Solving QW's custom content

(Nail) #61

The real solution is to drop ranked servers, then everyone can run custom maps, just like W:ET, stats (for those who need them) can be third party solutions just like W:ET.

(Stroggafier) #62

@shirosae, why are you arguing? Calling pubbers children that live in a fantasy world is working for you? Insisting folks play custom or keep quiet is working for you? Have you tried finding someone at SD or AV to take on this challange and failed, or do you speak for SD or AV?

Others have commented on the possible, while you have presented the status quo, debated semantics and details and taken a generally condescending view. I don’t want to be rude, so I’m sorry to say, its getting a bit tiresome.

If you recognize the problem with moving the community forward is bigger than merely creating beautiful maps. And you realize that “the stick” you’re using is not working, then give it a rest. I’m saying, try something else.

I’ve heard “the stick”

  • get rid of stats/ranked play then folks will play custom
  • there’s no profit in it, so don’t bother
  • it’s the pubbers’ fault for being childish/stubborn/unrealistic…

But, I’m also starting to hear support from others for:

  • an “official” release to allow custom on ranked
  • an automated install/uninstall
  • looking for ways around the double restart problem

Now, if we could debate the merits of:

  • a proces for certifying maps, standards, and guidelines
  • finding a champion
  • bringing AV and SD to the table
  • any other ideas for blending the styles of pubbers with mappers/modders?? (Brink seems to be going in that direction, maybe they see an improved ETQW as competition?)
(shirosae) #63

I’m arguing because the assumptions you’re basing your argument on are false.

If pubbers make the kind of statements that they have made during the lifetime of ETQW with regards to custom content, then yes, they live in a fantasy world, because those assumptions aren’t true. It doesn’t ‘work’, because it’s not some machiavellian attempt to get something. It’s a statement.

No, for two reasons:

  1. The phrase ‘is working’ makes no sense whatsoever. It’s a statement, not a mind control device.

  2. I’m not insisting that people play custom or keep quiet. I’m telling people who display an interest in custom maps that they need to play them if they want their requests to make any sense and be taken seriously.

Find someone at Splash Damage or Activision who are willing to educate the pubbers so their false assumptions about custom content can be fixed? I’m pretty sure they also got tired of I WISH NEW OFFICIAL MAPS.

What’s tiresome is that you’re not reading anything that’s been said to you. The ‘condescending’ comes from the fact that you’ve had the flaws in your premise explained a whole bunch of times now, and you’ve continually refused to address them.

The problem with moving the community forwards is that the community is more interested in perpetuating myths about custom content than it is actually trying the stuff to see for itself. There is no way to move that forwards, without physically entering their homes and mashing their stupid faces into the keyboard until they’re willing to actually loook at reality with an open mind.

[QUOTE=Stroggafier;207011]I’ve heard “the stick”

  • get rid of stats/ranked play then folks will play custom[/quote]

I didn’t say this. Although if there had been no stats from the beginning this would have worked.

Activision aren’t going to make an expansion because there’s no profit in it. I personally don’t care about profit.

It’s the pubbers’ fault that no mappers take them seriously, which is what your elitist complaint was all about.

[QUOTE=Stroggafier;207011]But, I’m also starting to hear support from others for:

  • an “official” release to allow custom on ranked[/quote]

Good, so ask them to get Activision on the case.

For the billionth time, this already exists.

This already exists.

[QUOTE=Stroggafier;207011]Now, if we could debate the merits of:

  • a proces for certifying maps, standards, and guidelines[/quote]

With no community to test and develop maps, it needs to be done in-house by SD or AV. AV aren’t willing to spend any more money on it.

Suddenly, this whole thread makes sense.

SD have left Activision. Activision still own ETQW. SD can’t work on ETQW without legal permission from Activision. Activision aren’t interested in doing more to ETQW. Activision were never interested in supporting ETQW, as the non-existence of an advertising campaign suggests.

Yes. Educate the pubbers by continually refuting their nonsense over and over and over until they learn to actually research what they’re interested in, instead of assuming that the fantasy which only exists in their imagination is an accurate representation of reality.

This. Won’t. Work.

(.Chris.) #64

In agreement.

(Tanzverbot) #65

I can imagine that it’s tiresome for people to correct all of your false claims, be ignored and then see you repeat those very same false statements again two posts later. But, if this is also tiresome to you, why do you keep on doing that?

(Donnovan) #66

The sapient man know truth is always greater than wath he know. Truth statements are a matter of his pisicological condition, and his sence of ambition.

