public play and low>mid comp play

Personally I feel even at high skill where its a valuable skill to have it just ends up so dull… Maybe thats down to the fact that over the past 2 weeks I have watched about 60 hours of ET/ETQW/BRINK cast, to see how all the systems work in comparison to each other… I can totally get why ET/ETQW were/are so fun to play at a high level but watching it just makes me struggle to keep my eyes open. Now sure if you only want other “pro” players to watch and play then there is absolutely nothing wrong with the current system (though it could be tweaked time wise). If you want it to be fun and “organised” for t he unwashed masses… I really do not see it working out mate.

(Glottis-3D) #22

Low/mid scene is 95% of player base.
and i think you underestimate both - unwashed masses, and the idial stopwatches matches without long spawntimes. (long spawntimes are also a tool to overcome maps’ flaws in balance).
Does anyone here has a late (late 2008- yearly2009) ETQW Salvage or The Ark Match from high/mid-scene?
PLZ show some gems to mr. Pixel. he is not yet convinced!

I mean. I also watched a lot of ETQW matches and we clearly watched different games!

(INF3RN0) #23

//youtu.be/tpNd3_CXomg

//youtu.be/nu1CvesdYoE

(PixelTwitch) #24

lol Inferno… Be fair dude… This is a good match but all that makes that match so good is not in dirty bomb >.<
Also just listen at the first few min of just how much you need to cut out of a game to make it “fun to play” lol.

If anything this video made me even more unconvinced >.<

(INF3RN0) #25

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;499772]lol Inferno… Be fair dude… This is a good match but all that makes that match so good is not in dirty bomb >.<
Also just listen at the first few min of just how much you need to cut out of a game to make it “fun to play” lol.

If anything this video made me even more unconvinced >.<[/QUOTE]

Linked the wrong one at the start. 4v4 stipped everything down, meant to link the regular 6on6 ruleset.

(PixelTwitch) #26

I had already seen the first (4v4) the other day.
I will watch the 6v6 in a min…

what I was trying to say was that the wave stuff works much better on maps that are so big and open…
I just feel ET/ETQW to Dirty Bomb is almost like Battlefield to Call of Duty…

well seems the masses have spoken… Look forward to my daily meat grind :stuck_out_tongue:

(Erkin31) #27

I can totally get why ET/ETQW were/are so fun to play at a high level but watching it just makes me struggle to keep my eyes open. Now sure if you only want other “pro” players to watch and play then there is absolutely nothing wrong with the current system (though it could be tweaked time wise).

I would like to have a game fun to watch, but what I really want is a game fun to play. The spawn wave system gives a real interest to the teamplay.
The spawn waves system is not difficult to understand, I think that viewers will quickly understand this system. A match on LoL or SF4 presents much more subtleties to understand than the simple system of spawn wave. And I don’t talk of Quake live with its map awareness/items spawn/player spawn position.

But I’m agree with you to say that ETQW is not best FPS to watch even if I consider it as the best multiplayer FPS. I simply think that the combo of Fast FPS + teamplay is not the perfect format for streaming.
I don’t like to play to CS but I like to look some competitions on it, the format is more adapted (no respawn, slow movements, short rounds etc.). Quake live is my preferred FPS to watch, but this is the concept of a duel between 2 players which makes it ideal to watch (even if the game is fast, we are always at the heart of the action).
For me, with ET and ETQW, matches need to be recorded in replay modes then edited to be really enjoyable to watch.

About the size of maps, ET/ETQW have bigger maps but in these games, we can move faster than in DB, thanks to the trickjumps, knife running and vehicles (for ETQW). But yes, maps are too small in DB.

(prophett) #28

[QUOTE=PixelTwitch;499772]lol Inferno… Be fair dude… This is a good match but all that makes that match so good is not in dirty bomb >.<
[/QUOTE]

You are absolutely right. What makes a lot of matches so good is the quality of the map, and comparing an amazing map like Salvage to anything in Dirty Bomb isn’t a fair comparison.

If you took the last two objectives in Salvage and managed a port it would be amazing. So many different ways to attack the outer GDF base - left, right, and center walls. Left and right trickjumps and window sneak. Likewise the inside - two spawns for defenders and a capturable forward spawn. Great map with some great memories there.

ps - PROPER SPAWN WAVES! :smiley:

(potty200) #29

Utter crap. How are the echo stats going to show a fair relfection of how the game will work out if the spawn times are going to change anyway?

My opinion is defenders NEED a longer spawn time than attackers. Right now it almost feels as if getting those picks are meaningless on attack.

(chippy) #30

[QUOTE=potty200;499809]
My opinion is defenders NEED a longer spawn time than attackers. Right now it almost feels as if getting those picks are meaningless on attack.[/QUOTE]

+1 Combine that with the fact that the defenders have a very short sprint to the actual objective on top of that it takes some serious cracker jack timing and quite often a near complete wipe in order to complete it. Specially on the first objective on waterloo. Which is also another reason to add some sort of capturable spawn thing going on.

(Bitey) #31

I think that this debate really needs to focus on how you want the timer to work. So far I’ve seen my little link for how I think a spawntimers should work and then from everyon else a bunch of random talk about LUCK SKILL SPawnertimers. Can we get a debate about the numbers, details, and how-to of the old spawn systems from splash damage titles?

We’ve had this debate countless times and I’ve even made some spiffy spreadsheets to showcase a few points of how you can game a Static spawn wave system. This might not be correct anymore but it can still be appiled if we have two dedicated spawn timers for atk defense which could be any combination of numbers.

You can also abuse the current spawning mechanic with fore-knowledge of how the spawn waves of both sides progress throughout the match. For example:

[th]ATK[/th]
[th]DEF[/th]
[th] Difference[/th]
[th]Wave[/th]


0
0
0
1


21
27
6
2


42
51
9
3


63
75
12
4


84
99
15
5


105
123
12
6


126
150
9
7


147
177
6
8


168
204
0
9

This is an old chart from the nexon forums. It plots out how you can game the current spawn system over the course of the first 3.4 min of a game. It showcases how the spawn waves can be gamed and how to use them over the course of a match. The advantage is the difference between the two spawn timers as the game progresses and as it maxes out and shrinks over time. The only thing which might change this up is the defense “Clear” spawn after an objective is lost. At least I think that’s what happens now :stuck_out_tongue:

-edit and just to be clear linking videos doesn’t really showcase how the spawn timer works over the course of a match. Please explain those competive videos and how they are using the spawn waves in that game!

(prophett) #32

Due to the poor spawns at the moment, every map I have tested is biased toward the defending team.

Spawn Rule

If the time taken for Defenders to get to the objective from spawn PLUS the difference in spawn cycle is LESS than the time taken for Attackers to get to the objective from their spawn, then it’s a DEFENSIVE map. If it’s MORE then it’s OFFENSIVE.

i.e. If a player from each team both die near the objective, which one is more likely to get back there first?

Here’s a couple of examples to clarify:-

Radar - Axis spawn is 10 seconds slower than Allied. However, it takes almost 10 seconds to get to East Radar from Axis spawn and only about 15 from the command post. Difference in travel time (5s) is less than difference in spawn cycle (10s) - Offensive map.

FuelDump - Axis spawn again 10 seconds slower than Allied but it takes Axis about 10 seconds to get to the FuelDepot whereas it takes Allies about 30. Difference in travel time (20s) is greater than difference in spawn cycle (10s) - Defensive map.

Remember, Competition requires Offensive maps, which is why Radar is played in Clan Wars and FuelDump isn’t.

I tested travel times from DB maps. Since the base spawn time is 20s there is no difference in spawn cycle, so that does not play a factor (until the times change, obviously).

Victoria (last objective)

Travel time to objective for the defenders: 11 seconds
Travel time to objective for the attackers (from wall): 20 seconds
Difference: Defense can reach the objective 9 seconds faster
Result: Huge defensive bias on this stage

White Chapel (last objective)

Travel time to objective for the defenders: 8 seconds
Travel time to objective for the attackers: 18 seconds
Difference: Defense can reach the objective 10 seconds faster
Result: Huge defensive bias on this stage

Bridge (1st objective)

Travel time to objective for the defenders: 10 seconds
Travel time to objective for the attackers: 13 seconds
Difference: Defense can reach the objective 3 seconds faster
Result: Slight defensive bias on this stage

Canary Wharf (1st objective)

Travel time to objective for the defenders: 9 seconds
Travel time to objective for the attackers (from wall): 14 seconds
Difference: Defense can reach the objective 5 seconds faster
Result: Moderate defensive bias on this stage

Adjusting times can balance the maps and reduce the meat grind. Having times of 15/25 or 20/30 for attackers/defenders would flip the map in favor of the atacking team.

(Glottis-3D) #33

the defense bias is not only due to difference in travel time, but also due to map layout: crossfire points, height advantage etc.

(prophett) #34

Absolutely.

(BomBaKlaK) #35

Yeah ! maps need some big real tweaks

(INF3RN0) #36

I’ve always said that the maps are the most impacting. Though the ETQW maps were very large, the interiors were very manageable even with 5-6 players. The layouts however were very solid overall on most of the infantry maps, which is the most I’ll say should definitely be conceptually transferred over to DB.

(xdc) #37

RIP, best game by splash damage.

The only reason it died was because of ranked servers killing custom content. Also they could of created a mod that would switch the strogg and gdf on all maps, etc it would of basically created a whole new gameplay for the maps

(BomBaKlaK) #38

Yep the problem of the Scale on DB is a major issue, all is so small …

(Erkin31) #39

[QUOTE=xdc;499898]RIP, best game by splash damage.

The only reason it died was because of ranked servers killing custom content. Also they could of created a mod that would switch the strogg and gdf on all maps, etc it would of basically created a whole new gameplay for the maps[/QUOTE]

There were too many competitors in 2007 (TF2, COD4, UT3, Crysis)

(potty200) #40

Question to SD: Most of the community here who want to see the spawn times changed are people who want to play competitive. Is it possible I assemble a team of people who have different backgrounds to come up with the “Ideal” configuration and trash it out with one or a few of you on teamspeak some time? Competitive rules need to be made and very soon. With waves and waves of people being let in and more scrims being laid down. This is the time to make a rule set that will globally be used. I am not saying my opinions are correct but I am sure, with knowing most of the community personally, I will be able to collect views of a great deal of people and teams to come up with the “Perfect spawn system” and merc balance in competitive play. I am not talking in publics, I feel spawn waves are fine in pubs as not many people actually care for the objective right now. Unless the objective rewards the players more in publics, that will always be the case.