Based on the text above, the sapient man has:

a - Lot’s of truth.
b - Mainly, no truth.

Answer is *

(iwound) #67

Donnovan wtf are you smoking? Stop messing with my head.:rolleyes:
Im now going to my happy place. :magicpony:

heres my solution. If somehow you could sabotage the standard maps only. leaving QW fighters with only one solution. maybe hack the filters results. ok im grabbing straws.

(Apocalypse_Pony) #68

And that is the only way to breath new life into custom content and QW in general. Now, just to convince all of the server hosting clans and individuals to make the switch.

If only they could grasp what going unranked (w/Pro) would mean. Freedom. Freedom to add new maps. Freedom to alter gameplay. Freedom to stay 100% pure vanilla, have working stats tracking and just save a few bucks on server rentals.

Freedom to cater to specific desires. How about a no-fly server, for those who hate getting owned from above. The people who rage quit due to tank-in-the-hole on the final obj of Area 22 would love a no heavies on last objective server.

Let your imagination go wild. A version of Quarry that has a 3 second power cell install time. New upgrades (always wanted to see a combo APT/AVT turret). And the holy grail of QW custom content, a GDF vs GDF mode, so everyone can finally stop spamming F5!.

It would be a beautiful thing. As beautiful as a running Tapir. :stroggtapir: (Do love these emoticons)

And all we have to do, is give up official ranked status. Now, back to the much easier task of creating a time machine.

(light_sh4v0r) #69

To be fair, I’ve been having the idea of simply asking server owners of the big popular servers to give up their ranked servers and create custom ones instead. If they announce it right and advertise it, I think it’ll draw many in.

(Susefreak) #70

In TAW we try and we are barely able to succeed with that.

A trick that we’ve tried is getting the custom servers to show up as ranked servers, but that too hasn’t really come far to be frank.

(light_sh4v0r) #71

That might be illegal…

(dervykins) #72

When you take into consideration the current number of frequently used custom servers, and the stated results from multiple server owners who’ve tried to run custom map servers and gotten boned, it might make sense to conclude that there are not enough active ETQW players who actually want to play custom maps all of the time to keep those servers populated. There may be enough vocal forum posters to make it seem like there is a need, but as we can see that does not equate to players showing up on your server and that tends to matter to the people ponying up the dough.

As someone who spends his own money and time to run servers for another Quake game that has no official support anymore, I imagine that people who try to run custom map servers for ETQW and get such a piss poor turnout would instead decide to get more for their money (players on their servers) instead of trying to push something that there isn’t (and probably never will be) a demand for, at their own expense.

After seeing how one sided that some of the official maps can be on ranked servers, I can’t imagine spending dollars to cater to a tiny (but vocal) crowd that wants what would probably amount to even more unbalanced games with fewer players.
(as a rule, customs aren’t as well balanced/polished due to a lack of bugtesting and feedback and a lower overall level of technical proficiency with the tool set than the official mappers had)

The return on investment is pretty nonexistent there unless you are a custom map diehard or someone who makes them. Those that seem to be all about making custom maps are probably better served using their time to make maps for games where people will play them instead of trying to strongarm the ETQW executables and the community into doing what they currently do not do well.

btw, is there anything other than anecdotal evidence that actually supports the “Ranked Servers & Stats = No custom map players” conclusion? I see it parroted regularly but I’ve never actually seen what I would consider a logical argument supporting it as the only possible reason that so few people currently bother with custom maps.

To me, it seems like you’re blaming the game for what people choose to do with it and their time.
(the “guns kill people” fallacy mentioned earlier in this thread and then buried under trollspam)

(shirosae) #73

[QUOTE=dervykins;207100](as a rule, customs aren’t as well balanced/polished due to a lack of bugtesting and feedback and a lower overall level of technical proficiency with the tool set than the official mappers had)

The return on investment is pretty nonexistent there unless you are a custom map diehard or someone who makes them. Those that seem to be all about making custom maps are probably better served using their time to make maps for games where people will play them instead of trying to strongarm the ETQW executables and the community into doing what they currently do not do well.[/quote]

What you say has some truth to it.

The big advantage community-made stuff has is that with an engaged community, you get an exceptionally rapid turnover time, so updates can be iterated through incredibly quickly. It does take effort, but you can get all sorts of special things coming out if the modder/mapper is willing to go with whatever works instead of beholding to some preconceived notion of what’s right.

ETQW really doesn’t have an engaged community, so that kind of system isn’t going to happen. Nevertheless, the people who mod for ETQW already have a significant number of the skills to mod for other idtech (most notably Brink), so I believe (though I haven’t asked) that a fair number are hanging around modding for ETQW so they can develop their skills before Brink arrives.

None of this is a good argument for getting the pub community involved in custom maps, but hopefully it does explain why we’re still here mapping away.

Largely it’s the response the community gave when they were being asked to try custom maps.

They’d make a post asking for new maps, and we’d tell them about the custom servers, where everything could be autodownloaded. They’d say they wanted ‘official’ maps only, because they didn’t want to spend ages installing maps. So, we’d explain that autodownload was on, and they wouldn’t need to spend any time.

…and they’d say that really they just wanted maps that were balanced and fun to play and that meant official. So we’d show them stuff like Free Spirit City and Maridia, and suggest they try them out to see how they rated.

…and they’d say that they really wanted maps which were fully finished and tested. So we’d show them maps that had gone through several iterations, where the mappers had moved onto other projects.

…and they’d say that they really wanted custom maps running on ranked servers.

Invariably, inevitably, the demands would home in on this: ranked servers.

It’s the stats, man. Not everyone certainly, but a very, very significant proportion of the ETQW pubbers were too interested in stats to bear playing on a server that didn’t have them. We had the same problem when running unranked vanilla servers too (before promod and custom maps, you could run them on a proper box instead of an overloaded GSP so the server ran without the hitching and stuttering that some ranked servers had/have.).

(Susefreak) #74

btw, is there anything other than anecdotal evidence that actually supports the “Ranked Servers & Stats = No custom map players” conclusion?

Just the other day I was on the TAW ranked server and asked people if they want to play some custom maps. I got 2 replies of people who wanted to, I got 7 replies of people who were weary of custom maps due to the fact that the maps don’t have official support while ranked servers do.

Basically a large amount of people make the conclusion Ranked=Quality games

(tokamak) #75

Ranked servers are great, they ensure there always pure servers available.

(light_sh4v0r) #76

You can always add a ‘pure’ filter then, instead of ranked.

(Stroggafier) #77

Yes, the main premise, as I have said a few times before, in players minds is that Ranked=Quality. But the whole arguement runs much deeper than that.

Ranked and Stats go hand in hand. Ranked means a standard set of parameters, a known benchmark against which players can assess themselves. Stats are simply the currency of that system. Remove the ranking and stats lose their value. As we know from experience, systems of currency can fail. Failure can be seen as stat whoring among other signs. Keeping the ranked system and fixing the stat system requires insight and sanction, neither of which is easy to do. So, the stat system stays badly implemented.

One might argue for the removal of ranks as an easy repair, but that is like arguing for non-regulation as a repair for institutional misuse. Most players would see that as a failed idea as recently demonstrated in other institutions.

From the perspective of the regulators, ranked pub is the vast majority of play, while, as lamented, custom is a small fringe. We might say that the fringe is trying to tell the majority they are wrong. The argument might be seen as “Candy is bad for you, so we are going to take it away”. Apparently, the majority are having none of it (not the candy, the argument :smiley: ). Also, I believe this view is too benign.

Indeed the fringe see themselves more as an enlightened few. They know that stats are bad and would like a chance to demonstrate that point. Lets make that concession for a moment. It then requires that if they are the Enlightened Few, the rest of players are the Unenlightened/Dark Masses. The argument might be seen as “Once the Masses see that tobacco is bad, they will stop smoking”. Unfortunately, some would say this arguement is less than whole, as its missing a critical aspect.

That is, the Enlightened few have an alternative (unranked custom play) and they would like to see this alternative shape the Dark Masses. Stats are simply in the way. One might argue this places the Enlightened Few into a category better described as Evangelists, which, of course, would make the rest a Flock. The arguement might be seen as “We know that Stats are evil, you will play unranked servers and be saved from these evils” or, to extend the tobacco analogy, “Once the Masses see that tobacco is bad, they will start smoking our Acapulco Gold”. This might be going too far, and so I won’t make that arguement here. :wink:

The alternative is to keep the regulations (Ranked Servers) and benchmarks (Stats) and to adjust the system (Pure/Vanilla/Expansion) to fit the fringe (Custom maps) into the main body.

(tokamak) #78

At least one that is obvious enough.

The main point is, once the developer actually start endorsing maps through this people will automatically become interested.

(timestart) #79

Custom map servers are pure. In fact last time I checked (yesterday) there were only 2 unpure servers running.

(light_sh4v0r) #80

By pure you mean the ruleset then? Because you try convincing my client that custom map servers are pure when I launched the game with the regular executable :stuck_out_tongue: